Serious Discussion - Family Server

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I have been in a moderately heated (though still respectful, at least on the other person's part - I'm not as sure about myself after the last message I sent) discussion with another player here at Layonara who I suffer an extreme difference of opinion with. Now, I brought my difference of opinion to this person's attention, and initiated a discussion. The other person's responses were respectfully meant, if admittedly the ideas therein were offensive to me, and as such I was as respectful as possible in return. So far four respectful messages were sent, and one - the last one sent, a message from me - was rather heated, though I did do my best to refrain from being argumentative or hostile, and believe I succeeded in that endeavour.

However, my final point in the message was this (though I did make some changes here for flow; my vanity couldn't stand posting my shabby feel for text publicly):

Layonara is a family server. Discrimination, be it based on skin colour, gender, or preferences in romantic partners, has no place here.

Now, I know that the "Moral Majority" party in the United States is primarily Christian in nature, and that thier ideas of what is immoral may differ from non-Christian ideas. My question here, is this.

Layonara is indeed a family server. However, what does this mean? Are we held to standards of a specific dogma, or are the ideas of acceptance and goodwill more important to the community?

I know that, in the end, life as a player on Layonara will continue unchanged, no matter what answer finally surfaces. But I still feel it is important that the moral drive behind our world is known. I, for one, would also like to know the players' feelings on this... I know, from example, that the majority of players seem to be more about acceptance, but was this just luck of the draw for posters? Or was it truly the overall spirit of this community, as I've thought since I started?

[LoganGrimnar]

you cant really set a line, a point for what that means. The best way to think of it is to use your best judgment on things. when you do something think, "Would i do this infront of my mother, father, grandmother, son, the 5 year old girl down the street."

If that line of thinking comes up and fails, and you have an issue with someone else becouse of it. Take it to the one that is in charge. Family server means whatever Leanthar wants it to mean, so speak to him, with this other person, and let him set that complcation stright.

you cant really set a hard coded line of what is family and what is not. Its best judgment, and when coulter comes in and has differences, take it up with the guy that sets the rules.

[Chongo]

I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way....

but I'm going to go hunt some giants with my dwarf.


And I'm going to think about things dwarves think about.  Like hunting giants.

[LoganGrimnar]

Ahh, the simple that is a dwarf.

[Xandor Loriland]

I will offer my thoughts on what I see as a definition of a family friendly server.  I am a parent that has two of my teen age children playing on the server.  So when I saw that the server was family friendly this is what I thought it meant.

Just like in movie ratings there are certain topics or ways of dealing with topics that are age appropriate.  Family friendly means that a family can play here and not be afraid that their children will be exposed to material that they would consider objectional or age inappropriate.  Based on the skill sets needed to play online in Layonara there is a minimum age at which anyone will be able to play.  That age is probably about nine or ten from what I've seen.  Some elements of NWN/Layo content are going to be there regardless of player behavior (violence related to killing monsters, good and evil people in the world, magic and deities, etc).  I would assume that parents that would be offended by that content would not let their children play NWN at all, much less online in Layo.  So, I look at the family friendly designation as addressing the elements of content that are brought to the game by the players and GMs.  So I would think that without knowing anything personal about the player behind a character that a rule of thumb would be to assume that every player is a 9 or 10 year old and act in there presence as you would your little brother or little sister.  The areas that are typically controversial and raise eyebrows for me are areas of language (cussing and such) and sexuality (elements of sexuality that a 9 or 10 year old would not be ready to accept or may not have been exposed to).  Here a thumbrule would be that if a 9 or 10 year old would be exposed to something in life in general from society and cultrure then its probably fair game (mild language, kissing, hugging, holding hands, etc.)  Behavior and discussion that could potentially expose a young person to issues that their parents would otherwise have control over the timing of that exposure should be avoided.  To make a movie analysis a PG rating is probably a good thumbrule.  

The biggest problem with this type of discussion is that it tends to devolve into a legalistic list of rules so I have tried to be more thumbrule oriented.  

