Character attitudes towards each other

[Acacea]

Disagreed again... I don't actually think "Corathite!!" when I think of demons, no, and neither does my character (Black Wizard, possibly, run of the mill Corathite, not really, and she's never accused anyone of being a Black I don't think), but you don't really need a huge amount of information to have a stereotype. That's the whole point. Priests and followers aren't really SUPPOSED to act the way everyone pictures them, are they?

Your common fighter is not likely going to know the hierarchy of the church or the summons or common rituals of the god. But Corath is such a stereotypical or cliche DOOM OF THE WORLD EVIL GOD kind of guy that I have no doubt they carry some fear and stories about them, whether or not they follow the handbook's definition of the church. "Maybe it's a baby eating Corathite that summons demons in the dark of the moons!" "Oh, no, just some other demon guy."

If some do eat babies and summon demons during the dark of the moon doesn't make it my fault they adhere to it.

I did find a lot of people metagaming the location of their temple, which was really annoying and a little disappointing because of who was involved--running across a door in a very large area really does not automatically make its owner and affiliation obvious, in my opinion.

Regarding the demons thing, other than not necessarily screaming Corathite, they're uh...evil. I don't care if you're a Corathite or just, you know, your run of the mill evil demon worshipper and summoner who drags minions from another plane to do his bidding and often gets mistaken for followers of more famous evil gods, it's still not going to help your reputation any.

I'm just trying to remind people that not all discoveries are metagamed, and to me, assuming that they all are and trying to force everyone to not know something just because we don't want it known, is metagaming in itself. And it's happened.

[jrizz]

Wren runs with more then a few characters from the dark side but he has never seen them do something evil. Sure sometimes they dont help me with buffs but that is not out of the norm really. So he keeps running with them, one day they will do something evil and he will have to decide what to do. But until he sees it or they say to him "I worship the darkness, and I plan to do great and evil things" he just thinks they are a bit mean and grumpy LOL.

[Polak76]

Squareknot: Excellent points.  I agree totally.
Jrizz: Thats exactly in my opinion how i would play characters as well.

Acacea:  Your points have gone off on a huge tangent but i will add some comments.

((Your common fighter is not likely going to know the hierarchy of the church or the summons or common rituals of the god.))  Agreed
((But Corath is such a stereotypical or cliche DOOM OF THE WORLD EVIL GOD kind of guy that I have no doubt they carry some fear and stories about them, whether or not they follow the handbook's definition of the church. "Maybe it's a baby eating Corathite that summons demons in the dark of the moons!" "Oh, no, just some other demon guy."))  This is your opinion only.  There are people in the game that have no idea whatsovever about magical forces, gods, cities, monsters..etc.  Thus these people would have no knowledge/stereotype of anything!  If they wish to contest a point then I would like to see untrained skill checks rather than banter off with assumtions.

((If some do eat babies and summon demons during the dark of the moon doesn't make it my fault they adhere to it.))  Again my points above.  Also unless they do this in the middle of Hlint or elsewhere I would agree.  But in my time here no Corathite PC ever has.

((I did find a lot of people metagaming the location of their temple, which was really annoying and a little disappointing because of who was involved--running across a door in a very large area really does not automatically make its owner and affiliation obvious, in my opinion.)) Excellent point!

((Regarding the demons thing, other than not necessarily screaming Corathite, they're uh...evil. I don't care if you're a Corathite or just, you know, your run of the mill evil demon worshipper and summoner who drags minions from another plane to do his bidding and often gets mistaken for followers of more famous evil gods, it's still not going to help your reputation any.)) I've seen clerics of lucinda (numerous) summon liches and greater mummies, one person doing this in HLint.  Does this donate the same reaections?....I think not!  Also when a druid summons a dire spider do people automatially assume they worship Baerun?  No, and they shouldn't.  

We could cover many situations all going off my initial post.  My original point were peoples reactions to my charcter before they know anything about him.  Yes clearly we have defined dress code has some influence which i totally agree with.  Personalities also have a valid reason for arguments.  I welcome confrontations realting to these issues but the RP my character is getting towards him is absolutely rediculous and clearly metagaming.
Clearly we will never all agree so lets agree to disagree.  The positive points from this thread is that we are now more conscious of our charcters towards others so thats a win in my books.

