a possible answer for the drow problem

[Wraithdur]

yes, it's that time of the day again: time to complain about the drow!
the real problem isn't that there are drow, just that drow are sometimes awful at RP.
all you have to do is put limits on who can play them (which the creator has done by stopping all new sub-race characters), a more long term solution is to make sure that only experienced players (who actually can RP) are allowed to create drow characters, have rules similar to CN limitations.
or (this could work), only allow a player to create a drow PC when a DM has seen the player RP well, and can deal with the drow circumstances.
DM sends the player a PM on the forums saying (for example):
because of your briliant roleplay (demontrated yesterday), i have decided that you are capable of succesfully playing a drow character and can cope with the dificult RP situation.

see?

[Talan Va'lash]

Many drow players are good RPers. I do not think a blanket statement, "drow players are bad RPers" is appropriate.

The "drow issue" is a semi-complex one, due to many factors such as:

- Hlint's role as a THE gathering point of all characters regardless of type
- Limitations on evil characters
- % of the player base who would like to play a drow character

I think the second is really the most important factor that resulted in the unique issue we're having on layonara with drow right now (and to varying degrees in the past.)

I have seen the similar issue of too many drow (or various "rare" subrace) on many other servers that offer similar options to players. However, since a vast majority of other servers allow evil characters and many allow PvP in some less restricted form than is available on layonara, their problem ends up quite different, even though the population dynamic problem is the same. They end up with too many drow that are almost all evil and sometimes end up with bad situations that the DMs don't intend to be representative of the reality of the story they're trying to tell. Like, a bunch of drow players are on at the same time and they decide to go attack the main "good guys" city, and... end up winning. Despite the fact that the city is supposed to be really well guarded and occupied by all the PC hero's etc. hehe.

So, we have a more unique problem than just too many drow. Though that in and of itself is often a problem.

Hmm, I don't think I really have a point I'm trying to prove, just pontificating on the issue as a whole.

In conclusion, pontificating is a good word, and sleep deprivation causes one's prose to tend to wander.

Thank you.

[DMOE]

Wraithdur - 9/1/2006  11:02 AM  the real problem isn't that there are drow, just that drow are mostly awful at RP.

 No the real problem is postings like this. It is rude and offensive which demonstrates a disturbing lack of respect for your fellow players.
  If you wish to be taken seriously please adress your fellow players in a manner befiting this forum.  
  The DM team work very hard for balance within the world and there have been stops on races before that were in no way linked to how the present characters were RP'ed.  
  The point was raised that we should limit a few races as we tend to suffer from influxes, some people play them well, some badly...That can be said of character classes too!

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Good reply DMOE.

[Wraithdur]

in what manner should i make complaints like this?

[crazedgoblin]

Like everything in life the minority gives the rest a bad name i have met some really good Drow RPers and they play their character well but it does strike me odd that every drow i meet is friendly . But having elvis' ghost nudge you about while he is in stealth mode makeing you move around when not wanting to is not RP and annoying.

[Wraithdur]

i am sorry and i now realise that most bad RPers just stick out more, there are (now that i think about it) quite well RP'd drow characters.
but what are we supposed to do about the minority of bad RP'ers?

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Remember that many players are new to the whole concept of RP when they start out on Layonara. Give these people time to adapt. We all started somewhere.

[Ne'er]

This solution, albeit temporary, seems to work just fine for me:

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29613&posts=1&start=1

A while back, roughly a year ago drow submissions were closed for a long time. Over time, the drow started to fade a bit and only a few drow were around after that. I think this will work just as well as that solution did.

[DMOE]

Wraithdur - 9/1/2006  12:02 PM  i am sorry and i now realise that most bad RPers just stick out more, there are (now that i think about it) quite well RP'd drow characters. but what are we supposed to do about the minority of bad RP'ers?

 Define a bad RP'er...  I'll give an example...  I have an elven character...She doesn't act very elven...She acts quite human in fact  So you met her in Hlint...See she doesn't act very elven and decided I'm a bad RP'er  Of course if you RP'ed with her for a length of time you'd discover that she actually grew up as one of only four elves in a human settlement, thus explaining why she doesn't act very elven at all  But if you don't RP with her and go off that first impression, I'm a bad RP'er...  So ban me for not playing a very elven elf when you have no idea of my character background or why she acts’s that way?  Yes...I suppose every community will have it's share of what could be considered by some as 'bad Rp'ers' I tend to find from experience that people who don't enjoy RP leave Layo very quickly thanks to the fact that we are a RP world, something the DM Team strives hard to promote.  But I for one never want to see anything done about 'bad RP'ers' as what makes a bad RP'er is very subjective and not something we should police.  The DM team do what they can to ensure alignments, character classes (where appropriate, like say paladins) are all being played correctly and that in my mind is the ONLY thing that should be being done.

[Wraithdur]

of course.
you are correct.