The last thing I think should be said is that tolerance and acceptance are great values but there is a balance like with anything.  When acceptance and tolerance are used to force someone to accept another person's moral values then its just as bad as someone pushing a particular moral value on someone else.  So I don't really see this as a moral values vs tolerance choice.  Its really got to be a balance of both.  I think Leanthar has set a standard of respect and balance that allows everyone to have fun without offending people in the process.  I don't know if I have made any sense here but hopefully it helps.

[twidget658]

I like the giant hunting idea, for one of Rodlin's favored enemies is giants, however...

I do have an 11-year-old and a 14-year-old that play. I have taken my oldest son hunting. He has even taken some small game and we had it for breakfast. My youngest son is a bit smaller and cannot safety handle a weapon properly but he has gone to the gun range. Therefore, going out and 'hunting' the evil of the world is not that bad influence on them. This is non-PVP server, which means that they cannot kill other players, another positive.

Now to the sex and other material that is started to creep back up, whatever you do behind closed doors is your own business; locked doors not accessible to others. It has its place and there are servers that support it. Not every server has to support homosexuality or even heterosexuality. Though I think romances are fine, I think an outright public display of affection is indecent and should be limited, just a personal opinion, though.

I coach little league baseball (11-12 year-olds). There was a young couple sitting on the bleachers just to the left side of the centerfielder. They were all touchy-feely and kissing and such. I was about to put a 5 oz 9 inch circumference spherical object into play at a distance of about 210 feet (regulation field…200 feet). This would have made some awful noise as it banged around some aluminum bleachers. Instead, we allowed them to leave peacefully. The couple was a distraction to the kids and it was totally inappropriate for this couple to be acting like that at a ballpark with 11 and 12 year olds. I feel the same about Layonara. As the saying goes, “Get a room!”

Now, since I have wasted very valuable time typing this instead of playing...I have some catching up to do IG!

*waves goodbye as he is logging on*

[Nibor21]

On the subject of sex, I feel that if it can shown on TV before the watershed then it should be safe to be seen on Layo

(for americans and other aliens, in the UK the Watershed is a 9pm rule put in place by the TV regulators and says that everything before it has to be able to be viewed by children - so no sex, limited violence and language)

[Acacea]

It has nothing to do with the "moral majority" or the religious stances of the various people playing here. We have people here from a lot of places and the server cannot afford to have a hard stance on one viewpoint that is based on only a small section of the playerbase.

...And it doesn't matter. Why? Because it's a game, and no one should be using someone else's game as a soapbox, whether or not I agree or disagree. Start a political party enforcing the use of velcro to hold up ceiling fans? Sure! Whatever! Does it always make sense for one to be formed in character, in a medieval setting, particularly if it is just to hand out real-life pamphlets? (Rhetorical.)

For the most part, everyone is here for at least somewhat similar reasons. Reasons that often do not involve bringing all the real life problems to Layo, and rehashing them all over the forums. The large majority do not come to deliberately offend, are not looking for an "adult" server or anything obscene, are not intentionally vulgar without cause, and have some standards of decency when interacting with other players, because that's how they want to do it. To have a good time. EVERYone, as standards of race, religion, and preference alike are much easier to forget in a faceless medium.

(In some cases of course, people are MORE offensive, simply because they feel like they cannot be held accountable and it is anonymous... but we are talking "most people here," for whom I feel it is the other way around.)


These are not in place because we might run into little Johnny and we don't want to offend him or bring him out of a bubble (sorry, tell me that's the reason when we are in a setting that does not involve hacking at limbs and imploding people), but because that is the standard of interaction that the large majority of players hold each other to.

I think you will find that few people care who or what you or your character are interested in, as long as they don't have to hose you off their front lawn. Forget Johnny, I walk barefoot on that lawn. I was fine with the basic "keep it off the street" rule for the game because I don't really care what anyone is doing or with whom, as long I am not greeted with gropers eeeevery time I walk into Hlint. We have Xeen and she'd mess around with a lamp, enough said already for what should or should not be accepted as a CHARACTER stance.  

The term "family friendly" might as well be a tag attached to make sure anyone who is actively looking for something on the less-than-decent side, goes away from the start. It does not, or at least should not, mean that everyone must pretend that every person addressed is a ten year old, or that every character must be a cookie cutter one, ignoring valid options in development and viewpoint.

