Black Guard?

[typically_annoying]

Is the Blackgaurd PRC allowed?  I can't see it listed under the allowed PrC's, so I am assuming it's not.  There is however Unholy Champion of Corath and Pyrtechron (sp?).  But, in the handbook there is an entry for the Unholy Champion about there only ever being 1 at any one time.  Does this mean there is a distinction between 'The Unholy Champion of Corath' and the PrC unholy champion.

[lonnarin]

All the Unholy Champions are Chaotic Evil, which is a denied (not restricted) alignment, so I wouldn't hold my breath about those ones.  As for standard Blackguard, I believe in this setting they have been replaced by the unholy champions directly under their god.  So far as far as I know, only 2 characters are evil, one Neutral Evil and the other Lawful Evil.

So unless Leanthar comes up with a Blackguard Variant for LE Sulterio, I'd gander that the answer is no.  All Champions are the alignment of their god, and most evil gods are CE.

[feniox]

No, they are very restricted, I had an arguement with Orth on the same subject over a year ago when I was new here, although in hindsight, I do agree that it is probably better for them to be a disallowed class in layo, no matter how much I would have loved to have been one

[typically_annoying]

Blackguard does show in the class selection when levelling (perhaps it cant be disabled), it is listed as any Evil, so apart from the GM's not approving it I can't see any reason for it not to be allowed.  It certainly isn't an uber-class and not like the PnP version, but it does hold lots of RP value.  And why not?  Good have their Paladins, so why shouldn't evil have their Blackguards.

Unholy Champs show up the same as Blackguards (any evil).  But, I do agree that if you read the description in the handbook, then these should be restricted.  After all, you can't have a PC talking directly to a deity.  Although I wouldn't mind  This is why I was wondering whether ther Unholy Champ in the handbook is a single entity with a title and is separate to the class, otherwise I don't understand why the class was even created.

Anyway, thanks for the info guys.

[Talan Va'lash]

typically_annoying - 3/16/2006  9:43 AM

otherwise I don't understand why the class was even created.

I think (if I can remember so long ago hehe) that originally champions just had to be one step away (like clerics.)  So Unholy champions were playable at NE.  Then it was made stricter for champions so that they had to be the exact alignment, which makes a lot of sense, but it rendered the unholy champions unplayable.

Also, the class wasn't "created" per se, it was just renamed.  So, its not like a ton of work was put in for no purpose.

I think LE and CG should have their champions too, as the clash between LG and CE is a tad bit overdone in my opinion.  Lets have a clash between LG and CG!  or... between LE and CG *coughs* starwars */cough*

[Ne'er]

Yeah, the Blackguard class was really just changed into Unholy Champion of Corath. Baalor (my DM avatar) is a Blackguard in my local vault, but when he is loaded into Layo, he becomes an Unholy Champ.

Also, I agree that champions should have to be their alignment, but other alignments should have champions too. At least LE and LN should, since groups with a power base of that alignment are usually very structured.

[Gulnyr]

Ne'er - 3/16/2006  4:12 PM

but other alignments should have champions too.

Shouldn't this depend on the god?  Some gods just don't seem like they would provoke the kind of fanaticism that seems necessary for Champions, regardless of their alignment.

[Ne'er]

True, althouh Rofirien seems like they would have a champion, as a sort of elite battle priest. That's what I was thinking of for LN. As for LE, well, there aren't many LE gods out there, except for Sulterio. So LE as a champion probably won't happen, especially since I don't think we have many followers for Sulterio.

[Gulnyr]

Let me throw a different spin on this.  What is the purpose of being a Champion?  Is it to get goodies from a PrC, or is it for advancing the RP of the character?  

Jennara is a Rofirinite, and she's a Knight of the Wyrm.  She doesn't have a class called "Champion of Rofirein", but in a sense, she is a Champion of Rofirein.  

I understand that getting goodies from a class is fun, but I'd rather not see a dozen cookie-cutter Champion PrCs.  It adds a lot more diversity and character to the world to have organizations that give ranks or titles, which could include "Champion", in my opinion.  Goodies can arise from these organizations, too.  There happens to be an organization with some pretty cool rank insignia.

Look through the handbook.  If you don't see what you're looking for, or you see a hole where you could add something, make a suggestion.  Flesh it out some.  You don't have to do everything, because there is a whole team of people who can help.  The Pranzis Army Officers' Corps was suggested by a guy who played here only a couple of months.  He was looking for a military organization for his character, so he made the suggestion.  He disappeared before it was completed, unfortunately, but the world is deeper for his effort.

[Talan Va'lash]

Ne'er - 3/16/2006  2:52 PM

True, althouh Rofirien seems like they would have a champion, as a sort of elite battle priest. That's what I was thinking of for LN. As for LE, well, there aren't many LE gods out there, except for Sulterio. So LE as a champion probably won't happen, especially since I don't think we have many followers for Sulterio.

Hehe, yeah, layo don't have any good LE gods, well, non-strongly-race-specific ones.  Need an LE god of organized crime.

