a possible answer for the drow problem

[AeonBlues]

In direct response to Acacea's comments:

I am not on the GM team, and not a writer of world plot and story.  My only real point is, that I enjoy playing a race that is challenging to RP.  Would you want to ruin the gaming experience of people who play dark elves?    If you never RP with Zanirth, then you are missing out on a top notch roll played character.

I would like to hear more input from world story writers as to how common folk perceive the very few drow who walk the streets of surface cities and towns.  

Maybe I am too naive, but I just think that if put your society on the “good axis” then you should allow people a chance for redemption.  A chance to prove themselves as a beneficial part of your society.   I would think that since my character is both charismatic and persuasive, and hands merchants big sacks of gold in exchange for crafting oils and gems, ummm, that they would have built some kind of reasonable business relationship over the years. Maybe the guards would would know my character's reputation.  Maybe even my character saved that guards life at one point in time.  You would be amazed about how much appreciation people give you after saving their lives.

Of course the idea of hiring someone to do my shopping for me, has some interesting RP potential.  The challenge of organizing sit down strikes, hunger strikes, and a few acts of sabotage would be interesting also.  Luckily this is a fantasy world, and I can spend most of my time slaying undead, and then hiking across the desert with a half dozen shovels.

Acacea - 9/6/2006  8:01 PM

The only real harshness is the danger of hurt feelings OOC, and if one is a person who cannot quite separate Role-play from Real-life, then he or she should not play a reviled race.

Which is probably why 90% of our dark elves don't make it past their first RL month.  I am guessing 90% by the way.

AeonBlues

[Vyris]

AeonBlues - 9/6/2006  8:06 PM

Vyris - 9/6/2006  4:52 PM

Easy way to limit the number of any 'monster' race, be it Tieflings to Drow... let them be killed by players, and double the odds of getting a soul strand if they die in PvP.  Might not be such an attraction to play a Drow if you are in constant fear of getting permed by that rabid dwarf cleric of Vorax.

As if the giants and ogres were not bad enough...  Now I have a cleric of Vorax to worry about.

Luckily this idea is so ridiculously against the grain for what Layo is all about, that I will never have to worry about my character getting perma killed by a PC.

Layonara isn't about anti-PvP, it's about anti-PK. PK'rs would sit and wait at the campfire outside Hlint for people to log on and gank them. Layonara is about the RP experience, which in my opinion is hampered by my inability to feed any drow I'm able to get my hands on through a meat grinder. That doesn't mean Berdin would sit and wait for Drow to walk by and attack them, but... If he happened to be out and about and encountered a Drow, there would be hellfire and brinstone a-plenty. This would apply to Orcs, Half-giants, and if I thought I could get away with it, priests of Az'atta and quite a few wizards as well, which is ALL entirely within Berdins RP.

I guess it rubs me wrong that as per my character bio Berdin spent the better part of 30-40 years fighting the Drow in the tunnels of his clans mines, and now, since he's on the surface he's restricted to sneering and threating, which, the recipient is likely to respond to by mocking me and hiding behind the FACT that I can't do a darned thing to them. Dwarves aren't the type to tell you what a lowly worm you are, if they are going to expend effort in your direction it's going to be with an axe. I understand why, because PvP always gets out of hand, and there is far more constructive things the GM team can do with their time than make sure that we aren't out just hunting other PC's down and being jerks.

While I am not touching this argument with a ten foot pole.  I will brake out the elven foot pole, and state the following.

Doesn't matter how big the pole is, if your gonna chime in, just chime in.

The persistent idea in this thread that the drow have it easy.  That they do not encounter enough animosity.  That they are treated kindly from the get go, is greatly removed from how drow PC are really treated on Layo.  Since my character Cymeran was summoned by the dragon.  He has interacted with hundreds of character who were afraid of him when they met.  He has been sneered at a myriad of times, along with other assorted *looks of hostility and or animosity*  He has also been ridiculed, ignored, threatened, and even puked on.

Drow, Tieflings (which are MY favorite race by the way), orcs, half-orcs, half-giants... All of them have it pretty easy, considering they are all pretty nefarious stock.

Further more, it is my opinion, that the disadvantages to being a drow on Layo balances out the advantages quite nicely.  The advantages have been laid out nicely already by the way.  The social disadvantages on layo are so extreme that my character will not step foot into the Leonin arms and tavern, in fear of racial persecution.  Oh, and then you meet the drow, that consider my character a traitor to their race.

Those players who strive to play a GOOD Drow ARE traitors to thier race. Lets take everyones favorite Drow.. Drizzt *gag* He aint gonna be welcome in the underdark until mephisto and Lloth are havin a snowball fight. A Drow PC is never going to make amends and go live back in the underdark, it's just not within the mechanics of the game. You could RP it and retire the character, but thats about it. As Acacea says, Drow can do anything, anywhere, that any other race can do. Thats not being penalized.

Actually it gets a bit overwhelming, to experience so much hatred from characters that claim to be good.  

Imagine how overwhelming it would be if the people who sneer at you were instead really after your blood. Imagine if the townspeople who exist but aren't represented as NPC's due to server/game engine limitations had a chance at a lone Drow in their town. It might not be pretty, but to draw a RL parallel, WWII was 60 years ago, and guess what, Germans still aint real popular in places like Poland, Holland and France.

Hatred is a tool that evil people use to corrupt good people into doing evil things, like murdering people.