[Eight-Bit]

Drow to me are just like Tieflings. They're funny lookin', they're unusual, they don't belong here, and yet there they are. So what are we supposed to do about them? Well, everyone seems to trust them at first, but maybe we just have an excess of polite characters. If you look around, and look at how people interact on the server, it's easy to notice that a great number of people (and espically characters) are indeed very polite. So, it is not hard to assume that the characters being played here are not so much accepting of the Drow than they are having a quiet vigiliance while they're around. If they are evil, they will eventually do something evil. If they aren't, they will eventually stand out as good; or atleast a limp-wristed neutral character.

[Guardian 452]

*tosses his drow / dualist idea out the window*  ah well  

When we 1st had these new races and such the amount allowed was limited.  I hope it goes back to that once things even out again.


My possible answer to the drow problem.

Play your character as they should when dealing with Drow... if you character IS a Drow... play them as you submitted them.  


Have fun!

[Drizzlin]

I happen to RP a Drow, and I am possitve if you ask anyone who has RPed with Daralith, I RP a drow. Now I know you are not singling me out, I am simply saying I know where you are trying to say, or at least I think I do.

Not that I agree with you completely, but I do agree there is a huge problem with drow on layonara. I do not feel the problem is with "bad RP". I feel the problem is with Drow following Gods that a Drow should never follow in the first place, especially Drow following elven Gods. Now I know the next argument will be, "well I wrote this up, and my Drow did this to become good and was accepted by Toran...".

I feel that the only way a Drow should be allowed to follow a god outside of a Drow god, should be done in game via DM approval and it should be as hard to obtain as an Evil alignment. Drow on the surface should/are not born there, they come from the underdark where they should only know of and follow underdark gods. There summoning to Hlint should be there first introduction to gods outside of Drow and that is why it should be a quest done later.


My suggestion to what I consider the problem to be, is that Drow should not only be limited on approval, but they should have strict restrictions on what Diety they can follow. That change alone would limit Toran following Drow =P.

If Drow were limited to following a Drow diety, you would see less of what I am assuming you call "bad RPing drow".

[Talan Va'lash]

Drizzlin - 9/1/2006  2:03 PM

There summoning to Hlint should be there first introduction to gods outside of Drow and that is why it should be a quest done later.

No one is summoned to hlint anymore, the dragon is gone.

In time I imagine the starting area(s) will grow to refelct this (though if I had to make a guess, I'd say it might not be until nwn2.)

Disclaimer: The above information is personal speculation and not really based on anything official.. or.. anything at all.

[Acacea]

Perhaps it's appropriate for them to worship another god. Whether they're accepted as a cleric or something is a different argument, but if they're not a divine-oriented character I'd probably let a misguided dwarf worship Grand if you gave me enough backstory. (Let's not test the exaggerated example though...)  Drow RPing drow is as much a problem as anything else, as the populace cannot RP their reaction to drow RPing drow. The only reason all the good drow are actually a problem is because of how they are welcomed, which is with open arms. One of the huge penalties of playing a Dark Elf should be the RP baggage of being driven out of towns, unable to purchase things from merchants, forced to hide their face or cling to shadows, but none of this is the case and instead they are essentially elves with sunburns, buying from anywhere and everywhere, openly drow in Hampshire, Spellgard, Hlint, wherever. I feel that there are simple solutions to this that don't necessarily need to restrict them to evil-only, or pull them as a playable race, or even require massive amounts of paperwork.   The reason I said drow RPing drow was as much a problem as anything else is because whenever I see it, it is done just as openly as the other drow. A drow being good openly and undisguised and roleplaying that he is welcomed all over the world is annoying yes. A drow being threatening, dangerous, and offensive openly and undisguised is to me just roleplaying that the NPCs wouldn't burn them at the stake. While the former has always seemed a little metagamey to me, the latter one is blatant abuse of AI in my opinion.   I don't care if we have good drow. I don't care if we have offensive drow. I like offensive. It's more interesting. It is the neglect of the consequences that are first troublesome and then tiresome and then just plain annoying to me. This was not meant to be a direct reply to the post above this one, as I don't recall the "open and undisguised abuse of no PvP" applying to them, just that forcing all drow to be jerks isn't necessarily a solution since there would still be no consequences for it.  A Toranite drow paladin who acts annoying lawful good is not bad RP. He's a Toranite paladin. It's what his character does. Calling the good drow who RP being good drow, "bad RPers" is not appropriate. Should there less of them? Probably. Will there be? They'll fade off for a time like G said, yeah. It's when there is a blatant lack of acknowledgement of the things that would happen as a result of their actions, that cannot, that it drifts into another zone. I personally think it would be easy to add things to help this even without PvP or evil, along with some things to help paladins keep their oaths without constant supervision, but for right now, no drow submitted after yesterday will be approved, as they and all the other subraces are on hold.     So for the moment, that is your Answer to Drow.

