a possible answer for the drow problem

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Chongo for the win... I've been at a few other servers with multiple start points. They're empty. It's not that they don't have many players on the server. It's just that you can't find anyone, so you end up building a DD with an AC of 45 to go solo things with. Not very fun, and zero roleplaying.

I like the idea of Hlint; it works. Maybe starting characters at different locations based on race or class... Druids and rangers at the campfire, arcanists outside of Moraken's, bards in the Surge... That sort of thing.

ZV, it's six months and a character of 10th level or higher.

[Wraithdur]

that would be better than the other option........

(place a catapult at the spawn point, it activates on new characters, catapults them a distance dependant on the rolls of the crazy gnome controlling it)

[ZeroVega]

Thanks for the info Stephen. Been gone so long I forgot.  

[Millan]

ZeroVega - 9/4/2006  1:09 PM

4. Yes yes yes they are (along with Aasimar) the most powerful subrace in Layonara.

Not to nit pick =P, but I want to make clear there are more powerful races than drow which we can play here. The ECL is suppose to show the strength of PCs. Drow are only +2 ECL, there are ECL +3 out there. IMO, the strongest PR is a Snirfneblin by far. All though halfgiants lack the SR, they are amazingly powerful given the low magic of Layonara (they are also +3).

[Deacon]

Yeah, but you throw in the natural resistance to spells along with some good spell resist items and a Drow can quickly become on par with an ECL +3 or higher.

Well said Chongo!  Good post.  I do agree that each server should have a central hub that draws the player base too, and i further agree that this hub should be easily accessible to everyone.  However, I also see the need for Drow starting in a separate location.  I REALLY like Ramanon's idea of having the Drow start in the Underdark.  The only problem is, finding that playerbase to RP with.  I played on a server called Lands of Lore, and they had multiple spawn points.  I ultimately left because there was no way for the players of each race to meet up and find each other.

I think Layonara would be able to pull something like this off though, because the GM team genuinely cares about what goes on here, and the playerbase is stinking massive.  I think that it would be possible for Drow to have a starting point in the Underdark, with access to the surface and easy access to the central hub town.  One of my only complaints with Layonara, is the fact that even though I am a Drow who hails from the Underdark, and misses his home dearly, I have only seen the Underdark one time, and then it was on a GM quest and we met a Black Dragon.  I want to be able to travel there on my own and do quests there, and see the obsidian walls of Olath Chath.  I want to gaze in the eyes of the statues of Baraeon Ca'duz.  I want to go into the spider shaped temples of the Left Hand of Black, and make sacrifices in his name.

Get the picture?  I absolutely LOVE Drow, and I want the same things that a lot of the players of Good Aligned characters want but for some reason am unable to attain.

What would I do?  I would have a separate underground world that would allow players who choose to play the monster races could live and play at without even venturing to the surface if they did not want to.  However, since there are multiple exits from the Underdark, I would have one or two of these exits close enough to the central hub that players could still reach it.  It would be interesting to see this happen, because it would make people want to play Drow the RIGHT way more often...and would force those who wanted to "defect" to have to go through some heavy RP in order to get that way.  It would also open up the lines for the surface dwellers to refuse service to those evil ones.  But, that's where this hub comes into play, since the town is neutral to any and all.

This all sounds well and good, but I have no idea how much work this would put on a team which already has a plate full of things.  But it would be nice....

-EDIT-

Sorry if I was rambling, I'm kinda tired and can't really discern what I'm typing...

[Chongo]