You can insert any adjective that describes an emotion or a school of thought in that previous sentence and find people that agree with you, it's an opinion. Hatred is a learned response brought about by repeated reinforcement of a negative image. The Drow on Layonara (and anywhere Drow exist in an RP setting) are bent on the destruction of the surface dwelling peoples. Repeated, persistant agression by a race of people WILL result in the hatred of that race by the recipients of thier aggression. Hatred is not evil, hatred is natural. It's not popular, or always desireable, but it is, and always will be. The nanosecond a 'people' lose thier capacity for hate they WILL be the victims of a less pacifist society.

I strongly suspect this is why there are so few drow PCs which stay active for a long time.  I have seen many drow PCs get started and mysteriously disappear.  I would say that maybe 10 to 20% last a RL month.

I strongly suspect that they realize that being a drow aint at all like tearing a page from an R.A. Salvatore book, ECL penalties suck tremendously at low levels, and if you don't have time to do three quests a week than that level 10 'wall' takes you a lot longer to get past. They see their freinds begin to pull away in levels and get frustrated, then give up.

Now, while I don't take any of this personally, my character has been a never ending challenge for me to role play, as role playing a drow should be.  I have gained countless hours of great joy, and satisfaction from these challenges.

Glad you are having fun with it. I don't think I've ever RP'd with you, but then again, since I can't follow through on what I feel to be my logical RP is regarding drow I just tend to ignore them.

I also strongly support the idea of making all special races, even brownies, subject to the same restrictions as playing a CN character.

And there, at last we find some common ground.
AeonBlues

Vyris

[Acacea]

http://nwn.layonara.com/Dark%20Elf

Mysterious, elegant, dark and deadly, they are feared and hated by all the races of Layonara. They are masters of magic and treachery, trusted by none, not even each other.

When Dark Elves come to the surface to raid, they come at night, and every child of Layonara has heard the whispered tales of the Dark Ones even before they have been officially warned of Those Below...

I don't think this thread's intent was to ask, "Hey, wait, do the common people actually hate drow?" It's one of a thousand complaints over time reminding people that yes! They do! Most of the comments on this thread (which is kind of moot at this time) acknowledge that and either say it is well handled, or how it can be handled better. Dorg posted. Players of drow have posted. You don't need to drag GMs and writers in here to post it again, just search the forums for "drow." The view of the surfacers towards drow has been posted gods know how many times by a huge amount of people.

I'm not saying that people can't learn to accept one that has proven his or herself, or Lucinda forbid, deny someone their RP. We're talking about the vast majority of people on Layonara who DON'T have those years of experience saying, "Whatever, I can kick his butt if he tries anything." They are afraid and hateful, and rightly so. Please let's not bring the "we should all love each other" IC arguments out of game, to apply back in-game...it doesn't make any sense.

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun. It's actually the exact opposite. It's not about forbidding exceptions, either--it's a reminder of the rule that the exception is for. I really dislike the definition and perception of an entire race being changed because a few people think maybe they're okay, after all.

[Gulnyr]

AeonBlues - 9/7/2006  12:08 AM

Would you want to ruin the gaming experience of people who play dark elves?

Nope.  I want to make it better.  I don't want Drow players to have a good time, I want them to have an awesome time.  I want them to know that when they earn the trust of another character, they have EARNED it, and that it wasn't just someone making a new buddy in town, who just happened to be an Elf with a bad sunburn.  

Maybe I am too naive, but I just think that if put your society on the “good axis” then you should allow people a chance for redemption.  A chance to prove themselves as a beneficial part of your society.   I would think that since my character is both charismatic and persuasive, and hands merchants big sacks of gold in exchange for crafting oils and gems, ummm, that they would have built some kind of reasonable business relationship over the years. Maybe the guards would would know my character's reputation.  Maybe even my character saved that guards life at one point in time.  You would be amazed about how much appreciation people give you after saving their lives.

See the red?  That sounds cool.  But when have you ever not been able to do business with a merchant?  When have you ever not been able to wave at a guard like he is your pal?  You never really earned it, you just decided your character was friendly enough to do that.  Maybe your character is stunningly personable, which would be great, but we'll never really know.  I am all for Drow working their way into surface society, and, as you say, proving themselves beneficial.  That should be a feat of roleplaying akin to achieving an Evil alignment.  As it stands now, though, it's not even slightly necessary.  Drow are automatically "in".  

Which is probably why 90% of our dark elves don't make it past their first RL month.

I really think Vyris is closer to the mark on this one.  There are a lot of casual players here, and trying to work past the ECL without a lot of quest time is rough.  It's tough enough with the standard classes.  Also, yours is the only post I remember that says Drow have it bad enough.  Most posts, now and in the past, have said it's not hard enough, and that Drow are too easily accepted, and those by players of Drow characters.  It may just be that playing a sunburned Elf isn't what they were looking for, so they dropped the Drow. *shrug*

[AeonBlues]

Gulnyr - 9/6/2006  9:57 PM


I really think Vyris is closer to the mark on this one.  There are a lot of casual players here, and trying to work past the ECL without a lot of quest time is rough.  It's tough enough with the standard classes.  Also, yours is the only post I remember that says Drow have it bad enough.  Most posts, now and in the past, have said it's not hard enough, and that Drow are too easily accepted, and those by players of Drow characters.  It may just be that playing a sunburned Elf isn't what they were looking for, so they dropped the Drow. *shrug*

Yah, now that I think about it, the ELC +2 is a heavy penalty.  If I wanted to power game a character on Layo, I would play a human.