Mobster: *points gun* "I nevah shoot a man in th' back." *pauses* "Turn around."

[Ne'er]

Talan Va'lash - 3/16/2006  9:38 PM

Hehe, yeah, layo don't have any good LE gods, well, non-strongly-race-specific ones.  Need an LE god of organized crime.

Mobster: *points gun* "I nevah shoot a man in th' back." *pauses* "Turn around."

I was thinking more along the lines of a diety similar to Bane. Big, evil, powerful, and controlling. Mobster works too though.

[steverimmer]

Heh no you need a god who belives that he is good, holy and stands for everything that is rightous and lawful.  However....he is in reality a fanatic, a sort of 'Super Toran' who will stop at nothing to enforce his version of what is good so in effect becoming LE by his actions and from what he demands his followers to do.  

It actually could be interesting if even his followers didn't realise that they were of evil alignment

[lonnarin]

Evil rarely considers itself to be evil.  For the most part we are born from the womb screaming, naked and neutral to explore in the crazy game of life, then something happens that you're not proud of doing... so you justify it.  You bend and warp the validity of the action in your mind to match your own personal schema which deviates from standard norms of society.  As you compromise yourself in such a manner you slip slowly and surely into the darkside.  As a frog on the hotplate, you don't really even notice the transition, but come out of the whole process still thinking you're the same person you've always been... it's just the WORLD that's changed.

Good examples of such are Anakin in Episode III.  Evil happened in his past which caused him incredible pain, particularly the murder of his mother by the sand people and abandonment fears of his wife Padme with child.  He starts off as this cute little friendly boy, but grows up far away from his mother, leaving her in slavery.  This eats at him throughout all his childhood until as a young adult he finally finds her again but is too late to save her life.  He blames himself for all of this, and feels compelled to build a "safer world" for Padme and his children... hence the 1st step towards evil.  After this, he starts growing more and more intolerant of elements that in his mind destabilize the Republic and seeks to help form a stronger, stricter ruling system for "all of humanity".  This ad hoc assumption that what is good your you has to be good for everyone else is another key element of evil... intolerance of others to even have a seperate moral view than yours.  Such qualities can easily be found in our clerics and paladins of goodly gods, as well as misguided followers of evil ones who believe their false god can bring them a better world.

As for those folk who don't really have a reason to be evil perse, but simply begin as an evil character who runs around killing people, they are not evil.  They are criminally insane, and while dangerous, are moreso in a fit of chaotic neutrality hand in hand with madness that allows such actions to be performed without purpose of provocation.  Such people are put down by blackguards just as often as they are by law enforcement like any unthinking animal.  If somebody started stomping on babies in the nursery section of the Death Star and Vader witnessed this, it is not likely he'd be very happy, having had lost children himself and having lost a mother.  Most likely he would flip out and kill that person as he was mass murdering in order to save his worldview of the Empire.  If however you break any number of meaningless and restrictive laws of the Empire and he catches you, he'd likely choke you to death with his mind.  Evil does not typically perform evil as it's only means and end.  Evil is a means to an end which the performer is willing to do ANYTHING for in order to bring it about.

Typical Goals for Evil Alignments
----------------------------------
LE- National Security, Law & Order, Justice, Unity
NE- Greed, Survival, Safety
CE- Freedom, Vengeance, Lust/Love, Greed, Affirmation of Power

Power itself is a constant desire among all 3 alignments as it enables the aquisition of all other goals.  There are plenty more goals for any of the above to have, these are simply the most steroeotypical.

[Faldred]

I think you've nailed it... too many times in fantasy settings, we think of good and evil as black-and-white stereotypes.  In essense, however, an "evil" person isn't the rampaging psycotic, but the person for whom the consequences of his actions are irrelevant compared to his goals.  "The end justifies the means", as is so often said.

Personal power is but one of the possible motivators, though probably the most common.  The evil person may delude others -- and even himself -- that the objectives are for the common good.  He may see himself as a patriot, or a defender, or a rebel against an unjust (LE) or oppressive (CE) society.  

The common thread is the lack of conscience over the result of their actions.  If a group of innocents have to suffer pain, enslavement, or death for the "cause", well, then it was a price worth paying.  After all, isn't the end objective noble?

I'd say that CE is really, really rare in real life.  LE and NE are much more common.  (I'd say, in general, that the average person tends to be lawful-to-neutral and good-to-neutral -- and that evil is more common that chaotic.)  People who are willing to use others for their own ends, but who want to be able to wield that power effectively, at least need to be able to pay lip-service to a system of laws in order to exercise that power effectively.  Most infamous dictators and tyrants would be LE, with some NE.

To a certain degree, I can see LN or LE paladins, in the sense that they would adhere to a strict code of behavior.  An LE paladin would be a little difficult in that their "code" might run into conflict with their own desires, but still possible.  It would make more sense for a "paladin" to be LE than CG, for example, because the "code" is really what defines a paladin.