Yeah, it's neat, the idea of starting them in the UD, but I still just don't see it doing much else other then to alienate new drow players. Bear in mind that in all this said... the server I ran had multiple spawn points and it was an utter disaster building playerbase because things were simply too big and too spread out. So I'm obviously jaded, bear with me . That said, the problems I see in this:  - Persistant PC Location defeats the entire issue. You'll still have drow and other 'I don't belong' races gravitating to the server hub. - The only time they'll see this place is upon initial creation, where they'll be alienated and confused because typically secondary spawn points are not as obviously built as the server primary. - It's a subrace, and an ECL one at that, so it will be regulated to the point that there will be no chance of a sustainable population in that spawn. Leading to confused new drow, lack of RP opportunities, and generally something that can't sustain itself. That population will never exist. - Once you link UD areas to the surface you either get a UD 'pod' of an area or two, or you get a fast-track link to UD areas that are supposed to be quite difficult to get to for balancing purposes. And if you make it a one way link to the central hub, then you have a spawn point that still means nothing other then a sidestep into their identity for a breif moment to be followed by daylight and clean Hlint benches.   That said, I think the goal here is twofold. 1) Create a realistic initial identity for this monster race. 2) Alleviate the issue of not belonging in Hlint and attempting to lump them into their own melting pot.  So, this would be my proposal, for future or current projects. Figure out if you're going to maintain monster races that aren't generally cohesive with society, if so, do the following. Stick with a central hub that all players start in directly. Let's just consider this a city, like Pranzis. All players start in the Pranzis-like city. Now, create an underground. Orcs, Half Giants, Ogrekin, Goblins, Tieflings, Duergar, Drow... all the rejects that don't belong on city streets smacking high fives with the humans - they all start here. And it is in the same city, right underneath the spawn point for all the normal PCs. Create an atmosphere suitable to this scenario and a city background to support it. Maintain PvP rules as they are, but create this 'barrier' to promote cultural roleplay in a peaceful 'you don't belong in that dark alley, that's the monster tavern' sort of way. Make the underground very fitting of the idea of having monsters living in it. I'm thinking the atmosphere or feel you get in the CODI Sigil Interior tiles (http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=55636). You know, it's the bad part of diagon alley of Harry Potter. Harmless, but not your sort of people.  This maintains all the players in a central hub. More importantly, it pools the populations so that the 'pretty' and the 'ugly' races all have a sustainable environment to roleplay in.  Things to watch out with something like this: Gang behavior. "Let's go rile up the humans'. But there's really no other middleground. You either choose to stay anti-PvP in all aspects and force a precedent of ignoring the cultural strife altogther, or you create that atmosphere, maintain anti-PvP, and hope that everything people are preaching here stands true, and that they can roleplay cutural strife in a mature, interesting, and enjoyable way.

[Weeblie]

Deacon - 9/6/2006  7:20 AM

Yeah, but you throw in the natural resistance to spells along with some good spell resist items and a Drow can quickly become on par with an ECL +3 or higher.

Spell resistance doesn't stack... It's always the "highest one" that counts.

Which mean that a mid-level drow cleric (okay... druid could probably be possible too, but... eerrh... drow druid? *shudders*) wouldn't benefit from the racial SR, except as a backup SR...

[Niles09]

I must admit Ive always thought the reason we had to make a background was because our chars should have that and not just to describe who their mummy and dad was... Zan's background explains how she escaped the underdark and why she is good, look around and you might discover the same for the other drows chars around.

[Drizzlin]

Weeblie - 9/6/2006  12:10 AM

Deacon - 9/6/2006  7:20 AM

Yeah, but you throw in the natural resistance to spells along with some good spell resist items and a Drow can quickly become on par with an ECL +3 or higher.

Spell resistance doesn't stack... It's always the "highest one" that counts.

Which mean that a mid-level drow cleric (okay... druid could probably be possible too, but... eerrh... drow druid? *shudders*) wouldn't benefit from the racial SR, except as a backup SR...

Not to mention Svirfneblin have spell resistance as well. This is what they get.


As standard gnome except as follows:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Strength, -4 Charisma (ESA +2 DEX, -2 CON, +2 WIS, -4 CHA)
Spell Resistance of 10 + 1/level
Darkvision
+2 to Search and Hide checks
+2 Universal Saves
+2 Dodge Modifier to AC
Blur as a spell like ability
Blindness as a spell like ability
Light Sensitivity
ECL: 3

Not only do they ahve spell resitance, they have a universal +2 save to all splls, +2 AC. They are more powerful that Drow, and thus an ECL 3.

[Pen N Popper]

Would someone volunteer to right up a set of guidelines for drow PCs as well as non-drow PCs that come into contact with drow?

I think that if we can all come up with, and agree to, some RP framework to play off of we'll end up with some fun situations.

My biggest gripe with drow is just the inconsistency their presence brings to the environment.  If they're to be treated friendly, that's fine but let's all commit to RPing that.  If they're to be treated with outright suspicion and hostility at first meeting and perhaps need to be vouched for by a trusted ally, fine.  It's really not the drow players that are providing the inconsistency, it's the rest of us boneheads. :-)

[Dorganath]