If a player does not think drow have it bad enough, then they have not had the honer of playing a drow.  The drama that comes out against our drow characters is a never ending ox turd in the face.  And if you can't earn people's respect, then forget it.

It is also my opinion that if you make it harder on the drow, you will be basicly making the race unplayable.  At a certain point it will beccome more work then it's worth.

I seriously doubt I would play another drow on Layo.  A deep gnome cleric of Baryl, now we're talking layo 2.

AeonBlues

P.S. If you think I lag the server whe my character loads now, wait till I have to hire someone to buy my crafing suplies for me. Yah, I need 50 leather pouches, 50 flasks, 20 juice bottles ....  Here is 5000 gold, keep the change.

[Acacea]

I strongly suggest you read the other posts on this thread and other threads before assuming what the majority of drow players, and people who have interacted with them, think of the situation. I'm glad someone has found it enough. The vast majority happily agree that it is not. "Please, make it harder on me--if I wanted to be hugged I would have played a stinking elf!"

I'm not really sure how else to point this out. If a drow not bothering with even a token attempt at subtlety, such as a helmet or gods even a hood, can become a licensed crafter in Port Hampshire or the capital, and preach tolerance on the streets without being dealt a glare from the authorities, let alone a heavy smite, they do not have it hard.

If ever a drow begins to be wonder at the (rare, I feel) negative reactions to his undisguised terror of the Eternal Night, I humbly propose that (s)he Put On a Helmet.

[Gulnyr]

AeonBlues - 9/7/2006  1:41 AM

The drama that comes out against our drow characters is a never ending ox turd in the face.

This sounds like a Lucindite confronting a Toranite, not anyone confronting a Drow. Not only here in this post, but also in-game; that's all it sounds like.  Speaking of that...

As if the giants and ogres were not bad enough... Now I have a cleric of Vorax to worry about.

Why should a Drow character not have to worry about a Cleric of Vorax?  You want drama?  There's your drama.  A Drow should be drowning in a sea of drama, not having a few petty squabbles before returning to his picnic lunch outside the bank in Hlint, bare face turned up to feel the warmth of the sun as a butterfly lands gently upon his nose and giggling children dance gaily about him.  "O gods above!  Would that I need not return to the drudgery of mine tasks within the craft hall this eve!  Woe is the life of the common man!"  

Alright, I got a little carried away.  But my point is valid; a Drow should be concerned that everyone could be, and probably is, out to get him.  A few confrontations now and then are nothing.  That happens to any character with strong convictions.

At a certain point it will beccome more work then it's worth.

Maybe so, for some.  How many Evil characters are there on Layonara?  Is that path more trouble than it's worth?  Most people probably think so, but there are some who stick it out and earn that alignment.  Not only is it a real achievment, but the server is not overrun with Evil characters.  Playing a successful Drow should be a similar achievment.  Drow are hated by everyone.  It should be very difficult to survive on the surface.  It should be very difficult to play a Drow.  

If you think I lag the server whe my character loads now, wait till I have to hire someone to buy my crafing suplies for me.

You're not thinking enough about the consequences of being Drow.  If merchants won't sell to you, you can't even purchase a crafter's badge (they can't be transfered between characters, which can be thought of IC as requiring some sort of verifiable identification on the badge, so you can't buy one for someone else).  Even if you could fake one, it's unlikely you would be allowed to enter the craft hall, anyway.  This is where great PnP skills like Disguise and Forgery would come in handy...  Anyway, I understand you already have the crafter's badge, but you aren't going to be shut out of the shops any time soon, so it's really a moot point.

[AeonBlues]

Why not be afraid of a cleric of Vorax?  Because Layo is not a PVP server.  Honestly, you all sound like a bunch of thugs at a hick town bar, "We don't take kindly to your kind around here."  Sounds great when a bunch of thugs are beating up on one drow, but we know how this escalates.  THe drunk thugs wander out of the bar, and a dozen dark elves go to work on them, and then the thugs sober up infront of the bind stone.  Then there are more drow burnigns, more ambushes, you get the picture?  If you say it's ok for a cleric of Vorax to kill a drow, then it becomves ok for a drow to slay a cleric of vorax, and you will get a server were the older characters are perming the younger ones out of existance.  While my character would nevver kill an innocent in cold blood, I am sure you would get some drow that see any young cleric of Vorax as a threat to be taken out while they are sill weak in power.

As as far as the merchants and crafthalls are concerend...  I suspect that would take more programming time then it is worth, if it is even possible..  More importantly, it would realy make the drow an unplayable race of PCs.  Besides craft hall certifacates, there are also many things merchants sell that characters must have access to.  Like spell componets, canteens and other basic suplies.  What about temples?  If new characters could not access temple merchants, then drow clerics would not be able to get the holy symbols they need.  Not to mention he complexity around issues like, Toran is friendly with Az'atta....

Oh and by the way, being a cleric of Az'atta, my character can't realy hide himself.  Technicly, he has to display a symbol of Az'atta at all times, to ensure that anyone that needs protection, aid, or healing can idendify him as a cleric of Az'atta and get help.  Being a dark showdy figure that hides under a hood, offering help to anyone who needs it jusst doesn't work.  If you want followers of Az'atta to hide in the shadows and not show their faces, then you would have to re develop Az'atta as a deity.