Cheers,
Polak76



I'm just trying to remind people that not all discoveries are metagamed, and to me, assuming that they all are and trying to force everyone to not know something just because we don't want it known, is metagaming in itself.

[Acacea]

I'm not disagreeing with your original post and I clearly stated that. In fact, I agreed with everything you said and agreed that people metagame things frequently and should not. And think that if it's necessary, there probably isn't a need for deity on server list, as the only thing I've used it for is to look for paladins/clerics who have null or mispelled deities.

My point was not to go off on an unrelated tangent nor to say that you have not been a victim, my response was to Dezza who seemed to issue a blanket generalization of "no one does this," "no one should think this," "none of the Corathites act in such a way," "there's no reason to ever discover.." which is blatantly false from not one but many many of activities I have seen, and was the only impetus to reply to a thread I otherwise agreed with.

I don't believe I ever stated that a Lucindite summoning demons or undead should not cause havoc, and I can think of one Lucindite who got in a great deal of trouble for a lich-issue.

I understand your own experiences and as I stated quite clearly I have met neither your Corathite nor Dezza's. I quote "but just because you're being discreet doesn't mean that everyone is."

The eating babies in the dark of the moon thing was not me saying your character does that or in the middle of Hlint, man...it was supposed to be an exaggerated silly thought that a character might immediately associate with the name because of how dark they are. The point was that people might think extravagant, frightening things, and they usually aren't true--but if someone does adhere to a stereotype it's not really anyone's fault. I stated that a common man wouldn't really know anything about the church, but to say he has never heard of Corath, a prime force of evil, is a little silly to me.

You can't compare a druid summoning a spider to anyone at all summoning a demon. I understand if you feel like you were attacked--you weren't, but I understand the need for counters--but there is not a logical comparison in that. I already said that the automatic jump from demons to Corath isn't a logical one, but I really think you're going to have a hard time arguing that demon summoning is not going to be looked on well no matter who you worship.

I hate metagaming and agree that it occurs frequently, I'm merely opposed to Dezza's blanket generalization of "well that doesn't happen!" for exactly the reasons I stated. It does, and it's not just "walking around in black suits." I'm not trying to list every exception to the rule in response to your post--that's why I didn't reply earlier.I'm just reminding that there ARE exceptions and cases where it is not metagaming at all, in reply to Dezza's denial of them. Large difference, at least in my mind.

[Lilswanwillow]

personally, I LIKE the deity thing on the server page.
Why you ask? then I know oocly who I can speak with, and try to get to know.  There is one person that I've been speaking with that oocly we know are eachothers same dietys, but Ic we just hang out.

[Dezza]

Acacea - 11/1/2006  11:46 AM

My point was not to go off on an unrelated tangent nor to say that you have not been a victim, my response was to Dezza who seemed to issue a blanket generalization of "no one does this," "no one should think this," "none of the Corathites act in such a way," "there's no reason to ever discover.." which is blatantly false from not one but many many of activities I have seen, and was the only impetus to reply to a thread I otherwise agreed with.

Hey! I never said 'no one does this' I merely indicated what had been observed..thats all..I look forward to all challenging situations thrown my way now that I have one on the side of Good in Tarradon and one on the side of...well not so good in Sipher Priest of Corath..

Its amazing the differences one sees when one tries something new!

[Acacea]

As I said I have no idea if that was the case with your characters, I haven't even met them! It was more like a "Yeah well before we all get foaming at the mouth to agree that metagaming sucks remember how obvious some people can be...but it still sucks." Ie, changing the post to something more like "they're SUPPOSED to be like drow are SUPPOSED to be...secret and hidden "

It would be easier to read if I weren't as longwinded and said so, but the accidental rambling lengths of my posts are my only claim to fame...or maybe infamy.

[Polak76]

I also like having the deity on the server status.  It's cool when you meet someone and check them out OOC...it's kind of like "ahhh..so thats why they acted that way, or thats what they are".  It scratches an itch that I'd probably never find out IG.

People just need to be mature enough not to use the server status for personal gain.

[Drizzlin]

jrizz - 11/1/2006  4:28 PM

Wren runs with more then a few characters from the dark side but he has never seen them do something evil. Sure sometimes they dont help me with buffs but that is not out of the norm really. So he keeps running with them, one day they will do something evil and he will have to decide what to do. But until he sees it or they say to him "I worship the darkness, and I plan to do great and evil things" he just thinks they are a bit mean and grumpy LOL.