This is a place to start: http://nwn.layonara.com/Dark%20Elf
  That's the 99.9999% description for the Drow subrace. The remaining 0.0001% of the drow population are exceptions to the general description given. Those that fall into this very minor subset are either killed in the Underdark or somehow escape that life...though never truly escape the darkness in their blood. A Drizzt-like Drow is among the rarest of the rare.
  Pretty much all of the surface and underdark races have had a dubious history with the Drow in general. Elves especially, with their long lives and long memories, should not ever, ever, ever trust a drow on first sight...if at all. Of course, there are exceptions to this as well, but in general, there is no reason for any degree of trust between Drow and elves at all, and the same holds true for Drow and pretty much everyone.
  Drow shouldn't even really trust each other.
  When we had Dragon Called PCs, there was an assumption that the dragon called them for a reason, and thus people treated them differently. The "elves with really bad sunburns" trend was born. We no longer have that mechanism, so the presence of Drow  appearing among surface towns and cities should be seen with suspicion, if not with outward hostility.

[Deacon]

Chongo - 9/6/2006  12:48 AM  Figure out if you're going to maintain monster races that aren't generally cohesive with society, if so, do the following. Stick with a central hub that all players start in directly. Let's just consider this a city, like Pranzis. All players start in the Pranzis-like city. Now, create an underground. Orcs, Half Giants, Ogrekin, Goblins, Tieflings, Duergar, Drow... all the rejects that don't belong on city streets smacking high fives with the humans - they all start here. And it is in the same city, right underneath the spawn point for all the normal PCs. Create an atmosphere suitable to this scenario and a city background to support it. Maintain PvP rules as they are, but create this 'barrier' to promote cultural roleplay in a peaceful 'you don't belong in that dark alley, that's the monster tavern' sort of way. Make the underground very fitting of the idea of having monsters living in it. I'm thinking the atmosphere or feel you get in the CODI Sigil Interior tiles (http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=55636). You know, it's the bad part of diagon alley of Harry Potter. Harmless, but not your sort of people.  This maintains all the players in a central hub. More importantly, it pools the populations so that the 'pretty' and the 'ugly' races all have a sustainable environment to roleplay in.  Things to watch out with something like this: Gang behavior. "Let's go rile up the humans'. But there's really no other middleground. You either choose to stay anti-PvP in all aspects and force a precedent of ignoring the cultural strife altogther, or you create that atmosphere, maintain anti-PvP, and hope that everything people are preaching here stands true, and that they can roleplay cutural strife in a mature, interesting, and enjoyable way.

 Wow.  I REALLY like that idea.  It's well thought out, and it keeps that central hub like was being stated.  I think it would also work well if the NPC's in both areas gave beginner quests, but not to both the above ground and underground.  Would also make sense to have merchants and such in the Underground, which would only sell to undergrounders and vice versa.

[ZeroVega]

I like it. The biggest problem I've seen is... well... first it's that I personally think there needs to be limits to the number of drow right off the bat (like there were in the beginning) and require a massive bio (like in the beginning... take a look at Ed's for Zaraun). People should put a lot of thought into drow. If they're good, why are they good. Are your reasons really important to the characters development. Are the events that led up to it really that important to you or are they just excuses to get that "good" alignment.

Not only that, but what about those select few (I hope there are only a few) dark-fleshied characters who are "good" (and I'm talkin alignment). The same problems are still going to exist for them that exist now. Either there will be too much trust or people won't know how to play the untrusting. The biggest biggest problem though, is that drow flat out SHOULD NOT be allowed into towns without someone leading them in. Period. If I'm a guard for Hlint. My family has been devastated over the past twenty years by drow attacks and I see a lone drow approaching. Yeah, I'm gonna plunk the guy right in the crotch and give him something to think about. Problem is, it won't happen. (And that's no one's fault, just won't.)

ZV the Drow Lovin' Smack Talkin Muffin Huggin Hoolagin-

[Deacon]

At least not now.  I cross my fingers that the Team has some good things planned in the future, and I have faith that they are not going to let me down.

[Vyris]

Vyris' guide to drow encounters

Player meeting Drow is:

Human, wemic - reaction depends on the human's alignment, range from distrust to hatred.

Hal-elf - a happy middle between human and elf, which is still pretty unhappy.

Elf, dwarf - start with maniacal need to slaughter them, move on towards forming a war party as the situation warrants.

Halfling, Gnome, Brownie - Fear to hatred.

Other 'moster' races - Fear to nuetral.

Easy way to limit the number of any 'monster' race, be it Tieflings to Drow... let them be killed by players, and double the odds of getting a soul strand if they die in PvP.  Might not be such an attraction to play a Drow if you are in constant fear of getting permed by that rabid dwarf cleric of Vorax. Lets see how many Tieflings make it through their first encounter with a paladin... Whatever. I am sliding off on a tangent now, but if you want to add a penalty thats real, and effective theres not much else that works that doesn't involve a bunch of custom coding.