AeonBlues

[Gulnyr]

AeonBlues - 9/7/2006  4:45 PM

Why not be afraid of a cleric of Vorax?  Because Layo is not a PVP server.

That's right.  It isn't.

Honestly, you all sound like a bunch of thugs at a hick town bar, "We don't take kindly to your kind around here."

Show me where I said PvP against Drow should be allowed, please.  I'm pretty sure the only things "we all" have said is that there is something screwy with the way Drow are being played and treated, and that things are too easy on the Drow.

Sounds great when a bunch of thugs are beating up on one drow, but we know how this escalates.  THe drunk thugs wander out of the bar, and a dozen dark elves go to work on them, and then the thugs sober up infront of the bind stone.  Then there are more drow burnigns, more ambushes, you get the picture?

If this were a novel or a PnP campaign, I think this is quite possibly the sort of thing that would be happening.  I doubt a dozen Drow would retaliate, though.  If that single Drow was stupid enough to put himself in that position, he got what he had coming.  Drow are almost entirely Evil, remember?  They care about other people only so far as the other people can help them.  A stupid Drow is not very helpful.  

If you say it's ok for a cleric of Vorax to kill a drow, then it becomves ok for a drow to slay a cleric of vorax, and you will get a server were the older characters are perming the younger ones out of existance.  While my character would nevver kill an innocent in cold blood, I am sure you would get some drow that see any young cleric of Vorax as a threat to be taken out while they are sill weak in power.

I think we can agree that automatic PvP is a bad idea.  Let it go and reconsider the situation.  Pretend that Layonara is a real place, and that your Drow character exists in it.  Consider that Drow have been enemies of the surface-dwellers for generation upon generation, and that they have attacked within the lifetime of every adult in the world.  Pretend that no one has any access to LORE or any other reference materials, and consider it a fair chance that most commoners can't read, so libraries would be useless.  If you were a Human commoner in Hlint, attacked not very long ago by Drow, and you saw Drow in town, what would you think?  Yes, the symbol of Az'atta is visible, but what difference does that make?  Everyone knows Drow can't be trusted, that they have no honor, that they only want to kill us.  That Drow probably isn't a priest at all, but a spy trying to disguise himself, marking us for the next attack.  I bet all those Az'attans are spies, and they do just enough good to divert suspicion.  

And what about that Dwarf who fought Drow to safeguard his Clan home for four decades?  All the pain and the death, the loss of his Clansmen to those horrid black raiders.  Do you think he's going to look at a Drow and ignore him?  Of course not.  It's already part of who he is that Drow should all be destroyed.  He probably thinks the Drow is a spy, too.  

Oh no!  The Dwarf has confronted your Drow in town.  Mothers hurry their children into homes, other townsfolk make space, but you can see a few standing ready with pitchforks and crude clubs.  It'll be mob mentality soon.  What will you do?  Remember that you know there is no PvP, but your character is in a real Layonara.  Are you going to stand there metagaming that the Dwarf can't hurt you, that his threats are meaningless because he can't back them up, and that there is no mob because the game engine won't allow us to have townsfolk milling about?  Or will you get into the world and play a Drow, a hated person.  Hated even if he is Good.  Hated for the actions of his brothers.  Hated just because of how he looks.  

Horrible as that sort of hatred is in real life, it makes for interesting roleplaying for mature people.  If you don't want to have a hard time and you don't want to be hated for nothing, don't play a Drow.

As as far as the merchants and crafthalls are concerend...  I suspect that would take more programming time then it is worth, if it is even possible..

Yes.  Yes it would take more scripting than it's worth.  That's exactly what I said before.  There are better things to spend time on.

More importantly, it would realy make the drow an unplayable race of PCs.

No, it wouldn't.  Well, it would if some half-baked system were used, but I can guarantee that the team here doesn't make half-baked systems.  If Drow (and other monstrous races) were not allowed at the regular merchant and craft halls, there would almost certainly be some sort of underground, black market areas where they could conduct business.  Yes, that's more scripting and areas and ... bothersomeness.

What about temples?  If new characters could not access temple merchants, then drow clerics would not be able to get the holy symbols they need.

Which temples?  Buying from temples should be just like making Holy Water at a temple.  If your deity isn't at least "friendly" with that deity, don't make Holy Water there, and don't buy their stuff.  Why would you support a church your deity doesn't like?

Not to mention he complexity around issues like, Toran is friendly with Az'atta.

Then there is a pretty good chance the Toranites would let Drow of Az'atta in.  One at a time.  They have temple guards, y'know, which just aren't visible because of the limitations of NWN.  The guards would be on high alert while a Drow was in the temple, but wouldn't be likely to attack unless the Drow provoked them somehow.  Drow are hated and distrusted.  They have to be careful.  It's a hard life.

Oh and by the way, being a cleric of Az'atta, my character can't realy hide himself.  Technicly, he has to display a symbol of Az'atta at all times, to ensure that anyone that needs protection, aid, or healing can idendify him as a cleric of Az'atta and get help.  Being a dark showdy figure that hides under a hood, offering help to anyone who needs it jusst doesn't work.  If you want followers of Az'atta to hide in the shadows and not show their faces, then you would have to re develop Az'atta as a deity.