Why are you dragging me into this? lol

[Talan Va'lash]

Polak76 - 11/1/2006  9:31 PM

I also like having the deity on the server status.  It's cool when you meet someone and check them out OOC...it's kind of like "ahhh..so thats why they acted that way, or thats what they are".  It scratches an itch that I'd probably never find out IG.

People just need to be mature enough not to use the server status for personal gain.

If you're going backwards to check out one character it's easy enough to seach for the submission or follow their link on the serverstatus to their character page.

What having it on the server status page itself allows is quick and easy wholesale scanning of "who's X deity" whether you want to know or not.

Frankly when I'm coming on as a player I try not to look beyond the name.

[jrizz]

Drizzlin - 11/1/2006  9:07 PM

jrizz - 11/1/2006  4:28 PM

Wren runs with more then a few characters from the dark side but he has never seen them do something evil. Sure sometimes they dont help me with buffs but that is not out of the norm really. So he keeps running with them, one day they will do something evil and he will have to decide what to do. But until he sees it or they say to him "I worship the darkness, and I plan to do great and evil things" he just thinks they are a bit mean and grumpy LOL.

Why are you dragging me into this? lol

You are such a good example..... of mean and grumpy LoL

[Faldred]

I try not to metagame like this, and I hope my roleplay shows it.



With Zug, he generally trusts everyone, unless they're acting like jerks.  Unless someone told him explicitly, he wouldn't know a Corathite from a Toranite.



Aoeleth typically treats others with the same level of respect he is afforded, which, being a Drow, isn't much.  Anyone willing to look past his heritage is someone he will team up with, except that he clearly won't associate with anyone he suspects folows the evil Drow gods.



Vorian... well... as long as fun and adventure are involved, he doesn't ask too many questions.

[Vyris]

Metagaming is pretty hard to control, it's a constant battle between your RP, and what other PLAYERS know is in their own characters best interest. Theres sometimes a fine line between what a PLAYER knows, and what a CHARACTER can deduce from what is being played out in game.

For example, Say I log on to the server status page to see if Gulnyr or Regnus or Klaug or someone is playing, I skip down through the list and don't see them, but the word CORATH jumps out at me from the diety field. I don't bother to look to see who it is, close the browser and log on to play. Say I'm playing Bidwick, a fighter with aspirations, part of his RP is that he's a bit brighter than the average meat shield, thus his 13 int. Now, he's no brain surgeon, but he's probably smarter than your highschool gym teacher.

Bidwick cruises around doing his thing, ridding the roads and countryside of bandits. He happens along a fellow in a meadow collecting some plants, the fellow is wearing a long black robe with a high colar and some sort of head-dress that looks like sider legs sticking off his back and head, he also looks really pale. Bidwick from his travels in this area knows theres lots of the deadly nightshade plants that grow in this area, and wonders what this fellow could want such a toxic plant for. Then, before the guy notices Bidwick a group of bandits rush the fellow from the bushes, Bidwick draws his weapon to go help, then stops as the fellow casts a spell, is himself struck by a bolt of black lightning and surrounded by a greasy looking purple black cloud. He then casts another spell at the rushing bandits who are enveloped for a moment in a black cloud, when the emerge they look paler and stumble as though weakened. Finaly, as they close within range and strike at the mage he summons an imp and retreats from battle to let his minion handle the weakened bandits.

Now, Bidwick, having seen all this thinks this guy is definately dancing on the darker edge of the spotlight, and his suspicions are confirmed when his imp fells a bandit, and the mage casts another spell, raising the dead bandits corpse as a zombie.

Now Bidwick, as NG at this point might wish to go aid the bandits rather than aid the mage as was his original intent, after all, these guys might just be starving farmers or something, what with the world in a dark age, and while banditry is wrong, as far as Bidwick is concerned raising a zombie is a worse crime.

Bidwick was around enough to know that Blood and his minions were in the same general region of rottonness this guy seems to be, and by that association Biwick coul logically deduce the slim cross-section of dieties this guy is likely to be a follower of. ME, as the PLAYER have a sneaky suspicion that this is the Corathite I saw in the server status.

Later, Bidwick is talking to a freind in Hlint when the dark mage from the battle walks in. Bidwicks freind says something about the guy being creepy-looking, Bidwick relates his story, the freind, being a cleric notes that Corath is a proponant of using the undead.

