Divine Relation:

[Krell Himmler]

Just for Toran's DR

# Enemy:

    * Pyrtechon - CE
    * Shadon - CE
    * Branderback -CE
    * Corath - CE
    * Mist - CN
    * Baraeon Ca'Duz LE
    * Kithairien - CN
    * Xeen - CN
    * Vierdri’ira - NE
    * Grand - CE

Beryl and Lucinda are gone as enemies.
I may have gotten some alignments wrong up there, but you get the picture .

[Hellblazer]

In his case though it falls that Corath is pretty much enemy to all. But like we are trying to say, to many other deities, there will be differences. There is good vs good also as well as evil vs evil.

/edit

It doesn't mean that because someone falls into the enemies section of a god, that that person is evil or his god is evil. You just happen to follow the one that is enemy to all (i think) and evil.

there is a few cn in there which is not evil, although we could sometime argue that the chars are more than their own Gods hehe.

[lonnarin]

Shadon's CN.  I always thought he had a bad rep quite undeservedly.  For a merry little mad gnomish prankster, sure many people should dislike him on the list, but far too many HATE him.  Then Sulterio, the tyrannical god of law whose followers execute you for such pranks likes him!  Never thought the Grimlord had a sense of humor, but maybe that's just it... he never laughs or smiles his entire life and this crazy little gnome is the only one who can get him to bust out into a belly laugh.

Maybe the goodly gods would like him more if instead of summoning undead wraiths, his followers summoned flying pies.  I know I would.

[Krell Himmler]

In his case though it falls that Corath is pretty much enemy to all. But like we are trying to say, to many other deities, there will be differences. There is good vs good also as well as evil vs evil.

That's true, I should discuss the bigger picture more....

In general what I am asking for is that ALL relations are made more subtle, whether good to good or evil to evil or evil to good etc etc etc.

The effect is more obvious on good and evil relations as the latter will often attempt to hide it, where say a Lucinite and a Toranite will not hide their religion so it is obvious that they are enemies and why they are.

The point I was getting at is if someone doesn't openly admit their religion or wear the religion on their clothing one is safe to assume that it is more likely than not a bad one when a good cleric uses divine relation on them.

I guess I'm wondering now, would a cleric be aware of all of the enemies and friends of their god? Or is the list of enemies/friends unknown to the cleric?

But I will fall silent for awhile and allow others to contribute

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Well, all I'd do now is put this on hold until someone like Dorg, Ed, or Leanthar made a statement, because we are starting to bicker over details on not what Krell is trying to get at.

[Hellblazer]

In the vast majority of cases I agree with you. But It think it is also a question of mechanics. Which only a coder like Dorg, dark or others on the team could enlighten us.

An other point I want also to relate is, it depends on the personality of the character too. Lex is a more posed person than let's say, hum a voraxian dwarf cleric full of ale. He wont go right ahead and scream out "Evil" or enemy. He is going to be more subtle about it and bid his time to have more proof.  So I guess it is also on how people rp their chars. If it's in the personality of that char to raise up hell and brandish his weapons trying to decapitate any one that is "enemy" to his god, then eh all power to him. But it is something that any one from any deity have to expect.

hehe I remember a little incident with Brian. Where he was trying to join a party, while he was still a misty, and even the cleric didn't trust him because he was a rogue and refused to believe he was a misty. Cleric at that time was also a misty. Was pretty funny.

I guess I'm wondering now, would a cleric be aware of all of the enemies and friends of their god? Or is the list of enemies/friends unknown to the cleric?

But I will fall silent for awhile and allow others to contribute

thats my personal belief and it's not in any kind of formally official, but I do think the clerics knows who is what in regards to their God.

[ystrday]

I know this is a little off topic, but it brings up another view point of Gods relationship with each other, and divine revelation. If a cleric does divine revelation on someone and sees "hey he is a follower to a god who is friendly to mine", and later that follower falls in battle the cleric already knows that his God will not be upset if the cleric raised the dead guy and does so. But now after raising the dead guy he tells you the God he follows doesn't like your God... oops then what?  