A fair point.  That doesn't mean, though, that everyone goes all hippie and loves your character.  He's still a Drow.  He'll still be judged by his skin color far too often.  He'll still be hated.  It should take a LOT of work to become tolerated - not even accepted but only tolerated - in a single town.  It should take a long time and a lot of good deeds before people walk by without spitting on a Drow or trying to stab him, no matter what holy symbol he wears.  That has not been the case for any Drow on Layonara in quite a while.  Drow are either ignored or quickly accepted by PCs, and the townsfolk just treat them like any ol' Elf.

[Etinfall]

AeonBlues - 9/7/2006  3:45 PM  Why not be afraid of a cleric of Vorax?  Because Layo is not a PVP server.  

  It seems that you are making the points for the "you alls" but not seeing it. This is not a PVP server. Drow are hated in Layonara. When a drow walks into a public place, "we all" want to rp our characters properly and threaten, gather, and force that drow to leave. Or Kill the drow, depending on the character. But we can't. If a drow were to properly rp in Layonara, he or she should not go into these places. But you do because (metagame here) you know "we all" are not allowed to actually attack you.
 
 

Honestly, you all sound like a bunch of thugs at a hick town bar, "We don't take kindly to your kind around here."  Sounds great when a bunch of thugs are beating up on one drow, but we know how this escalates.  THe drunk thugs wander out of the bar, and a dozen dark elves go to work on them, and then the thugs sober up infront of the bind stone.  Then there are more drow burnigns, more ambushes, you get the picture?  If you say it's ok for a cleric of Vorax to kill a drow, then it becomves ok for a drow to slay a cleric of vorax, and you will get a server were the older characters are perming the younger ones out of existance.  

  And this is why this is not a pvp server. But it IS a RP server. So we all need to Rp our characters.
 
 

While my character would nevver kill an innocent in cold blood, I am sure you would get some drow that see any young cleric of Vorax as a threat to be taken out while they are sill weak in power.  As as far as the merchants and crafthalls are concerend...  I suspect that would take more programming time then it is worth, if it is even possible.

  which is why we as players need to RP the situations
 
 
 

More importantly, it would realy make the drow an unplayable race of PCs.  AeonBlues  

[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]
  Which is where this topic started. At least as far as I remember.
 
 
  Now, I apologize for comming into this topic at such a late date I just needed to chime in.
 
  Etinfall

[Acacea]

What disturbs me about this thread (other than I keep replying to it because of some horribly masochistic need to correct what seems inaccurate) is the roleplay-blending. This is exactly why playing a drow is hard for many people.

We don't hate you.

We don't even hate your character.

If someone tried to beat you up, a good amount of people here would probably help you kick their butts. Some would laugh... some would call someone else to beat them up because they spend their lives in front of a computer screen and are thus not really in the kind of shape you kick-butt with, unless it requires a keyboard...

But I digress. For the most part, the people who have replied the most often on the thread, reply because they like drow. They either love the villains and wish our drow could somehow be a part of it, or love the unique opportunities for roleplay for such a reviled race. Do we personally hate them? Uh...there aren't really any evil races in reality, just individuals and majorities. That's the difference. This is fantasy. They are a sweepingly evil race and the good ones are FREAKS. Telling us OOC that sweeping hatred of a race is wrong, oh my, does nothing. I'm pretty sure necromancy and Toranites wouldn't be all that popular, either.

You can't just change their definition and the perception of the common people that is written in a thousand different places, because hatred is a tool for evil. That doesn't change that it's a fact that it exists. We want the situation to REFLECT the fact.

So please don't start tossing around "thugs at a bar" comparisons when we just want players of drow to be challenged and play in an environment that has appropriate responses to drow, not play some weak, watered down sunburned elf who is widely accepted everywhere. Ruin someone else's fun? I think not. We want them to have fun, and we want our characters to be able to have fun without some drow characters parading around openly and taking advantage of the fact that neither our characters, nor the unseen NPCs can actually DO anything.

Ruin fun, no. Get some of it back, yes.

[Drizzlin]

Acacea - 9/7/2006  4:42 PM

What disturbs me about this thread (other than I keep replying to it because of some horribly masochistic need to correct what seems inaccurate) is the roleplay-blending. This is exactly why playing a drow is hard for many people.

We don't hate you.

We don't even hate your character.

If someone tried to beat you up, a good amount of people here would probably help you kick their butts. Some would laugh... some would call someone else to beat them up because they spend their lives in front of a computer screen and are thus not really in the kind of shape you kick-butt with, unless it requires a keyboard...

But I digress. For the most part, the people who have replied the most often on the thread, reply because they like drow. They either love the villains and wish our drow could somehow be a part of it, or love the unique opportunities for roleplay for such a reviled race. Do we personally hate them? Uh...there aren't really any evil races in reality, just individuals and majorities. That's the difference. This is fantasy. They are a sweepingly evil race and the good ones are FREAKS. Telling us OOC that sweeping hatred of a race is wrong, oh my, does nothing. I'm pretty sure necromancy and Toranites wouldn't be all that popular, either.

You can't just change their definition and the perception of the common people that is written in a thousand different places, because hatred is a tool for evil. That doesn't change that it's a fact that it exists. We want the situation to REFLECT the fact.

So please don't start tossing around "thugs at a bar" comparisons when we just want players of drow to be challenged and play in an environment that has appropriate responses to drow, not play some weak, watered down sunburned elf who is widely accepted everywhere. Ruin someone else's fun? I think not. We want them to have fun, and we want our characters to be able to have fun without some drow characters parading around openly and taking advantage of the fact that neither our characters, nor the unseen NPCs can actually DO anything.

Ruin fun, no. Get some of it back, yes.

