Emerald Rumours.

[ycleption]

@RollinsCat
Yes, its price fixing... Giving it a name doesn't make it a bad thing.

When I first started here, there was much more rigid community enforcement of the pricing rules - anybody pricing goods significantly more or less than the community accepted prices (loosely based on lens prices) were spoken to ICly and OOCly... in my opinion, the economy was much healthier because of it. Again, in my opinion (and I know some people here may disagree with me), the way people have played looser with pricing (and giving away equipment) has played a large part in making the market as messed up as it is right now...

my 2c

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

it also has a lot to do with the population.
 
 We have a LOT of high levels, some mids, and the occassion new player/character...
 
 Who needs these Emeralds, the people who haven't had 2+ years to get them...
 
 And how many are out there?  Yeah...
 
 Supply and demand.  How high is demand vs Supply?  Demand Low/mid level...  supply high...  Economics, people...  =\

[Guardian 452]

To Rollins..

Didnt realise you were just giving us a definition and I am sorry for any acusations I may have sent back your way from my own missunderstand of your post.



I had a rather long winded response about we the players stepping up and controlling this worlds economy rather than having steps taken for it to be controlled for us..... but I deleted it.

I just want to have fun here.. and I am going to do just that untill the day comes that in my eyes I can't any longer.

Untill then.... GAME ON!

G-452

[Guardian 452]

Supply high, demand low. price goes down I agree 100% this is how it goes in the real world.
What happens when the supply and demand is out of wack on say Oil / Gasoline? OPEC cuts back production and the price goes back up.

Simple Economics right?

How can we apply such a way to controll the economy to this world though?

If we cannot then things never get fixed.. it just gets cheaper and cheaper.... like I said... I shouldnt complain. My alts will be tricked out in +3 gear for next to nothing at that rate!!!

Will I risk my  loosing my characters to perma death who I have spent months, days, years making on going to get a CNR substance that is then worthless?
Hmm.. tough choice... NOPE!!!!

Maybe that will be the deciding factor... when enough people stop risking their lives for something no one wants, that oughta bring the price up.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Consider I got 4 Emerald dusts for a box of Eggs...  I say we're almost there, G

[jrizz]

Back when emeralds could come from mystery minerals the emeralds would go for 150k to 300k. But sure maybe 100k is steep for now. So lets find a pricing that still keeps the system healthy.

Acacea has a very very good point in that if there was something higher it would change things greatly.

As another suggestion (not an alt to Acacea's) maybe we should shut off all drops and high level CNR for a few months to "clean" out the system

[Hellblazer]

What yo're asking is about the same thing as doing a player whipe. Not sure it's a good thing.

[jrizz]

It is nothing like a player wipe. Shutting off drops and CNR for a while would just force us to open our chests and sell off all the stuff we have stored away since the demand would really heat up after a bit of time.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I actually like that idea...  Just because...

[orth]

I think it is really disingenuous to only portray the act of seeking the high end CNR to be rewarding in terms of the final haul of raw goods.  Yes it's a long path, but it provides for a journey where both a lot of rp occurs and a lot of experience points are attained for the 20ish level characters.

Real world economics get thrown out the door when you have a dying population and indestructible gear.

I think the question that needs to be asked:

Just who the heck is losing out here?

Are there players who are unable to afford certain gear to best equip themselves due to their dangerous adventures barely paying off with resale value being so low?

[Hellblazer]

and indestructible gear.

What I've been saying for a while.

[Pibemanden]

If you make gear destructible you should also make -all- gear/gear upgrades craftable, which I believe is impossible right now...

If the gear isn't craftable we would see a ridiculous benefit in drop fishing which is basicly greenstone mystery minerals turning into emeralds. Right now there are actually some drops that already work that way, but usually because of their rarity they are given to someone who use the item themselves.

But since the breakable item-code itself has been turned down for implementation, I wont believe that items will be made breakable in nwn. However if there will be a system with items that breaks later please make it so that getting the item in the first place is a matter of skill/time invested(ie. everything being craftable/100% drop from certain badie) and not some random slot machine.

[Shiokara]

Supply high, demand low. price goes down I agree 100% this is how it goes in the real world.
What happens when the supply and demand is out of wack on say Oil / Gasoline? OPEC cuts back production and the price goes back up.

Simple Economics right?

How can we apply such a way to controll the economy to this world though?

You have stated the player-based solution yourself. Cut back on emerald production and you'll regulate the prices. The problem is you'll have to cut back a lot more and for longer since equipment doesn't just disappear. You'd effectively be waiting for more players to need the gear, which the players that already have won't give up because there's nothing better.

Essentially this would look like the Angels, the Orc Bashers, and other notable crafters to cease getting emeralds for a while. Similarly, the members of such groups, and their friends (which accounts for most of the epic/veteran player base), could agree not to help anyone get emeralds.

The funny thing here is that we don't actually know if any emeralds sold for 20k since both people approached about it refused the sale. Thus, it could just be a player who says he got emeralds for 20k in order to try and drive the priced of emeralds down. All this furor would be over nothing, then--a hypothetical situation at best.