What I find funny is how God A views God B as friendly, but God B is unfriendly to God A. What is a cleric of God A supposed to do if a follower of God B falls in battle?

Why personally I do not like or hardly use divine revelation because it is alot more to it then seeing friendly, neutral, enemy or unfriendly in the little chat box. And just wait for it to come in RP it out.

[lonnarin]

It reminds me of back when I got beaten in catholic school for asking the nun...

"God loves everbody?"
"Yes"
"Even the Devil?"
"Yes, even the Devil."
"Should we love the Devil?"
"No!"
"But God says we should love everybody..."


On that note though, good point ystrday.  I think the gods prefer that you judge the CHARACTER of the PC and his actions rather than his allegiences to some degree.  If a Prunillite and a Toranite are both sworn enemies of the undead legions, then their gods disliking eachother is a pittance compared to their liking eachother and having the same goals.  Bear in mind as well that people of "heretical" faiths can also be saved and converted.  Preach to them instead of shunning them, its your duty.  Conversion doesn't always need to be at the end of the sword, nor should it ever be for many of these goodly gods' faiths.  An Azattan for example hates Caduz, but he's not going to run around slaughtering Caduzites and neither would Aeriden do the same with Corath.  

Much of this was covered in a post "RPing clerics with topsy turvy like/dislike" which can be found stickied in the "Ask a GM" section.

[Hellblazer]

hehehe that one always makes me laugh. Well not the beaten part of course.

[Serissa]

To a cleric, an enemy to her god must be an enemy--using divine powers on that person means risking her relationship to her god and losing her connection and her powers.  It doesn't matter whether the person himself is good or evil.  This has been demonstrated more than once by the real powers-that-be.

[miasma_hemlock]

Also..  Having an enemy doesn't mean you have to KILL them.  It might mean you should try to convert them away from being a heathen, or if you're say a cleric of a crafting or trading god you might try to destroy them and their church financially, or it might just mean that you consider everything they touch to be unclean and has to be washed or destroyed.  Or you can just ridicule them for being so misguided.  There's a lot you can do with an enemy that doesn't involve smiting and arguing, which can be really tedious...

(And "unfriendly" isn't "enemy", this always drove me crazy when people went too far with that...)

All that said, I do think the relations system is really too complex for a world with so few players, it made a lot more sense when Layo was crawling with people and it might work again in the next version.  But that can be said about the economy too.

[Gulnyr]

What I meant was a move to greater subtlety, that is it would be impossible to walk up to a living character and determine friendly/enemy status. Only when dead and if they allowed it could you see the deity/deity relation.

What does that mean?  It's very confusing.  

First, I don't understand why a Cleric could sense the nature of a corpse's faith but not the nature of a living person's faith.  Faith in Layonara is powerful, not just some 'Easter Catholic' thing.  If a character has a deity in his blank, then he's strongly faithful, and the power of that faith flows from him.  

Second, how does a dead person grant or withhold permission?

I just think the relations need a *little* more subtlety in that determining the relation between yourself and them is not easy.

If a god can allow certain people to cast powerful spells, I think he could whisper whether or not he likes some guy's faith to those same people pretty easily.  It's vague already, as others have said.

I know this is a little off topic, but it brings up another view point of Gods relationship with each other, and divine revelation. If a cleric does divine revelation on someone and sees "hey he is a follower to a god who is friendly to mine", and later that follower falls in battle the cleric already knows that his God will not be upset if the cleric raised the dead guy and does so. But now after raising the dead guy he tells you the God he follows doesn't like your God... oops then what?

Then carry on.  The raising Cleric's god is fine with it, so who cares what the other god thinks?  If the raised character feels bad, then he needs to take action to prevent it in the future.  Maybe he can ask not to be raised again.  Maybe he can find someone new to adventure with.  That's his problem, not the raising Cleric's problem.

What I find funny is how God A views God B as friendly, but God B is unfriendly to God A. What is a cleric of God A supposed to do if a follower of God B falls in battle?

