Goodnight, Tonight...Goodbye

[darkwulf365]

Normally, it is considered quite tactful, and in most cases respectful to post something like this in a private forum first before making it public.

At this time however, I feel that I need no such restraint and have no desire to show such propriety.  

This can be considered my resignation as a DM, community member, player and contributor to Layonara.  All those who have requested me to act in a DM capacity for a CDQ, or WLDQ must find another DM.  All other projects, will stay on my hard drive and an alternate version should be used if any are even desired at this point.
 
I ask at this time that all contributions I have made to this point, up to and including all writings and stories I have composted related to and resulting from DM quests, Character Development Threads concerning the following:

• Branderback
• Miko Millspaugh
• Xeen
• The Vine
• Ranalea
• Boo
• Prantz
• The Administration
• Broegar
• Caliessa
• Odlithaner (a.k.a. The Mouth of Broegar)
• Oom Kaayrk
• Dregar
• Orc’s Watch
• Fort Rael
• The beginnings of Prantz
• Sunset’s Dawn

be withdrawn from the handbook before it’s publication and not be used in any current or future works published by Layonara Studios or any of it's affiliates.  They are not part of the Layonara Intellectual Property, nor do I wish them to be any longer.

I myself heartily disagree with this migration/subscription, and I do not want a part of it.  I was not asked, nor approached in any way shape or form by any member of the staff regarding this project until I found out about it during a forum crawl on June the 3rd. I was told that I had to give written consent to use my writings as per the copyright notice for Layonara Intellectual Property found in several places throughout the various staff forums.  I did not respond to that post, although my silence was taken as consent, which at the time I was fine with.  Recently, I have been sent a release form to be filled out, signed, and then sent back to the Layonara offices, I have not, and will not do so.  I find it reprehensible and underhanded that I was not told that what I write may or may not be used in a proprietary endevour started in secret by select members of the Layonara team.
 
Yes, the possibility existed for me to have gotten paid for this, that does not placate me, nor should it make it morally right. I did not become a DM, or a writer for the possibility of royalties, fame (infamy), or to have my name on a cover.  I did this for fun, to share, to meet new people.  The prosepect of money and paying customers changes all of this, and makes it unpure to me and I no longer wish to participate.

But why did I give my initial (albeit silent) consent?  I did this thinking that I was writing for this incarnation (meaning, the free to play one) of Layonara, and for the next edition handbook which I did know was going to be published, and for which I would receive royalties for.  I didn’t really like the idea of monetary compensation, but I rationalized that it’s for a book that nearly everybody will, in some way shape or form (My DM quests, random RP with either my PC’s or NPC’s, etc) be able to benefit from.  I planned on framing my first royalty check, and then donating the remaining ones to the server.  Now however, being the person that I am, I heartily dislike being deceived and having the true purposes of my labors unknown to me..  I refuse to be anybody’s mushroom (second definition), I deserve better treatment then this, not as a DM, or community member, or contributor, but as a human being, and therefore, I desire no further part in this moronic mess.

I have watched this community go into a slow decay, longtime players and friends have been leaving at a consistent rate.  Veteran players are constantly overshadowed and left wanting in favor of those who go against what I thought the spirit of this server was (You all know who they are).  My online experience has slowly degraded until it has been a chore to log on as either a player or DM. I’ve watched the player base go from a small close knit group of friends and cliques into a huge group of quest whoring, XP hungry, selfish, inconsiderate, unruly, disrespectful people.  I’ve seen DM’s become scared to run events the way they wish because of the whiny poor attitudes of players.  What was deemed as an RP-Action server, has basically lost the RP and is now left with –Action.  That’s minus Action, like minus world from Super Mario Brothers.