Two days later Bidwick runs into the guy again, this time in the tavern as a few people gather to form a party for a quest. Bidwick comments to the paladin in the prospective group that he thinks the mage is a corathite, and starts giving sidelong glances at the mage. Now, I as a player start getting tells about "Nice metagaming buddy." from the player of the dark mage. This guy had absolutely no idea about the RP that went into Bidwicks deduction, but still, it is assumed that if I knew he was a Corathite I'd just pulled it off the server status page.

Just to play devils advocate here, this situation really happened to me, paraphrase and condensed because I'm typing this up from school on a break. But I just wanted to say, as has been said before, walk like a duck, quack like a duck, act like a duck. people are going to think duck. Given all the other information Bidwick had even if the guy had been wearing shining white robes of Hey I'm a good guy +15 I definately would have had a similar train of RP. Just because you paint a barn green doesn't make it any less a barn.


Anyhow, cya all in game.

Vyris

[ZeroVega]

I don't get the green barn thing, but weird analogies must be a side affect of the Vyris.    All in all I think Vyris hit the nail on the head; and what people need to do from now on is ASK OOC for a very brief overview of how the person knows someone is what they are. Person (A) who asks person (B) how he knows that person (A's) character is a Corathite would then be trusted not to metagame any of the information he heard OOC from person (B) and continue RPing with only the OOC reassurance that all is as it should be.

It's a player thing.

[Guardian 452]

The best evil people in Layo are the ones that don't do stupid things in public. The ones that are smart about it.

The ones that complain all the time here on the forums are the ones that are...

Casting undead around others.

Prasing an Evil gods in public

Wearing all black, and hooded (say! that must be an Aeridinite!!!)

Being an a$$ to everyone (though for some that's more a personal problem than their character I think)


Then ya cry foul when people put 2 and 2 together?


please.

[Guardian 452]

My character is entitled to say he or she things anyone is anything! That's their oppinion.  Just as is everyone elses character here.

Wether my characters oppinion is fact, rumor, or just that they don't like the first impression they got from your character is all going to be handled thru ROLEPLAY.

If any of my characters saw the above mentioned scenario... they'd come to the EXACT same conclusion.


If I see a person dressed head to toe in black, hood covering their face... im going to assume they have something to hide. Will I scream Corathite at the top of my lungs?  Of course not.  


Clerics... use that Divine Relation spell. It will tell you a great deal and allow you to Roleplay from there!

[LoRD-oF-AEoNS]

As well as lossing well. Most evil players seem to have a problem with losing, not that I've seen it on Layo. It's just a common atribute of them, cant grasp the fact that evil dosnt win much. I perfer playing evil myself but normally play both evenly and dont sit and complain about losing...Just everything else eh, that might be a bit off topic, anyway....Dress dosnt excaclty sterotype a person, black for example is worn by alot in reality some not "evil" or "gothy" or "weird" or whatever you want to call them. Black tux's are worn to weddings, I suppose it's different if it was a formal dress or a thuggish. And yes, if anyone already shows hate toward a Corathite and knwos nothing about them personally before hand, that's an ugly metagame. They should burn in hell. As far as metagaming goes I keep most of my characters info to myself. I still use dev threads but only list common stuff. My thread isnt the most colorful or lengthy but meh, It's better than being metagamed. And about summoning a spectre, skell, or wraith in front of others, that's pretty silly. I mean if one of those others was a Pally it'd be in his nature to hack you or your pretty little pet down. PvP isnt allowed in most circumstances, so that would really put that other player in a wierd situation, not fair for them.

Oh ignore my writing skills, spelling, ect. they are horrible.

[Tanman]

Excuse my ignorance...What exactly do you mean by losing? Losing to what? You mean dying?

[Doc-Holiday]

The funny thing about Divine Relation is that when my character Ward would use it on people they always got offended

That it wasn't my duty to go around and pry into their personal lives with magic.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Doc-Holiday - 11/2/2006  4:08 PM  The funny thing about Divine Relation is that when my character Ward would use it on people they always got offended  That it wasn't my duty to go around and pry into their personal lives with magic.

 From what I understand, other characters shouldn't know that it's being cast, because it's not actually a spell, just a quick (not even overt and ritualistic!) prayer to one's deity to see what He or She thinks about the other character.  Though it is good to see my "duck" quote being used.