Have standards of decency? Sure. Because there are so many ten year olds running around here? No. Please let this not turn into a discussion on how to be PC on Layo, where it becomes necessary to point out how filthy it is everywhere else in order to remind people how carebear-clean it is here, let alone what most ten year olds are actually exposed to.

I do not mean "clean" as in everyone has the same ideas and dogmas and viewpoints, as for the most part I simply don't care what any of them are in this setting, wishing neither to support one nor ban another. If I were forced to, I would probably disagree with everyone, likely get irritated and find their reasons arbitrary and annoying, and in general enjoy my time here a great deal less.

In addition... I feel the reason for starting this thread was somewhat on the "not cool" side, as unless I am completely mistaken, it is clear what the subject was, in this private discussion via private message. If this DID come up because of a locked thread, it seems like the big "TOPIC FROZEN" sign (and by request, might I add) would be the reason it went to PMs in the first place. Had the question simply been, "what -exactly- does family friendly mean to everyone?" there would be less of an underhanded 'taking it back out of PMs' feel to it, with no continuing of likely unwanted attention and without the very clearly biased slant of options in the original post (ie "you with evil them or good me?").

If nothing else, bringing a private message discussion back to the forums instead of just asking Leanthar or individual players (is that not clear and directly related to the question?) feels awkward to respond to, as I am not really interested in anyone's personal correspondence, whatever my own feelings on the subject are.

If anyone would like to know my opinions, they are as always free to PM me, with the acknowledgement that the P stands for Private, and it does not directly concern the Layo gaming community.

[Fortnight]

descrimination is only illegal, or 'wrong' in certain matters, medical aid, housing, employment, etc. Most of these are governed by civil laws. EVERYONE descriminates, and is descriminted against.
You consciously descriminate when you choose your friends, the type of bread you like, the brand of vehicle you prefer to buy. A person who's moral or religious beliefs are one way will descriminate FOR people who hold the same or similar views and AGAINST those who's are outside a reletively small 'comfort zone' It's human nature. Descrimination is not the same as racism or sexism. Not everyone is a racist or a bigot, everyone descriminates. I descrimintatred against a dozen other NwN PW's when I came to play here.

Descrimination based on race, sex, religion, nation of origin or sexual orientation on Layonara is just silly. It's a game, and unless you come out and TELL people "Hey, I'm a three legged martian who worships a 4th dimensional being that resembles a cornflake, and let me tell ya the stories about what we REALLY do with those probes..." Well, then, who knows what you are,do or look like. I personally dnot CARE. I am here to interact with your character, not you. When I get groggy and log off I don't say "Gee, I really hope that John Jones isn't around tomorrow, his green skin and wierd theological ideas really make me uncomfortable" I think "I hope I get to RP with some new folks tomorrow, today was lots of fun!"

I think family friendly is a lot easier to maintain if a certain relistic distance is maintained. I don't know any of the people who play here, we could pass on the street and I wouldn't recognise you. I'm never going to go out of my way to MEET anyone from here in RL. I have a seperation between my fantasy and my reality, my passtime and my RL that I think, personaly is healthy.

If I start discussion my religious beliefs with you, or my sexual orientation, or lack thereof, that lends itself to people having reason to descriminate. If I am just Aegidriel, that elf guy. Well, you may descriminate, because your character doesn't like elves, or blonde male characters, of people taller than him, whatever, but it's in RP, it's against my character, and not me, the same holds true in reverse. I think THAT is the foundation of being family friendly. If you set boundries about what you are willing to divulge, and keep your private stuff out of the public eye, theres no room for anyone to form a descriminatory opinion about you.

Sorry, school is still too fresh in my head, civics class debates about this same topic went on for weeks. I must have more sun, and bikini clad females in order to obliterate all learning from last year from my head!