Although this migration may be deemed as necessary, and I can even barely see where it is desirable, I do not see where it will improve the “quality of life” for those participating in the server.  The problems in the community cannot be fixed by a magic wand of a new system design.  My experiences in mechanical engineering, systems design, programming, and game development, a system (or machine) designed to accommodate everyone cannot, by nature of it’s shear breadth and scope, excel in every area if it even manages to excel in any one area at all.  It is the nature of the people that made this community great, and they are now in a small minority, to cater to them cuts off the larger portion of the players (customers, whatever).  To acquiesce to the majority alienates the minority.  To add compromises sullies your original purpose, to force the majority to act like the minority by rewarding the minority for doing what you perceive is “right”, will be deemed as “unfair”.  All of these things will only narrow the small niche market for this product further.  This doesn’t begin to address the issue of those great players who cannot afford to pay a reoccurring subscription fee at all or the increased stress of a staff that now has to deal with customers instead of players.

As a last caution as you venture bravely into this new world.  Remember, this not an enterprise, it is not the be all end all of your existence.  You get no rewards at the end of the month (unless you’re one of the select few being paid), and nobody will knock at your door to congratulate you for killing that balor prince in 5 rounds, so please, have fun, it is just a game after all.

[Leanthar]

You are wrong on so many levels but clearly it is not going to help anything by trying to speak to you judging from this post. So I won't waste both of our times.
 
 Take care out there.
 
 One thing we are trying to do here at Layonara is to allow you (the players) to make a difference. To do that though we have to do things in certain ways, following certain rules and laws (which I personally think sucks but you have to play the game). When you get something wrong (and clearly I had it wrong for a while; legally speaking mind you) you have this sort of thing happen. Somebody pulls the rug out from under you when they get angry or feel slighted and you lose huge amounts of continuity with the community and game world. It is this very type of response and thinking and harming of communities and writings that has caused game companies (large and small) (and other publishers etc.) to not attempt what we are trying to do and why they will not try to do what we are trying to do. The game industry (and indeed gaming in general) will not grow to the next level that it can be until this sort of involving a community of players and allowing them to change the world around them is resolved. We don't have it right here, but we sure are trying and I think we are getting closer to getting it right. Trial and error is all I have to go on as it has never been tried before in gaming history. We do our best as we try to get things right.
 
 Because this sort of thing does nothing but harm the players and the community and others that may try to allow players to make a difference in a game world. He has every right to do it and such is life. Now we adjust. Makes one really step back and wonder why we create a world that will allow players to make a difference though when this sort of thing happens. We could be just like all of the other companies out there and have our lore and history and everybody would have to play in the same stale thing/world that never changes and never grows and never adjusts to players, but that is not what I want to do for the community. Now I wonder why though that is for sure.

[Pseudonym]

.... have fun, it is just a game after all.

100%.

All the best for the future Darkwulf.

[hawklen]

and nobody will knock at your door to congratulate you for killing that balor prince in 5 rounds, so please, have fun, it is just a game after all.

Its more like 20 rounds, but thanks for noticing Darkwulf!

And as pseudonym said, 100% and g/l lad

[Chongo]

I love NWN.  I'll continue to love it for some time to come and I lament every thought of it one day passing.
 
 But one thing I will say, is that I won't be asking for the withdrawing of everything with cho_xxx_xxxx in the current module.  I did everything I've done to this point for our community, and it's been a heck of a lot (not as much as some of the old hands, but a heck of a lot).  
 
 And I don't regret one ounce of it because it was for you guys playing the game, as well as being for me.
 
 Using excuses of 'he or she will own this' or 'it's my work' or whatever I just read spouted just betrays everything in the righteous tone he took.  I'm rather disappointed.  We do what we do for the community and the time we have to spend with our community.  I know that in a years time every area I built for NWN will be gone, but the community will still be here and it'll be better for my efforts.  I'm no golden child, and this is bloody patronizing, but that's what counts to me.  It'll be better for someone continuing to foster and develop all those efforts instead of letting it be an 'every man for himself' development affair.  Rights for what you've done?  Do you think it'd go any further without someone carrying it uphill for you?
 
 But hey, good luck on figuring that one out bud.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Perhaps this is bitter, but thank you, Jonathan, for taking away massive parts of the Layonara I love.

That's real bloody selfish of you.

[miltonyorkcastle]

You're right. It's all about fun. And I'm sorry you stopped having fun.