[Drizzlin]

Acacea - 9/1/2006  1:46 PM   I don't care if we have good drow. I don't care if we have offensive drow. I like offensive. It's more interesting. It is the neglect of the consequences that are first troublesome and then tiresome and then just plain annoying to me. This was not meant to be a direct reply to the post above this one, as I don't recall the "open and undisguised abuse of no PvP" applying to them, just that forcing all drow to be jerks isn't necessarily a solution since there would still be no consequences for it.   So for the moment, that is your Answer to Drow.

  You don't have to be "evil", "rude", or "offensive" to be a Drow. It is a mind set. Drow believe they are better than the rest. Drow come from evil gods, even here on layonara. My suggestions are not to "force" drow to be "jerks". It is to have people who play a Drow, keep the mind set of Drow, or at least have to start off with the mindset at character creation. Just like the alignment for evil is what you say "forced" to be RPed by the DMs, so should the race of a Drow.   Right now, on Layonara, I only know of one active Drow (outside of myself) who RPs (IMO) a Drow. Most Drow RP just as you said, an Elf with a sun burn. That doesn't make them "bad RPers", which I peronsally never said anyone was or even mentioned. I enjoy RPing with most of these people, I just dislike their concept of a drow.  If you look at the list of Drow on line sometime, there are in fact clerics of deties that IMO, a Drow should never be. I also agree with you that too many players open their arms to Drow, when they should be treating them like the rumored murdering evil creatures they are.   And to say again, i NEVER said anyone "RPs Bad". That was the original poster.

[Acacea]

Acacea - 9/1/2006  1:46 PM
This was not meant to be a direct reply to the post above this one,

As quoted, out the door but that pretty much says it all. No I don't think they should all be goody goodies, yes I think they should be more drow-y, I was simply stating that it is not just the "mindset" that is the problem, as if they act with that mindset and there are no consequences whatsoever, the problem still exists.

[Gulnyr]

Drizzlin - 9/1/2006  4:03 PM

Drow on the surface should/are not born there, they come from the underdark where they should only know of and follow underdark gods.

Just a little confused, here.  Why would Drow know nothing about the surface?  Humans and Elves and Halflings have heard of Baraeon Ca'Duz, so why shouldn't Drow have heard of Toran?  If you're going to fight the surface folk, you need to know what resources the surface folk have, right?  Surely that includes information on their holy artillery.

EDIT:  Besides that, there is a well-established Drow goddess with temples on the surface.  Her name is Az'atta.  There are probably more than a few Drow followers who staff her temples, and I would imagine they have families like everyone else, so there could be Drow born on the surface.

[Drizzlin]

Acacae,

Sorry =P I was running out the door when I read and replied to your post. I misread it.

Gulnyr - 9/1/2006  2:50 PM

Drizzlin - 9/1/2006  4:03 PM

Drow on the surface should/are not born there, they come from the underdark where they should only know of and follow underdark gods.

Just a little confused, here.  Why would Drow know nothing about the surface?  Humans and Elves and Halflings have heard of Baraeon Ca'Duz, so why shouldn't Drow have heard of Toran?  If you're going to fight the surface folk, you need to know what resources the surface folk have, right?  Surely that includes information on their holy artillery.

EDIT:  Besides that, there is a well-established Drow goddess with temples on the surface.  Her name is Az'atta.  There are probably more than a few Drow followers who staff her temples, and I would imagine they have families like everyone else, so there could be Drow born on the surface.

Drow know about the surface, but they know what they are taught before they raid the surface. Drow are taught all races are inferior and their enemies. From birth, in Drow society, they are trained to kill. No other race, as a whole is so deceitful, war minded, and evil. Most other races, even though they are evil, don’t slaughter their own just to do so. The Drow that are different or weak are slaughtered quickly, most at birth. Sure Drow know of Toran, but they only know that his followers need to be slaughtered and are weak. Drow are unlike every race out there. I suggest reading up on Drow.  

http://nwn.layonara.com/Dark%20Elf

Keep in mind this is the normal mindset of a Drow. This is the way most Drow should be with a few exceptions. Like you said, "humans, elves, and Halflings have heard of Baraeon Ca'Duz", not they know everything about him. This is a quote from LORE and in the link above... "The surface world is hardly aware of the nature of Dark Elven society". So sure some may know, but not everyone.

Unlike the surface world, Drow do not teach the ways of Toran in their cities. Drow are not able to go down to the local temple of Toran in their underdark cities and listen to his clergy preach. This is why Drow only know Drow gods. Unlike the surface, a Drow can only learn what the clergy of their evil Gods tell them. What they would be taught is a twisted view point on the other faiths and how evil those faiths.

As far as Az'atta, she is a Drow god and should be one of the small few IMO that Drow should be allowed to worship. IMO Drow who do worship Az'atta are the ones that should be on the surface and following her "good" ways. These Drow would have been the ones who ran away from the underdark to seek a place of acceptance.