I guess to summarize bluntly, and hopefully not sound like a complete jerk, it's a game. I didn't come here because I want to get to know YOU. I want to get to know your character, I want to RP mine, adventure with people who want to have fun and forget about you all when I turn off my computer.
This isn't life, and you are annonymous if you choose to be. If you choose not to be, prepare for people to make value judgements about what you choose to tell them about yourself, and prepare to be descriminated for or against because of it.

Personaly, I think if you enter into a situation where you are conversing about something you feel strongly about, with someone who holds an opposed view, which in reality has nothing to do with anyones ability to play the game, it's never going to turn out to your satasfaction.

I feel the need to parry some blows, and maybe find me a healer who wants to get out of Hlint.


Fortnight!

[Fortnight]

I also think Acacea said what I was trying to say, but better on some regards, so, yeah. I nod in admiration to acaceas command of the english language.

Fortnight!

[Niles09]

These are not in place because we might run into little Johnny and we don't want to offend him or bring him out of a bubble.

Looks like people truly have some different moral valuas here. To talk about this "buble" I officially learned about "the way of getting babies (to say it familiy friendly)" when I was 10 years old in school in a book made for 4th grade, and until then there had been alot of gossip about this topic. I find it funny that people gets so upset about this subject, and even funnier that 9-10 year old kids play in here.
What I remember the buble as, is the ignorance to the fact that earth itself is slowly being destroyed because of polution, wars and other evil stuff created because of madmen and money.
To get to the point: In layo Zan have been offended so many times on open street in the sight of many many PC's because of her race, I dont say I have anything against it, but I say its not something 9 or 10 year old kids should see. Neither some of the IG morals about good and evil and all the slaughtering of monsters, stories of drows raiding cities and what about all the demons and devils? I really find it strange no parent in here have been offended or said anything about that, considering what this discussion had lead to.

I dont see a problem in all the gay thing as long as it follows the rules for couples (the kissing hugging and all that described in server rules), there would be something wrong if 9-10 didnt know what a kiss and hug was. I do however find it strange that 9-10 plays here, considiring all the other topics about life that comes up in game.

[Nibor21]

On a lighter note it all depends on what you call suitable for a 'family'.

Laws/views/morales change from place to place. As a well travelled englishman I have been suprised by the moral differences in different countries.

I find many american views on religion and socirty too strict and conservative for my views.

In Kuwait where i was lucky anough to live for six months in younger non-married days i was amazed to rent "Charlies Angel" on video and find that they had cut the bit of the film where Drew Barrymore licks a steering wheel in a Rolls Royce. It was done because it hinted towards things of a sexual nature in a maneer that would only be called titilation over here and would be shown at prime-time pre-watershed. And yet when it comes the family in the house, many arabs are more liberal with there families than US or Europeans are despite the way we in the west view them.

oh and on a final note, certain groups consider Dungeons & Dragons to be evil, morallly wrong and a source of corruption for teens around the world. Should I stop playing now or have I time to kill one more giant?

[goldz8]

Homosexual animals:
http://www.seedmagazine.com/news/2006/06/the_gay_animal_kingdom.php

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Animal Farm: A Fairy Story, George Orwell

[kenty191]

Acacea - 7/6/2006  8:02 AM  If this DID come up because of a locked thread, it seems like the big "TOPIC FROZEN" sign (and by request, might I add) would be the reason it went to PMs in the first place.

 I requested the other topic be locked after what was a fairly reasoned discussion about in character reactions disintergrated into an airing of OOC homophobic views.
  As Stephen has stated 'discrimination' is against server rules, however this was not discrimination as such, but a prejudicial view, one Aragon was entitled to. However the problem comes when it is aired in public to incite retaliation, which the post was clearly meant to do.
  I saw the topic going nowhere but 'tit-for'tat' as we say in england after that. Someone would argue for homosexuality and someone against, both in OOC context, that was not what I intended for the topic and so I requested it locked.
  While this issue will remain long after both this and the couples thread fade into the depths of the forum, I dont believe either the previous thread or this new one are contributing to reasoned debate.
  Having witnessed similar discussions on other servers decend into similar chaos I had hoped the largely logical, considerate and friendly members of this community would be able to avoid this OOC debate on society, however I have since learned this is a volitile topic when it is taken to OOC levels and personally I can't wait for this and the other topic to fade away from my sight, at least for the moment.
  In addition I dont think anyone really sees this topic heading in any logical direction either, perhaps it is best to let it die?
  Perhaps in the future, we will revist this, I hope so.