*points up*

Why do the gods have to have mutually identical opinions?  Is there no one in the world you don't like who seems to like you just fine?  Is there no one you like who doesn't feel one way or the other about you?  In-game, there are characters who dislike Jennara, but Jennara doesn't dislike them even though she knows how they feel.  Why should the gods be any different?

[Hellblazer]

All that said, I do think the relations system is really too complex for a world with so few players, it made a lot more sense when Layo was crawling with people and it might work again in the next version.  But that can be said about the economy too.

I'd say that in the past couple of weeks, when I see 20+ people on the server it's pretty much the same as when I joined 2 years ago. Just monday the servers were pack. Hence I think it is still important wither or not there is a lot of people on, this is a rp server and the rp should remain high even if there is only 3 people online at a given time.

[Dorganath]

I'm going to make some general statements here, because there's faaaaar too many comments above to respond to each one.  If, after I've said what I have, there are specific questions, then please ask for clarification.

Mechanically speaking, Divine Relation is a spell.  This means for programming and in-game use purposes, it looks and acts like a spell.  However, if we take a moment and pretend that our characters are real people, Divine Relation doesn't really exist.  Instead, what your character is doing is praying and asking their respective deity how He or She feels about the deity of the targeted person.
 
From the LORE page for [lore]Divine Relation[/lore] (and much of which is my own words again):

Mechanically, Divine Relation is a spell/cantrip. In the reality of the gameworld however, it's a "sense".
This means that, despite the inevitable in-game animation of casting a spell, the cleric actually doesn't do anything more than take an extra moment to look at someone.
By extension, the target PC will likely be completely unaware that the cleric is "casting" the spell.
Divine Relation does NOT disclose the hearts of individuals.
Divine Relation does NOT disclose "evilness" or any other alignment factor.
Divine Relation does NOT disclose the EXACT deity one follows.
Divine Relation does NOT mimic psionics, mind-reading or anything of the like.
Divine Relation IS, and is ONLY, a cleric asking his or her deity for that deity's opinion on the person...in one word or less. It simply discloses the relationship between the cleric's deity and the individual being inspected: Allied, Friendly, Neutral, Unfriendly or Enemy. I.E. A Lucindite (Lucinda being Neutral Good) using Divine Relation upon a Toranite (being Lawful Good) will get "Enemy" in return. There's nothing "evil" or "Evil" about that result, it's simply one god's opinion of another.

I've bolded a few bits for emphasis.

As has been stated, the relationships between our varied deities are rather complex, and as such whether or not Deity A likes Deity B does not neatly run down alignment lines.  Toran and Lucinda are a perfect example of this, being at least unfriendly to each other even though alignment-wise, they are only a single step away from each other (LG vs. NG).  

Now...the question often asked is "why?".  The simple answer is that the deities of Layonara are in fact very active within the world, and while they do not make their presence directly known (i.e. they do not walk among mortals), they also are not the sort to sit back and let the world do its own thing.  They gain and lose power from the faith and number of their followers, and that power is always being matched against those of their enemies.  As such, there is absolutely no reason why Diety A would be happy about bestowing His/Her blessings upon someone who is a devout of an enemy.  And let's also be clear of another thing:  the "spells"  that clerics cast are the result of prayers.  They ask, and their respective deities provide.  Clerics don't cast spells directly like other casters.  We could argue D&D rules and mechanics on this point, but they don't apply as such in our setting.

And so, since our deities are active and do care about their clerics keeping to their word and dogma.  Every one of the spells they grant to their clerics are blessings, and they will make their preferences known if those blessings go to aid their enemies.  The most profound example of this is when someone is Raised or Resurrected.  This is arguably the most "special" blessing a deity can bestow, and again if it is used to benefit an enemy, then they will send a message. That is not the only time they notice, but those especially get their attention.

Clearly, our deities are not entirely mechanical entities, though we do enforce some aspects of them as scripted/programmed systems.  However, GMs fill in where mechanics leave off.  We know the specifics of deities of characters, and if we see a cleric failing to hold to the dogma of their faith, they will know the displeasure of their deity.  Ask any of the divinely-empowered characters who have lost some or all of their powers as a punishment from above. The relationships of our deities are not just to add more rules and inconvenience but rather to promote RP.  After all, if you're going to be devoted to a deity, it should be a core of your RP and not just something for convenience and benefits.