You are wasting your time. Some of the people you are arguing with here on this thread, argue just because they can. They think their characters are number one and are not going to listen to an opinion or an idea from anyone else. They didn't come here to give constructive solutions or help with valid input for the community as a whole. I haven't even bothered trying to explain that RA Salvatore created what we know as Drow. I know that Gary Gygax was the one who actually first created Drow and even had it set for them to show up in the Fiends Folio around 1979. Gary gave drow the concept and used them as monsters. RA Salvatore released Homeland and made Drow into a society with a background and history, he took Gary Gygax's idea and made it what we call Drow today. The Wright Brothers may have been the first to fly, but in no way am I going to give them credit for the 747 Jet I hop to Chicago. Now the little prop plane they try to shove me on as a connecting flight...maybe =)

I understand where the Az'atta Drow are coming from, and agree it should be the hardest on you, because everyone should see you for a hated drow and treat you as such. Your PC being apart of Az'atta should make the local folk suspicious of the temple of Az'atta for having a Drow among her ranks. I have played a Drow PC on Layo since Oct of 2004. Is it hard? Is it easy? It is exactly what I make it as a player. I personally choose the road less traveled here on Layonara and make it hard. I make sure all PCs walk away from my drow either fearing him or disgusted and wanting to never see him again. No one ever complains about the RP, and most love that they can be hateful to me IC and treat my PC like a Drow.

These people saying the shops should be KoS and the guards KoS are IMO correct. However the simple solution is a black market with a trade hall. Then so what if a Drow can not go to Hlint and Hampshire openly? The drow could still go else where for their supplies. This is not hard code, you just set all NPCs kos to those races. Then you make one small city some where known for it's black market where everyone can go and buy from. It only makes it harder for the monster races by making them run a bit further.

I played on another server that put monster races on one side of the world underground, and everyone else on the other side above ground. Monster races were KoS every where but the starting location and a select few "dark" merchants that sold to everyone. All non monster races were kos in that underdark city. I played a Minotaur of Malar there. When my other evil allies (Bane/Talos worshiping humans mostly) went to town, I stayed out and terrorized the locals around the city walls until the guards came. The players were not spread out at all. It gave a central hub for like minded PCs who wanted to play evil/monster races and for the rest of the player base.

I hope in the future that something like this can be done here on Layonara, or in Layo II. Either way I recommend just letting it go with the few who are fighting with you. They are not contributing to ideas or the thread. I love the one who said it is the drow communities fault that he can not RP with them, because he wrote his history up having faught drow for like 40 years. He is the one to blame to blame for his lack of "RP' the way he would like too. He knows Layo and the rules of Layo. If he didn't want the RP problems, then he should have written up a different background. I just love how it is my personal fault for his concept.

If I didn't want the problems my Drow faces, I could have made him a Paladin of Toran like others have.

[Vyris]

Well, let me put it this way.

As a Dwarf. I feel it would be within my logical RP to attack and attempt to kill:

Drow, Orcs, Duergar, Half/races of the Giant, Ogre and Orc stock.

I also feel that as a battleprist of Vorax, due to the dogma or Vorax, it would be within my logical RP to attack and attempt to kill:

Priests of any 'enemy' diety, and any mage that casts an arcane spell ON my person against my wishes, this includes mages who think it's funny to cast darkness on voraxians while in town because they know I can't retaliate with anything meaningfull.

Now, As a for instance, if you and I were both amenable to a physical confrontation between our characters and say... oh, Pankoki happened to be on, we could ask him witness the fight as long as there was an RP reason behind the bloodshed and we both agreed that this was a logical conclusion to our RP. He would ask us if we could settle it with dice-bags, etc, etc. but ultimately, we CAN do it if we both agree. The GM team strives to discourage this course of action.

In my vision of a 'better' system all the 'monstrous' races would have the same restrictions as a CN alignment does currently, that was we understand that the people playing them have some RP experience. Further I would add a section like Paladins and clerics do now, about thier dieties Dogma, but this would essentially be a disclaimer that the player would agree to stating that they understand that playing a 'monstrous' race will no doubt lead to another player confronting them with the intent to kill them, that such encounters will result in the loss of XP if the attacker succeeds. Further the disclaimer would not that merchants in populated areas will react negatively to the presence of a 'monstrous' race in their shop. Their reaction would range from unwillingness to trade to hostility (calling the guard, etc.).


As a 'monstrous' race of course you would have the option of doing what your racial tendancies say, ie. attacking as opportunity dictates. In order to provide a family friendly experience for those who wish to avoid such confrontations I would think a "PvP list would be sufficient. Those players of 'goodly' races who WISH to be able to follow that course of RP sign up and are then allowed PvP unless they abuse their priveledges. Monstrous races have no choice, thats the price they pay for being monstrous. But in return they are free to ambush any character who has put himself on that list as well. That way my 8 year old can play with all the tanned elves he wants, and not worry about getting ganked, which is not the experience I'd want for my son.

And really, all we are doing here is espousing our beliefs on what our current system allows. I really don't think things will change much. Some people say that allowing PvP is a pandoras box, and far more trouble than it's worth.

I personaly would rather not have Drow on the server at all, than do as I currently do and ignore them. I feel that the current system doesn't allow me to react appropriately, and allows THEM to react innapropriately, with no recourse for myself.