I realize stuff was done behind the scenes, behind everyone's back. And, honestly, I'm totally fine with it as long as one of two requirements are met: 1) I get something good out of it or 2) I have the option of leaving anytime I wish.

The latter is true here, and possibly both. As such, I'll give whatever new Layo stuff a whirl when it comes around, and if I like it, I'll stick around, and if I don't, I'll go someplace else. Apparently, you'll be going someplace else, heh.

I do have to say, though, as I can't afford (my bank account is seriously in the negative numbers right now) any pay-per-month stuff, if Layo goes to that, I'll be out. But if it's a one time purchase, that's totally cool. If it's free, even better.

[Dorax Windsmith]

We'll miss Daren, Jaren (I don't think any of my characters actually met Brembelmaer) and your contributions...sorry that you feel slighted and I'm even sorrier that you've decided to take some of Layonara with you.  I hope you do find what you're looking for and thank you for what you did do while you were here and that will be missed.

[twidget658]

Perhaps this is bitter, but thank you, Jonathan, for taking away massive parts of the Layonara I love.
 
 That's real bloody selfish of you.

 
 Umm, the last I checked, bashing on someone and trying to put them on a guilt trip never really helped anything except burn the bridge faster. Most people do it to suck up publically and to gain favor or to look better. In reality, it doesn't make you look any better because now no one will be able to trust you. Let the guy do what he feels is right. Let him rely on his own morals and values. Don't fault him for it.
 
 If you know someone on a first name basis and probably consider him a friend, why in the world would you turn on him so quickly instead of talking to him and finding what out what is going on and trying to rectify it?
 
 Stephen_Zuckerman, you will find out that you can't speak out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be two-faced and have people trust you. It sounds like, "You are my friend until the popular opinion is against you, then I am no longer your friend."
 
 Leave the bashing and guilt trips out of it and let the people involved work behind the scenes to discuss this and make an educated decision. A day or two and the first emotions will subside and reasoning will return. Bashing someone publically will only make them resent and not want to agree to anything.

[Rowana]

Darkwulf is entitled to his opinion, and last I checked he was allowed to speak them. If this turns into a flame fest it will be locked. Let's keep it civil folks.
~row

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Edit: Quite a few things in this are... Of questionable objectivity, to say the least. Each of these statements is my own personal opinion. Really, the last sentence in the post is the one that matters most.

--

Several things, Twidget.

Firstly, my only relations with Geryon in the past have been professional, regarding my character and quests. I have never considered him a "friend," especially considering his conduct towards those that I do consider friends. I used his first name because I figured that if he read it, it would cut deeper. As I felt it should.

I am not two-faced, but rather very straightforward. Allow me to further demonstrate this as I explain my feelings on the mess here in more detail.

It is petty to penalize the players of Layonara for a decision he disagrees with, even as vehemently as this. While I understand his frustration, (and do agree that the whole situation could've been handled better on the other side as well) his own decision has made it ABUNDANTLY clear that he cares far more for his own vindication than for the players he designed that content for.

I don't give a  flip what Leanthar thinks of my response to this, apart from him not being angry enough at me for something to ban me. Nor the rest of the team. Heck, quite a few of my own friends disagree with me, but really, now.

"I don't like the game anymore, so I'm taking back my ball," is petty and fruitless.

A similar situation was pointed out to me - the recent teacher strikes in Ontario. While their concerns may be all well and valid, it's not the administration that suffers for it so much as the students.

I come to Layonara to play the game. I've invested two years of my life into playing the game, and the Roleplay that "playing the game" means to me. A huge portion of a character I've put that much of my life into is now ripped away by the selfish decision that a DM who's been proven to not have the requisite maturity for his position in the past has made... And I'm only one player.

Think about what the removal of all of those things will mean. I'll be the first to herald how bloody good a writer Geryon was - he, along with Honora, made Prantz what it is. Then Branderback, Xeen... The Vine. A whole, massive host of other things that have become integral to the lives of at the very least scores of player-characters, if not into the hundreds.


This whole bloody mess is a raw deal, on all sides of the board.