[Ne'er]

Basically, I agree with what Acacea and Fortnight said above, and I really don't see why we need to be having this discussion on the forums in an RP world. I here enough about these issues on the news, in school, etc. and frankly I'm sort of sick of it.

Now, having that said I guess I'll chime in for a little bit. At my school, we have a day once a year called "Blue Day" and it is sold off as a  day where the size of the homosexual population is recognized by having 1/10th of the students wear a blue ribbon around their arm. Some people love the idea. Personally, I can't stand the idea of a blue day, in the same way that I can't stand the idea of a Red Day that would promote heterosexuality. I don't know why we need to have them. In todays society we are encouraged to be able to make our own choices, and I really don't think we need to have either side throwing their opinions at us. This is a reason why I don't think we need to represent either sexual orientation in our server, because those of us who are still young don't need another place where opinions and ideas are being thrown at us, trust me, we get more than enough of it from our parents and from our teachers.

As for public displays of affection? There is never really any need for it, and this is coming from a teenage boy still in highschool, so I think I see more than enough to deem it appropriate or inappropriate. Why would it be more appropriate than violence in this case? Because when parents get their kid this game, or at least watch the game for a few seconds they know about the violence in it. That isn't a problem, because the game was designed with the intent of being violent. However, romance and sexuality is something that we as players introduce into the world, it is something parents can't really know is going to be in the game when they first get it. That's why parents may have a problem with it, and not the violence.

In the end, like Acacea said, this isn't the place to make grand political statements. This isn't the place to support political beliefs of any form, or to really even bring politics into the picture. Users aren't allowed to advertise for a product (I can't walk in here and tell everyone they should come to my bakery and buy a cake, that wouldn't sit well with L, I'm sure) so why should we advertise political beliefs?

Basically, if you want to make a difference in how things are viewed and treated, stand on a soapbox and preach to the masses, start a rally, form a political party, whatever. It will be FAR more effective than fighting on the internet with people halfway across the world who you have most likely never and will never meet.

[ZeroVega]

I said it once and I'll say it again. It's not up to US to decide what children of other parents are subjected to. If a parent turns off the "Blood" on Layonara and thinks it's good enough; thinks their child won't really read too much into killing people without the gore; then that is their decision, not ours. This "bubble" may be unnecessary as it seems many people are saying, but again, it's not for us to decide and it's our job to TRY and make this server "Family Friendly" to the point where kids and teen and adults won't be subject to content that they do not want.

That being said, I have no problem with it. I'd state my personal opinion, but we're talking about RP here not real life. Still, I can't help but asking: Is another facet of RP worth the possibility of it ripping Layonara apart. We've already seen one person threaten to leave and I can't help but think that more are musing along those lines. If this is completely about RP and not about RL opinions or beliefs, is it worth it? Is it worth losing players over?

[Leanthar]