We are fully aware that this might complicate the relationships between characters and even RL friends/family.  However, that's the way we want it.  We want our deities to matter.  We want there to be real conflict because of such things. We want people to be aware of their choices, and the consequences thereof.

I think that's about as clear as I can make it at the moment. I'm certain there may perhaps be more questions, so fire away.

[Eorendil]

What I find funny is how God A views God B as friendly, but God B is unfriendly to God A. What is a cleric of God A supposed to do if a follower of God B falls in battle?

Its a perception thing.  Ever know someone who follows someone else around like a puppy but that other person couldn't care less about who that person is or maybe they are even repulsed by that person?  What you're seeing in the divine relation is how that god feels about the other god and what they represent.  It shifts on a more grand scale and may be a touch more melodramatic than people's relations but the basics are the same.  Like Gulnyr said.

Additionally, and this has been said before.. only those characters who are deeply entrenched.. perhaps near zealotry.. should have the deity in their deity field.  Lots of people pay lipservice and attend services of any given diety or dieties.. but that doesn't mean they are "the faithfull".

[ycleption]

@Krell,
As others have pointed out, Shadon is on those lists... And especially if wandering around the Hempstead docks, one is likely to encounter a number of Shadonites...
Also, just because I feel like being a snot, not because it makes the point you're making any less valid, Ca'duz is NE, so no, your original point that "Well if you glance at a few of the good gods you will start to find many of them ONLY have CE opposition" Isn't quite right...

Actually Krell, the player doesn't know you are evil. He knows your char follows an Evil God.

Yes, the -player- only knows that you follow an enemy god, but the -character- probably considers you evil no matter what your alignment actually is, or which of those deities on the "enemy" list you actually follow. Every character has, or should have a different conception of what evil is, and for divinely inspired characters, that conception should in part flow from the ideas of the deity. So I really think this conversation is going in the wrong direction: corathites shouldn't be worried that they will be treated poorly after being "discovered" as an enemy, it's part of playing a corathite. On the other hand, if more Deliarites started accusing Toranites of being evil oppressors  of free trade (or whatever),  and more Dorandites started railing against that evil Ilsare, flighty thing that she is...
Well, then maybe it wouldn't feel that you were being singled out...

[Pseudonym]

@Krell - I have always assumed that the vast majority of the commoner population have a 'blank' in their deity field and would pray to a particular God/dess as the situation demanded. Hoping for a good harvest .. out goes the prayer to Prunilla. Bandits howling at the gates .. maybe a prayer to Rofi or Vorax to see them routed. Want that girl at the local fair to lower her defences .. how 'bout asking Xeen to look down favourably? Storm threatening .. please intervene Mist. Anyway, you get the idea.

Before my character Virtue had his falling out with the Mad God, he/I had prepared for all those pesky priests and their Divine Relation ability by having a deity relations chart handy beside the computer (I had RPed and put in his CDT his study of the the interwoven faith relationships). There is ALWAYS a non-evil enemy God to whom you can claim to have just offered a prayer - there is always a way to explain yourself and your worship in a non-illegal (according to Rofi law) manner.

Okay, say hypothetically, you're a filthy Corathite. Who is doing the accusing? There are lots of alternatives you can claim to explain why their God disapproves of you (and your deity).

Priest/ess of Aeridin - Vorax, Shadon, Branderback.
Priest/ess of Aragen - Vorax, Mist, Xeen.
Priest/ess of Az'atta - Vorax, Mist, Dorand, Branderback.
Priest/ess of Toran - They're the best cos you can be lsare, Deliar, Lucinda, Aragen, Shindaleria, Prunilla, Beryl, Shadon, Branderback, Mist, Kithairien, Xeen.

And so on and so on.

I still remember the RP of Pendar the Aragenite vomiting (he was always an overactor) after he had raised Virtue and accusing him of following an evil God. Virtue claimed, "Hold on, we were just in a furious battle, of course I asked the Father of Battle (or, Farder o' Baddle to dem dwarves) to strengthen my sword-arm and bless my blade, etc".