It seems there is some hype about a market crash that will not actually take place as though this thread were "Emerald facts" and not "Emerald Rumours".

[Hellblazer]

Someone has openly proposed to sell them for 22 k. Just look at the market hall. And this thread was not to open debate on pricing, but to let the community know about lies being spread around on my account.

[Chazzler]

And still there has been no one coming forth saying I myself or any of Hellblazer's characters have sold them emeralds for 20k.
And if there would be, I would like logfiles to prove it, as this kind of lying for just pitiful reasons borders on the lines of griefing. The person who has spread these rumors is likely simply annoyed because I could not stand the person in RL and blocked him on MSN.
And it seems he has not got enough guts to come forward either.
End of rant.

[Dorganath]

[INDENT] We're not making equipment destructible at this point in the game.  It's on deck for the MMO, as I've stated at least once, if not more, but it is not going to happen in NWN. As has been pointed out, destructible items require an associated support infrastructure (i.e. repair kits, etc.), which involves systems and palette space we don't have.  Without such things, our only option is that when something breaks, you need a new one, and that is just a punch in the gut for a casual gamer who might have scrimped and saved for the gear he/she has.

So you can either lament or celebrate the fact that the items we have and will continue to have (except for "charged" items) will remain unbroken despite whatever day-to-day abuse we put them through.
[/INDENT]

[orth]

And still there has been no one coming forth saying I myself or any of Hellblazer's characters have sold them emeralds for 20k.
And if there would be, I would like logfiles to prove it, as this kind of lying for just pitiful reasons borders on the lines of griefing. The person who has spread these rumors is likely simply annoyed because I could not stand the person in RL and blocked him on MSN.
And it seems he has not got enough guts to come forward either.
End of rant.

While I can lament with your situation you're guilty of now spreading rumour and speculation with such statements.

By broadcasting your dismissal of the rumour through this thread you've done all that you need to do to the people that should matter to you.  They can read it here and dismiss it.

If you must know who started it, follow the trail of who you heard it  from, when someone tells you they forget who they heard it from or won't  tell you who they heard it from then maybe re-evaluate your association  with that person.

[Dorganath]

Back when emeralds could come from mystery minerals the emeralds would go for 150k to 300k. But sure maybe 100k is steep for now. So lets find a pricing that still keeps the system healthy.

The first auction for such an emerald fetched a price of 100K, having started lower than that.  Not long after, 100K became the starting price.  Before that, no one would generally even sell emeralds because if they could get them, they kept them.

There was also a player who figured out a way to duplicate items using an exploit (since fixed), who happened to find such a mystery mineral emerald and kept trickling them out to the market every week or so.

The mystery mineral system was fixed not long after that to prevent high-order CNR from dropping out of low-order deposits, and the player in question was banned permanently for this and other less savory infractions, but the pricing stuck as the "standard".

Now here we are several years later, still clinging to the pricing started by a fluke and an exploiter.

So what's the right price?  I don't know, but the market should decide this.  In the current state of things, 100K and above is too steep, and in my opinion, it just encourages the grind for gold and drops to pay for such things. Is 20K then too low?  I don't know...is it? If most of an emerald's perceived value is in the time and risk it takes to get there, and if the person getting them doesn't particularly mind either, then I suppose those things don't factor into their pricing.  Or maybe a trip to get them got lucky and pulled a higher-than-average number of stones from the deposits.  Who knows?  Probably somewhere between 20K and 100K is most appropriate, but I don't particularly see the need for a globally "set" price for the raw materials.

Finished goods are another matter.  They do have a mechanical value that's tied to the item level requirements. These goods should sell for the lens value in all but a few exceptional cases (i.e. things like Strength tomes that come from the epic drops and have a very low computed value but a very high mechanical value).  Some of these items are made from emeralds, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the base raw materials are priced super high, so too will the finished goods be priced, and that starts to push things out of the reach of those people who can use them and will benefit from them, namely characters who are level 17 and up.  Again, price inflation just encourages (and even necessitates) the grind, and not everyone can or wants to grind.

As another suggestion (not an alt to Acacea's) maybe we should shut off all drops and high level CNR for a few months to "clean" out the system

I'm not sure how that would "clean" anything out.  It would make the CNR that exists now skyrocket in value and any other drops would remain in the hands of those who already have them. *points up to the non-breakable items chatter*  If you mean then those who have such things could sell them, then we just have an economic environment where goods are at a premium because of an artificial rarity and prices will go up.

As orth pointed out though, there's very little "real" economic forces at work.  In a normal economy, there would be something keeping prices down as well as up, and there would be normal and perhaps periodic fluctuations.  We haven't had that because of the fact that there is a virtually endless supply of gold and drop items with almost no sinks into which they disappear.  The best we have right now is donations and housing remodels.

[Chongo]

I remember when emeralds had enough value that I could trade them for hugs.

[Kenderfriend]

I remember when emeralds had enough value that I could trade them for hugs.

You dont need an emerald, just ask... Keppli will give you a hug for free