I suggest that in all seriousness because I think the playerbase here could handle it. If restrictions were in place on those who were ALLOWED Drow, like those who are allowed CN alignments they would know what to expect and be able to handle the RP required. Plus I am sure we would have a rule such as no serial killing, which would dive right into the griefing zone, etc. but...

Bottom line is either we, as players all act like adults and treat each other with respect, or things get regulated by the GM team, and then aspects of RP are verboten! I personally would love to be able to have the option to outright attack Drow if it fits within your characters RP (A dwarven battle priest of Vorax in my case). And I am pretty sure that something like that could be handled between myself and the other drow player without any wounded feelers. Trading insults then walking away isn't my style, put up, shut up, or just walk by and keep your mouth shut.


Vyris

[ZeroVega]

I agree with Vyris there too. This isn't a huge problem that NEEDS GM intervention to fix it. (Though that would probably work, it would most likely turn out in an unsavory way for all of us.) It's something that the playerbase could pick and "fix" themselves. It's common sense really (which seems to have become uber rare in this world). I'm convinced that Layonara has enough of it to make things work though.

Be cool peoples...

[Dorganath]

ZeroVega - 9/6/2006  7:05 PM  
  It's common sense really

 (repeated for emphasis)

[AeonBlues]

Vyris - 9/6/2006  4:52 PM

Easy way to limit the number of any 'monster' race, be it Tieflings to Drow... let them be killed by players, and double the odds of getting a soul strand if they die in PvP.  Might not be such an attraction to play a Drow if you are in constant fear of getting permed by that rabid dwarf cleric of Vorax.

As if the giants and ogres were not bad enough...  Now I have a cleric of Vorax to worry about.

Luckily this idea is so ridiculously against the grain for what Layo is all about, that I will never have to worry about my character getting perma killed by a PC.

While I am not touching this argument with a ten foot pole.  I will brake out the elven foot pole, and state the following.

The persistent idea in this thread that the drow have it easy.  That they do not encounter enough animosity.  That they are treated kindly from the get go, is greatly removed from how drow PC are really treated on Layo.  Since my character Cymeran was summoned by the dragon.  He has interacted with hundreds of character who were afraid of him when they met.  He has been sneered at a myriad of times, along with other assorted *looks of hostility and or animosity*  He has also been ridiculed, ignored, threatened, and even puked on.

Further more, it is my opinion, that the disadvantages to being a drow on Layo balances out the advantages quite nicely.  The advantages have been laid out nicely already by the way.  The social disadvantages on layo are so extreme that my character will not step foot into the Leonin arms and tavern, in fear of racial persecution.  Oh, and then you meet the drow, that consider my character a traitor to their race.

Actually it gets a bit overwhelming, to experience so much hatred from characters that claim to be good.  

Hatred is a tool that evil people use to corrupt good people into doing evil things, like murdering people.

I strongly suspect this is why there are so few drow PCs which stay active for a long time.  I have seen many drow PCs get started and mysteriously disappear.  I would say that maybe 10 to 20% last a RL month.

Now, while I don't take any of this personally, my character has been a never ending challenge for me to role play, as role playing a drow should be.  I have gained countless hours of great joy, and satisfaction from these challenges.

I also strongly support the idea of making all special races, even brownies, subject to the same restrictions as playing a CN character.

AeonBlues

[Acacea]

Sorry, they can purchase things from merchants who supposedly loathe them, walk freely and openly in any town anywhere no matter how many times its been sacked, without ever fearing anything from the multiple guards that may be present. They can use the crafthouses, inns, benches, they can elope with elves. Any resource that is open to a human is open to a drow, plain and simple. That's not harsh. They can continue to prance openly under the noses of NPCs who would throw them out, and the best you can do is glare about it or make some grumbly noises. This is only a natural progression from various elements in place, as Gulnyr pointed out, but just because it was bound to happen, does not mean they "have it hard."

The only real harshness is the danger of hurt feelings OOC, and if one is a person who cannot quite separate Role-play from Real-life, then he or she should not play a reviled race.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Acacea - 9/6/2006  11:01 PM

The only real harshness is the danger of hurt feelings OOC, and if one is a person who cannot quite separate Role-play from Real-life, then he or she [big]should not play a reviled race.[/big]

(repeated for emphasis)

Do I owe you royalties, Dorg?