Some might argue that such loosely held and fluctuating faith should show up your character as neutral on a cleric's radar but, to me, such semantics were almost OOC arguments. Who are mere mortals to explain the workings of the Deity relations ability? IC, you at least had an explanation, at least had an argument, could plant the seeds of doubt. I had also quick-keyed a whole bunch of emotes like "For Mist!", "For the Great Gold!", "For Vorax!", "For the Lightbringer!" that Virtue uses quite often that helped reinforce his multi-deity facade.

[Acacea]

An Azattan for example hates Caduz, but he's not going to run around slaughtering Caduzites

I think this is the most obvious illustration of why "enemy" should not mean aggressively hostile. Az'atta and Ca'duz are one of the most immediate and obvious enemy pairs, but half of the Az'attan faith used to BE followers of Ca'duz. AZ'ATTA was a follower of Ca'duz. Enemy NEVER means 'smite' for Az'atta. It does mean caution, withholding of blessings, and protecting their followers and charges from those enemies and yes, taking up arms if it is absolutely completely no other choice - a big "Beware!" sign on their foreheads. This goes for several 'good' deities, because they are not evil. They are good. This means you can't just run rampant smiting everyone who is an enemy, unless YOU are evil. And more importantly, your god does not want that either. What! I thought they did! No, they don't, because they are Good.

It is important to remember the alignments of our deities when considering the friendly/enemy dilemma. Despite the slander, Aeridin is not an evil hater of mixed blood that... you know the drill. He's NG and practically a pacifist. Does pacifism = good? No way! An Aerdin style evil god would actually be pretty cool - few enemies, so much about doing what is right that they lose sight of good, going so extreme in their beliefs that they become evil in white robes... that would be cool. But it's not Aeridin. He is good, so as players we need to remember that as guidelines for our priests. I think he makes an excellent monk god. No one slanders monks all the time for driving their bodies to the fullest without magical blessing, for spiritual harmony and purification. Just look at a monk, and think that every person could be like that or close if they had the right attitude and didn't taint their natural forms with alien substances and magic that twists and changes the very foundation of their being. Aeridin and most elves in general are among the highest valuers of life and do not seek to end it unnecessarily...elves have such a small population compared to others, and reproduce so slowly. Life is precious.

I got off on a tangent example (what's new), but really I'm just saying that when we read "enemy" it is as much our alignments and those of our deities that determine how we react. Sure, we don't want to go around raising enemies, certainly, not without the most important of causes, but that often doesn't mean freaking out on them and putting a bounty on their heads, either. In an earlier post, an example was given of a cleric of Prunilla being able to weed out all followers of evil gods from the populace just by lining them up and going through them.

But they have farms to tend, meals to cook, children to birth, wounds to heal, and in general are very busy trying to do good in the world in their own fashion. The enemies of Prunilla are the ones that will try to harm that way of life and all the innocents, in a variety of ways... but abandoning the farms, the children, the injured, and the people in general would be just as bad. I can't even imagine what a cleric of Prunilla would do when confronted with a non-hostile enemy. Feed the poor misguided boy some soup while making sure the children are safe? Not use divine gifts on him sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean being aggressively hostile. One of the greatest weapons a god of good has is not a weapon at all, but just goodness. The same thing that is their weakness. Hope, mercy, compassion, all that junk. They come in different flavors, but its still a big G.

The ability to try if they were the type, though, is why worshiping gods of evil - truly worshiping and embracing all that they stand for - has its drawbacks, which is why such groups tend to congregate in hiding and not mingle in the public square. Playing an evil cleric is very hard.