Anyway, it's not a 'thug' mantality, it's a logical conclusion to a illogical situation. My character is Never going to accept a Drow, period. If Berdin were fighting undead and was outnumbered and having a tough time, and a Drow came along, and offered to help, Berdin would stop attacking the undead and attempt to kill the Drow before the undead killed him. It's not that I as a person want to hunt you down and kill your character, it's that your characters race are mortal enemies of my characters entire race. Regardless of whether Drow on the surface fart rainbows or not.


//edit

What I am trying to point out is that due to server restrictions, and a lack of a willingness on 'many' peoples part who play these races to 'self ostracise' themselves, or react as if they actually ARE a reviled race it impinges apon MY ability to RP what I consider a fitting reaction to what MY character would wish to do if he were able. The restrictions on 'monstrous' races rely on voluntary RP on those parties part, and voluntary reactions on other players parts to RP a sense of strife. I, personally am no longer willing to go through the metagame dance, and lose my immersion in the game because of it. That is all I am trying to point out. basically expanding on the ideas that others have stated already in this thread for why THEY don't like the way Drow are now.


Vyris

[Gulnyr]

Drizzlin - 9/7/2006  8:54 PM

You are wasting your time. Some of the people you are arguing with here on this thread, argue just because they can. They think their characters are number one and are not going to listen to an opinion or an idea from anyone else. They didn't come here to give constructive solutions or help with valid input for the community as a whole.

Vague remarks like this only work to cause problems through misunderstanding.  It is much more constructive and effective to site specifics and ask for clarification.  It could simply be that something was poorly written or misread.

Can you please point out specific instances of people arguing just because they can, people proclaiming their characters number one, people refusing to listen to ideas from others, or people purposely sabotaging the thread by not being constructive or providing valid input?  

Thank you.

[Zen]

IMHO

#1: We do NOT have a Drow problem!

#2:However we do have a RP problem.

#3: Some of the RP problem cannot be fixed-> (Due to server rules)
#3a=Example 1:

Vyris - 9/7/2006  8:09 PM
As a Dwarf. I feel it would be within my logical RP to attack and attempt to kill:
Drow, Orcs, Duergar, Half/races of the Giant, Ogre and Orc stock
Vyris

#3b=Example 2:
We MUST work around or adapt our RP accordingly. Like the fact that Garnet has friends that are Drow and/or Goblin, some are Arcane casters and even warshipers of Enemy races. If this was pure PnP type RP, this would never just happen, and only happen with DM intervention.

CURE:
As I see it we need to try to get along and any "evil" races or classes need to reject their past and work for the good of the community. After all you "left" for a reason. Make one up and use it.

How well if you are "evil" or from an "evil" background (even LE alignment) can work with others, yes for a personal goal but get along with others that can help you. If played correctly you will just Never reach that goal thus always letting you work with others.

Zen

[Vyris]

Vyris - 9/6/2006  4:52 PM

I guess it rubs me wrong that as per my character bio Berdin spent the better part of 30-40 years fighting the Drow in the tunnels of his clans mines, and now, since he's on the surface he's restricted to sneering and threating, which, the recipient is likely to respond to by mocking me and hiding behind the FACT that I can't do a darned thing to them. Dwarves aren't the type to tell you what a lowly worm you are, if they are going to expend effort in your direction it's going to be with an axe. I understand why, because PvP always gets out of hand, and there is far more constructive things the GM team can do with their time than make sure that we aren't out just hunting other PC's down and being jerks.

Drizzlin - 9/7/2006  6:54 PM



I hope in the future that something like this can be done here on Layonara, or in Layo II. Either way I recommend just letting it go with the few who are fighting with you. They are not contributing to ideas or the thread. I love the one who said it is the drow communities fault that he can not RP with them, because he wrote his history up having faught drow for like 40 years. He is the one to blame to blame for his lack of "RP' the way he would like too. He knows Layo and the rules of Layo. If he didn't want the RP problems, then he should have written up a different background. I just love how it is my personal fault for his concept.

Essentially, what I gather from that quote, is that I shouldn't play a dwarf, because it's not the drows fault that dwarves don't like them. I don't ever remember blaming you personaly for anything. I would love to RP conflict with a drow, I RP conflict with a couple clerics of Az'atta, and several magicians, who all RP thier side of the conflict, not sit mockingly on a park bench in Hlint and tell me to "Do something about it, stubby."

I brought up my characters Bio because it's typical. Ask any Dwarven character in game, in character how they feel about Drow and you'll recieve about 98% 'bash 'em' responses. Nowhere did I say it's the 'Drow communities fault' that Layonara isn't a PvP server, and I certainly don't blame YOU personaly, unless your the one who was sitting on the park bench casting darkness, then running around bumping me while I was invisible and trying to craft...Then you ARE the problem. I did however build apon a point made by AR7, who I personally regard as one of the very best roleplayers on Layonara, and who's opinion I give much weight.

Ar7 - 8/31/2006  9:31 AM

1) Monster races

I used to RP hatred towards all monster races and tried to drive them out of town. I was successful at first but as the world grew and more and more players came I faced very weird situations. Unfortunately many people began metagaming here and I just dropped the entire thing, it just became a useless waste of time that just wasn't fun. The example of the situation, very much simplified, just to give the basic idea.

Rufus: Get out of town!

Drow: But I am a good drow...

Rufus: You don't belong here, just wait until the militia arrives

Drow Metagame Nr 1: I am not afraid of the law, the people of Hlint have nothing against me (nothing against a drow?!?!)