[Polak76]

I think Darkwulf's points are quite valid and his opinion has been expressed quite emotionally.  Until now I didn't realise he spent so much time developing aspects as he depicted in his posts and I'm now sorry to see him go.

Best of luck out there Darkwulf and happy endeavours for the future!
Polak76

[Eight-Bit]

Layonara was a lot better in Beta 4. It used to be about a cool story, people getting involved, and just roleplaying about nothing in particular. It was the people and not Leanthar who caused the change for the worst.

Dan, I respect what you do. It's not a matter of do I agree or disagree with how you run things. It is, however, how people have changed. I remember when levels didn't matter, and rules were general understandings and didn't need to be set in stone.

If I were breaking up with Layonara, I'd say "Baby, it's not you, it's me."

A lot of people agree with me and are phasing out or just leaving. My best advice, (not that it has a lot of weight, but hey), is that you focus on what Layonara used to be and add meaning to the phrase "spirit of the server" so that it means something and isn't a ridiculous joke.

The new front page looks cool, by the way.

[twidget658]

Firstly, my only relations with Geryon in the past have been professional, regarding my character and quests. I have never considered him a "friend," especially considering his conduct towards those that I do consider friends. I used his first name because I figured that if he read it, it would cut deeper. As I felt it should.

 
 You have no right to use his first name in this regard. It is a sign of disrespect to use person's first name when you do not know them "personally". Using a person's first name in this situation can be construed as a personal attack.
 
 

It is petty to penalize the players of Layonara for a decision he disagrees with, even as vehemently as this. While I understand his frustration, (and do agree that the whole situation could've been handled better on the other side as well) his own decision has made it ABUNDANTLY clear that he cares far more for his own vindication than for the players he designed that content for.
 
 "I don't like the game anymore, so I'm taking back my ball," is petty and fruitless.

 
 Are you trying to tell me that it is petty to stick up for what you think is right? To me, it takes courage. We could go into world events, but I won't. But, people though out history has died for fighting for what they think is right.
 
 There is a difference in 'not getting what you want' and things going against your morales and values. Usually, 'taking your ball home' is because you don't get your way. This is not the case.
 
 

I come to Layonara to play the game. I've invested two years of my life into playing the game, and the Roleplay that "playing the game" means to me. A huge portion of a character I've put that much of my life into is now ripped away by the selfish decision that a DM who's been proven to not have the requisite maturity for his position in the past has made... And I'm only one player.

 
 Dude, it is a game. When you are talking about RL money and business decisions...your 'character' is in a GAME.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Please lock the thread. What's needed to be said has already been said. The rest can be taken to PM's.

[jrizz]

dont do it

[stormspirit]

The fact of the matter is its his ball to take, rarely do people leave the ball behind when the game is over.  Clearly he feels that in addition to this his buddy was charging gate fee's and not telling him about it till very late in the game.

His work is his intellectual property, it was written by him and laboured on by him.  Yes others became involved however like characters in a book, they do not take on possession of the lore created.

He has made his stand, agree or disagree with it it is his stand and that in itself is something that perhaps deserves respect and not active insults.

I think it unfair to construct a villian when really he is only standing up for his personal integrity as he views it.  Not everyone has to agree with that view, but to condemn it is perhaps a very narrow focus indeed.  

Good Luck Darkwulf with whatever you plan for the future.

[Rhizome]

Darkwulf,

It's been quite some time since we've interacted with each other, I know.  Everything I remember about those encounters reminds me of the sort of thoughtful, passionate and respectful person you are.  Perhaps it's because of that, at least in part, that reading your overwhelmingly negative words was unsettling for me.  I hate the idea that you seem to feel exploited or mistreated in some fashion.  I don't know if you are still present to read this response, or if it will matter anyway, but I do feel strongly that many, if not all, of the points you raise in your post demand careful reflection and evaluation.  So, that's what I'll try to do here.