Most of our evil deities are EVIL. Like, capital E I want to set the world in flames and torture little babies evil. Like, I roll around in blood and like it, I sing the evil theme song on the way to work every morning, evil. In other words, they have very short life spans. Branderback is a pretty good evil god. Mostly lone hounds that look out for #1 above all things and only congregating when it is profitable, not setting out to do evil because they are waving the evil flag but rather so self absorbed that they will do whatever it takes to get what they feel they are entitled to, whether murder or whatever. I also like him because CN is an easy fit for him, which is easier for most players. The biggest face of Branderback around is actually CN rather than NE... Sulterio is a good one, too, but he is mostly worshipped by deep dwarves which is a different flag...however with the new Prantz, you could easily get away with a different race.

For the most part though, embracing an evil god is to embrace an evil dogma, which requires some seriously sick and twisted minds that were probably mind-screwed for who knows how long. They ARE the people you get bad feelings about whenever they walk next to you. The bone priest of Corath DOES make you hug the wall when he walks by, whether you are a priest or no. Fisterion smiles like Hannibal Lecter. They're villains, and creepy ones, which is why they are so hard to play, especially if someone wants to be this fresh faced young Corathite. It doesn't often make any sense for worshipers, let alone priests of our evil deities to just be trotting around with everyone else killing goblins together. You have to work really hard to find things that are feasible. By contrast, an evil character that wears a good face and thinks he is good and is just twisted on the inside is much easier, because there is something long-term about him, he often doesn't shriek when babies are killed and passes under the radar. Being utterly devoted to an evil god means you set yourself against the rest of the world, and often your compatriots as well.

Our pantheon is very much more suited to people that 'fall' into worshiping evil gods, rather than starting from the bottom up killing goblins with Toranites while brooding about how to bring the world into eternal darkness.

In short... (I guess I should have started with the short) the original topic was wanting divine relation to be even more subtle, because while it does not detect alignment or deity, several 'good' gods have only evil enemies. Therefore, if you read 'enemy' on divine relation, they already know you worship a corrupted, twisted, deity of ultimate EVIL!

But, to that I say oh well. As above, embracing deities of any alignment has its drawbacks. However, just like a good cleric detecting an enemy is a chance to convert, an 'evil' enemy being detected is an opportunity to pretend to be willing to be converted...while trying to convert them. If you're not good, act good. They'll want to make you see the light. Good characters will bend over backwards trying to bring evil back to the light, but gods aside it is in the end their opinion/indoctrination vs yours. Despite what you go in thinking, one or the other may very well end up on a different side than they expected.

((PS I think paladins detecting the presence of evil in other PCs is lame and they should have divine relation instead like everyone else. ))

((Looong again. ))

[/SIZE]

[deagle]

Reading through has brought some things to my eyes...one of those is that I have never used this cantrip and quite a few have met and traveled with Starr.
 
 I have always tried to rp relationships...he is good at heart and tends to see goodness in most...though his roots cause him to be careful and not give into complete trust...he does look for the goodness in others. He has travelled with others that follow a diety that is unfriendly to his and that is understood...their is not a hatred there between the gods nor is there between the characters...but would I not aid them if needed because of the unfriendly terms?...that would then question his alignment...would Beryl be unhappy that I lent aid to a toranite in need or for common cause or would she be more upset being a deity that also covers protection and healing seeing Starr turn from his alignment and not grant such assistance in a common goal or time of need.
 
 This is where rp comes in....sure I can use a cantrip and make a decision...eh my god doesn't like yours...but have you done anything in character to cause him not to aid you.
 Yes, Starr is a high enough level priest that he is going to have that second sense of unease and discomfort...again aiding in the distrust in the other...
 
 But then again rp will bring out characteristics that will generate reaction.
 Look at my other priest character for example...some know Deagle for what he may be but others are unsure....what is your reaction?
 
 Eh...just a few cents worth...as I always say...lets just go have some fun...you had an idea in mind and an understanding on the rp of this character when your imagination created it in your mind...so enjoy it.
 
 Deagle

[Krell Himmler]

I guess I would most especially love to hear what new people say, ones who havn't been in Layonara for too long. When we are in any culture for a long period of time (including Layonara) we lose the ability to critically analyse and to find faults in things we are a part of. If they disagree with me too I'll shut up . But it would be nice to hear what they have to say.

The points brought up by all are valid as this isn't a debate with a win/lose idea or a best idea philosophy.