Cleve with Duel weild?

[Tedulas]

Heya, just wandering something...if you have a character with weapon finesse and duel weilds two blades, would cleve and great cleve be needed for extra attacks?

Because I was thinking...weapon finesse is important for dex-based characters, they would do little damage dependant on their strength. So, would you get cleve for more attacks so you can do more damage per round?

[IDii]

Well you have to remember that cleave only gives you an attack if you kill something that ground. And how much you kill depends on what you fight.

Cleave's most useful against groups of weak things and great cleave even more so, or perhaps I should say most used as it truly isn't most "useful" there.

And when you fight the things you'd really NEED the extra attacks against, well you don't get them since they don't die every ground or aren't that numerous.

I've always thought of the cleave feats as something cool but not really that useful. Since in a way they're most useful when they're useless and useless when they'd be most useful. Or something like that...

[s0ulz]

Depends... if you have power attack... sure, if not, then not worth the two feats.

[LoganGrimnar]

i think Cleave is a very useful feat, but greater cleave is not, inless you fighting goblins or somthing along that line.

Cleave is good becosue even if it is strong as ldii said, when you kill the creature you will still cleave into the next one, giving you a little more power. I would only take Cleave if i made a fighter type, if i can kill it in one hit, i likly wont be getting hurt by it, so i dont need to be killing them really fast with a feat(even if it is cool to see a high level cleave through a huge mob of goblins). So in my opinion i would go with cleave, but not greater cleave. Knock down is a good one as well you might consider, and greater knockdown, or improved or whatever.

[Bryantiza]

Yeah, i think that cleave would be useful for you, but great cleave isn't. since your dex you'll be fighting by hitting the enemy alot of times and not doing one hit wonders.

[Vyris]

Cleave is usefull for fighting low end monsters such as kobolds, goblins, any group of spellcasters is at risk with cleave, great cleave also works well in this instance.

Great cleave is MOST usefull if you do pretty high damage, and you are in a group here other group members may be fighting other monsters near you.

You are fighting a group of ogres with Bob and Bill, bob and bill are each fighting seperate ogres, and you have the third ogre. You kill your ogre first, swing at Bob's ogre, which he has near death, you swing, hit and land a killing blow, you then swing through and whack Bills ogre, takling him down to badly wounded, then the three of you polish off the last ogre quickly next round.

Great cleave relies on high damage, luck and fighting in a group where other people are doing decent damage as well. And I mean decent damage vs. what you are fighting, not saying this is only usefull if you are fighting weak monsters or if you are doing 70 damage per hit. It's a usefull feat in the right situation.


Vyris

[slipperhero]

I'm not sure about this but here it goes.

Without cleave: Lets say you have 3 attacks/round. You fight two monsters and kill the first on your second attack for a specific round. Since you do not have cleave you loose your last attack as you swing around to face your   new foe.

With cleave: Still got 3 attacks/round. You fight two monsters and kill the first on your second attack for a specific round. Since you have cleave you swing your sword hitting the next monster and continues with your last attack on your new foe.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dark Jester]

From what I have seen with it, you still continue to get your regular attacks, even though you are cleaving.

Grog is pretty devastating against any lower HP creatures with his Great Cleave.

I have noticed as well that if it takes more than 1 round to kill the swarm around him the Great Cleave speed will increase because he has killed more than one creature with a regular attack, doubling or even trippling the Great Cleave hit-rate. Assuming he doesnt miss, that is.

If he gets more than 10 or 15 creatures around him, he really turns into a 'Blender' by the time the last one falls.

It starts off pretty slow. 1 kill per 1.5 seconds or so, but by the end he is killing 3 creatures every second.

As stated above, it is only really usefull against smaller creatures. If you can't get kills in one hit, then Great Cleave wont do you much more good than Cleave.

Even against smaller creatures though, it can save a lot of health in the long run when you can clear 15 goblins in 2 or 3 rounds instead of soaking damage for 10 rounds while you kill them all.

-Jester

[Talan Va'lash]

I wouldn't take great cleave with the character you mentioned since the chance of finishing another creature with your cleave attack is small.  though if you were a half orc scythe weaponmaster... a string of crits with great cleave can get ridiculous.

-TV

[Varka]

Like Talan said: I wouldn't take great cleave with the character you mentioned

But cleave is useful...

Well...Varka has great cleave as he is a Batttle rager. And the only time it has been useful is when he fight in groups....like explained before.

Cool combo is:
A mage shoots a fireball or two against some undeads After that you just charge them and rips them apart with great cleave.  

[akata]

s0ulz - 10/20/2005  9:54 AM

Depends... if you have power attack... sure, if not, then not worth the two feats.

you have to take power attack to get cleave so....
and to teddy you´ll need str 13 to take power attack so if you going for high dex then maybe you should thing about about taking combat expertise and make a fighter with a high ac

-Akata

[Harloff]

I have always taken power attack and cleave when i have a fighter type. For several reasons: first of all i like the extra edge you get in combats it is of course useless if you fight only one foe but how often does that happen.. secondly i want it just because i think it is cool especially with great cleave a fighter must be a bad ass in order to cleave a person and still have enough speed/energy in the weapon to hit the next man but to be able to cleave say ten in a row that is BAD. Thirdly well in a way i find that a warrior should have it just for RP purposes.

"Great cleave" Is a bit useless but Skarp has the feat, because I was planning that he should have Dev. Crit.. Only to be disappointed when I found out that you need str 30 to get it on Layo. Hence he can't get it before level 32 if i sacrifice everything else (except soul mother defense of course).

If I was me I would give him cleave just for the style factor, but not great cleave unless someone forced me to do it. *looks around to see if someone is watching him*

[miltonyorkcastle]

if you are a dex based fighter, what is your strength?  because 'power attack' (the req for 'cleave')  has a strength req of 13 I think.

[gecko1969]

Kind OT but Whirlwind is like Great Cleave on demand... Works great against groups of lower level critters if you are knocking them down with one hit anyway. Yes it take more feats to get it but they are all useful. Spring Attack rules! Not getting attacked when you go to drink that life saving healing potion can save your life, or if you need to rush to the aid of a fallen party member or to remove yourself from battle. No more attacks! Save up for it (probably too late now) as seeing you are a dex fighter you will have an awsome dodge to boot..

[Doc-Holiday]

9 in one blow!