It seems that part of your negative reception of the news about Layonara's future is based in the fact that you only found out about it on June 3rd.  As orth has stated in another thread, that time-line is really not as unreasonable as it might seem.  Only very recently were certain decisions made which greatly accelerated the development of the new Layonara.  Prior to that, the project was really just a bunch of ideas, good ideas I believe, which were not appropriate to disclose.  I didn't even start telling friends and family members about this project until very recently.  I feared things were so nebulous and uncertain as to raise questions and concerns about how I've been spending enormous amounts of my valuable time rather than genuine interest and support in a compelling and practical project.  Similar sentiments led us to hold back our urges to speak about this project with other members of the Layonara community until we felt we were on a viable trajectory towards independently developing a new game world.  We expected to have a product in development years from now and that some interim version of the current Layonara would continue well into the future.  As I said, it was only very recently that that time-line changed.

With the above points in mind, I hope you can see that you were not dealt with in an underhanded fashion.  Everything you contributed to Layonara, from your characters to your GM-ing to your writing has been greatly appreciated and intended to directly benefit the current community and version of Layonara.  You were not snookered into contributing towards a proprietary endeavor by that fact being willfully withheld from you.  Instead you've volunteered to contribute to game world and a community in a way that has generated joyful and challenging events and materials for a great many people.  Your work still does that.  The memories of your contributions will do that well into the future.

It does seem to me that you are conflating two issues which should be considered separately.  As you stated, you assented to the notion of writing for profit for Layonara.  Your contributions to the handbook, particularly after you were informed that the handbook and other written materials would be made available for purchase, were intended for sale to the current Layonara community or to an interested public.  They were not conceptualized as contributing to the new and potentially for profit version of Layonara.  The fact that the game itself will morph into something better doesn't change the fact that you wrote for the handbook, not for game engine itself.

I'm of the opinion that individuals and collectives should always strive to improve themselves.  Layonara has been a wonderful example of this for years.  Descriptions I could offer of what this place was like when I first started over three and a half years ago would seem implausible at this point I imagine.  We've gone through 3 versions and many other significant updates.  We've implemented new and independently generated elements to our world.  Many people have put in enormous effort to enable Layonara to evolve over the years.  In the process we've learned alot about how to make and run a game world.  Now that we are faced with some pretty darned obvious limitations of the NWN game engine, it only makes sense that we should attempt to move beyond those limitations.  NWN is a device not of our own making, and thus cannot do many of the things we want it to do.  So, we'll attempt to empower ourselves by creating our own tools and put them into action.  I believe that the fact that we have developed the skills, cultivated the vision and nurtured the drive to accomplish this should be something to celebrate rather than condemn.

Another point which seems to have gone missing in this discussion is that Layonara has never been a free server.  Sure, it may be free to you and others.  But it hasn't been free for primarily Leanthar, but also OneST8 and Thak, who have shared the burden of costly fees for the many servers it takes to effectively run this world and community.  Keep in mind that three are new and many others have been upgraded numerous times.  I know you and others don't intend this, but please understand that when you are saying that Layonara should remain a free-play server you are actually arguing that Leanthar, OneST8 and Thak should continue to foot the bill for everyone.  That doesn't seem just to me.  This is another, admittedly secondary, reason why Layonara must leave NWN behind.  We're not after 6 million subscribers, mansions and yachts here.  We're not out to deal-double with people in search of wealth and fame.  We're simply attempting to find a way to keep Layonara alive, evolving, fruitful and at the same time self-sustaining.

I'm truly sorry that you feel affronted, mistreated and exploited Darkwulf.  It has never been anyone's intention to do such things and to make you feel that way.  I hope, with admittedly shaky confidence, that something I've said has assuaged your negative sentiment and allowed you to reach a better understanding of how this situation has unfolded.  Please feel free to contact me at any point to discuss any of these issues further.

Respect,

Rhizome

[Lord of the Forest]

Well,

personally I hate to see you go, darkwulf. I had a lot of fun with your chars in the past, my very first days here as well. However, if you want to leave or not is your decision and I will respect it.

As I don't want to be a troll nor do I want to feed trolls I will simply wish you best of luck out there and that I will always remember the good times we had in the past.

I wish you well, darkwulf.

Regards, Inny