Rufus: Alright, then I will personally remove you from this town

Drow Metagame Nr 1: I am not afraid of a little wizard and your magic

Rufus: *summons something big and nasty*

Drow: *laughs*

So this was a rough example, conclusion? It becomes really old really fast when I am not able to do anything and just face a blank wall. In reality Rufus would have executed that drow or goblin or giant or whatever on sight, if he didn't have a good reason to be there aaaaand would so arrogantly mouth off.

It is exactly THAT situation which I have encountered innumerable times when encountering Drow, and which I would have to say directly relates to my "lack of "RP" the way I want to", which I thought was a pretty rude comment on your part.

It has nothing to do with how I would LIKE to RP my character. I would be perfectly content using the PC dicebag to either intimidate the drow, or have a 'virtual physical' confrontation and either I pick my butt up off the ground and admit I got beat, or I trot the drows' butt off to the gates and give him a healthy kick in the kiester as I RP tossing the dark skinned devil out of town.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that a large portion of the Drow I have encountered react exactly as AR7 described, if not to make things worse by following my character and casting darkness, etc at him, or casting invisibility on themselves and 'bumping' me after I've given up on being able to RP the confrontation the way it SHOULD be.

As for argueing, whats the point in having an opinion if you aren't willing to defend it? being dismissive of other peoples opinions doesn't validate your own. I have actually changed or modified several thoughts I had in the course of this discussion based on input from people who's opinions differ from my own. Debate is the lifeblood of innovation, without it there would be no intellectual advancement at all. Perhaps through this thread the GM team may find ideas they would like to implement in Layonara II.

Judging from my experience on the GM team I am pretty positive that there was a fair bit of discussion about not allowing any sub-race applications for a while, just as I am sure theres probably a thread in the GM forum that tracks this discussion. If not I am positive that it's being read by members of the GM team, checking to make sure peoples tempers stay in check.

Regardless, it passes the time, and in some way we are coming together to find an ideal model of what we think the drow society and such should be like on Layonara. I can honestly see a consensus of common ideas beginning to form, and thats the first step towards formulating any serious solution.

Vyris

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Allow me to state something that DS said over Yahoo (and approved for posting here, never fear).

Elf : Drow IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO Caucasian : African American.

They are difference species. Not just different skin colours. And this isn't just a societal difference, either...

Personality traits tend to run in families. We can all accept this, right? That there's some hereditary link regarding personality.

The Drow have been killing any and all children who showed "defects" like kindness, compassion, or charity. For millenia.

Sure, there's the odd one who isn't a ruthless, siblicidal death machine, but... They're reasonably few and far between.

Drow are killers. That's how the general populace sees them, and that's how they are.

Why we don't kill them on sight, I don't really know.

[Drizzlin]

Gulnyr - 9/7/2006  6:36 PM

Drizzlin - 9/7/2006  8:54 PM

You are wasting your time. Some of the people you are arguing with here on this thread, argue just because they can. They think their characters are number one and are not going to listen to an opinion or an idea from anyone else. They didn't come here to give constructive solutions or help with valid input for the community as a whole.

Vague remarks like this only work to cause problems through misunderstanding.  It is much more constructive and effective to site specifics and ask for clarification.  It could simply be that something was poorly written or misread.

Can you please point out specific instances of people arguing just because they can, people proclaiming their characters number one, people refusing to listen to ideas from others, or people purposely sabotaging the thread by not being constructive or providing valid input?  

Thank you.

Why? I am not attacking anyones opinion. I am not cutting and pasting their opinion so I can tell them they are wrong. If the shoe fits...well you know the old saying. This is the problem with this thread right now, too many people are attacking each other and trying to be "right", rather than give some constructive input.

If I read a thread, and I can not add to it constructively (mainly threads where people are giving opinions, or asking questions) I don't post on it. If you don't agree with someone, you don't have to pick their post about and try to "prove" their opinion wrong.

[Vyris]

I always considered it a courtesy to add quotes in a reply when you are responding to a specific point someone else has made. I don't think it detracts from the previous persons position at all, it just lends a referance so you don't have to scroll back and forth to find what someone is talking about.

I'm beginning to get the feeling that some of the people who've been active in either watching or participating in this thread get the feeling that their opinions are being under-valued or dismissed, but in reality, if we were all sitting around a big table at a Denny's or something, drinking bad coffee and discussing this the discussion might be intense at times, but I can honestly say that I'd be listening attentively to what you had to say.

Anyway, such as it is I guess we get to a point in a conversation where people have said all they can to support their view or refute the view of people they are attempting to sway with their arguements. I'm thinking I've pretty much said all I can about how I feel on it and I'll leave everyone else to chime in or not as they wish.

Vyris

[Gulnyr]

Drizzlin - 9/7/2006  11:50 PM

Why? I am not attacking anyones opinion.

But you are.  You have made the statement that one or more people have posted opinions that are somehow unworthy, that their opinions are not constructive, and that they are posting merely to amuse themselves.

This is the problem with this thread right now, too many people are attacking each other and trying to be "right", rather than give some constructive input.

Your post is the closest I have seen anyone come to attacking anyone.  Several people have posted opinions of what they think is wrong, or what they think might be a solution, and several people have expanded on those posts with reasons why the ideas may or may not be sound.  That is the essence of debate.  It's how people come to a consensus.  "Constructive" doesn't necessarily involve giving positive responses.  Commenting on why something is impractical, for example, can be constructive.