A few notes that were posted by others that I agree with and then a few closing statements.
  "I really don't see why we need to be having this discussion on the forums in an RP world. I here enough about these issues on the news, in school, etc. and frankly I'm sort of sick of it."
  "If I start discussion my religious beliefs with you, or my sexual orientation, or lack thereof, that lends itself to people having reason to descriminate. If I am just Aegidriel, that elf guy. Well, you may descriminate, because your character doesn't like elves, or blonde male characters, of people taller than him, whatever, but it's in RP, it's against my character, and not me, the same holds true in reverse. I think THAT is the foundation of being family friendly. If you set boundries about what you are willing to divulge, and keep your private stuff out of the public eye, theres no room for anyone to form a descriminatory opinion about you."
  "I guess to summarize bluntly, and hopefully not sound like a complete jerk, it's a game. I didn't come here because I want to get to know YOU. I want to get to know your character, I want to RP mine, adventure with people who want to have fun...."
  "...And it doesn't matter. Why? Because it's a game, and no one should be using someone else's game as a soapbox, whether or not I agree or disagree. Start a political party enforcing the use of velcro to hold up ceiling fans? Sure! Whatever! Does it always make sense for one to be formed in character, in a medieval setting, particularly if it is just to hand out real-life pamphlets? (Rhetorical.)"
  "In addition... I feel the reason for starting this thread was somewhat on the "not cool" side, as unless I am completely mistaken, it is clear what the subject was, in this private discussion via private message. If this DID come up because of a locked thread, it seems like the big "TOPIC FROZEN" sign (and by request, might I add) would be the reason it went to PMs in the first place. Had the question simply been, "what -exactly- does family friendly mean to everyone?" there would be less of an underhanded 'taking it back out of PMs' feel to it, with no continuing of likely unwanted attention and without the very clearly biased slant of options in the original post (ie "you with evil them or good me?")."
  "The term "family friendly" might as well be a tag attached to make sure anyone who is actively looking for something on the less-than-decent side, goes away from the start. It does not, or at least should not, mean that everyone must pretend that every person addressed is a ten year old, or that every character must be a cookie cutter one, ignoring valid options in development and viewpoint. Have standards of decency? Sure."
  "Now to the sex and other material that is started to creep back up, whatever you do behind closed doors is your own business; locked doors not accessible to others. It has its place and there are servers that support it. Not every server has to support homosexuality or even heterosexuality. Though I think romances are fine, I think an outright public display of affection is indecent and should be limited."
  "Family friendly means that a family can play here and not be afraid that their children will be exposed to material that they would consider objectional or age inappropriate."
  "The last thing I think should be said is that tolerance and acceptance are great values but there is a balance like with anything. When acceptance and tolerance are used to force someone to accept another person's moral values then its just as bad as someone pushing a particular moral value on someone else. So I don't really see this as a moral values vs tolerance choice. Its really got to be a balance of both."
  "As for public displays of affection? There is never really any need for it, and this is coming from a teenage boy still in highschool, so I think I see more than enough to deem it appropriate or inappropriate. Why would it be more appropriate than violence in this case? Because when parents get their kid this game, or at least watch the game for a few seconds they know about the violence in it. That isn't a problem, because the game was designed with the intent of being violent. However, romance and sexuality is something that we as players introduce into the world, it is something parents can't really know is going to be in the game when they first get it."
  "this isn't the place to make grand political statements. This isn't the place to support political beliefs of any form, or to really even bring politics into the picture. Users aren't allowed to advertise for a product (I can't walk in here and tell everyone they should come to my bakery and buy a cake, that wouldn't sit well with L, I'm sure) so why should we advertise political beliefs?"
  "...but we're talking about RP here not real life...."
   A few last things: First I have to say there was no solid reason to start this thread and I think it was wrong to start it. With that said this topic will be frozen after I post.
  The first day that I decide my children should not be playing in this world is the day I close it down, and that is a fact. It will have meant that I have lost control on the decency level within the community and because people are not using good judgement I am no longer going to SPEND $3,000 - $5,000 a year in order to let others thrash the world and/or my children or the families of others. That would be stupid and it would not be right for the familes that enjoy the world.
  We do not need to have topics of religion, politics, or sex in this community. Those three things tend to stir up heated passions and they are not for an RP community in a fantasy setting. There are litterally 1000's of other sites on the web that support that and will support others in their views. Lets not do it here.
  The rules are clear and for people to purposely violate them means they do not respect the community or the rules. Those people should not be playing here as once again there are many other servers out there that support that playe style, but Layonara is not one of them. You can agree or disagree with the rules, that is your decision, but the fact of the matter is they are the rules on this server. If you want to play in this community then you need to abide by the rules, that is another fact that needs to be understood. To continually try to pick or ply at the rules because one does not believe abc or xyz is wrong, the rules are there for a reason, if you don't like them, well, that is your opinion.
  If players want to leave because of the lack of sex or not being able to RP sex or the lack of political or sexual discussion then so be it, goodbye. This world and this community is not formed for those things. I am not against any of this, far from it, but this is not the community to discuss it, go find the servers and/or sites out there that do support it.
  This topic is frozen.