Group Tactics//Curtesy

[Krell Himmler]

Now I wanted to do this for awhile because I noticed some people really really don't seem to understand or know it....

I understand for some the RP is to charge in and attack but in the instance your character is intelligent and such forth a few pointers I find which helps the group.

1. Unless there is a spellcaster in the enemy group whom you can/should neutralise or some special issue needing your rushing forwards, wait for the enemy to come to you. This is for a few reasons, first and foremost by waiting for them, you stop the party mage/cleric from getting attacked and yourself from getting surrounded. Also by keeping a distinct line/arrangement the friendly party mage is able to fire spells into their back ranks and is also able to protect you better.

2. When the party mage/cleric/caster asks you to stop and wait for rest in a safe location, do so, at least try to get some semblence of intelligence and wait, too many parties die because the fighters want to push on, your abilities as a rogue/barbarian/fighter may not be tied to rest, but the other party members abilities often are. In this case I'll call it maintaining your supply train .

3. Keep a solid group formation and try and stick to it, mainly do this to keep the cleric/mage/cast alive. Use ranged weapons as the enemy closes if you have them, but as above, wait for them, don't charge in, that's a quick way to get surrounded and die.

4. If you assign someone to extra duties then please wait for them to finish, don't ask them to loot and then run off screaming the warcry "xp". The cleric/mage you're leaving behind may very well save your life, in fact they almost assuredly will!

There was a few more, but I'll add them as I remember.

It may seem like a rant but use a little common sense, there is no point in a party member dying because someone was impatient or didn't want to work together. There may be more so if others think of them, add it to the list as I think this will help all groups better work together.

[aragwen]

Off course all above still has to roleplayed.
 
 So if you a dwarven battlerager I bet you he would not and should not IC follow these suggestions.
 
 I think many times people forget that you roleplaying a character and what you as player know and want to do is not what your character would or should do.
 
 Also sometimes people suggest resting every 10 minutes which really dont make IC sense either. Casters should learn to use their spells and abilities within reason. Just you can rest every 10 minutes does not mean it makes sense IC.

[LordCove]

Totally agree with number 4. If it happens... remind the people charging ahead that unless they wait for you/the looter... they aint getting paid.

In regards to number 2. Providing the Mage doesn't throw a Weird into the fray on every encounter, and once he's ran out of weirds suddenly request a rest, that makes sense. Just because a mage cant throw a weird or AOE into the fray, doesnt mean that the six fighters behind him are all going to die.

Nor once the mage has run out of spells... that the rest of the party is going to be "doomed"

They might... but might not

[Lord of the Forest]

In regards to number 2. Providing the Mage doesn't throw a Weird into the fray on every encounter, and once he's ran out of weirds suddenly request a rest, that makes sense. Just because a mage cant throw a weird or AOE into the fray, doesnt mean that the six fighters behind him are all going to die.

Agreed, while these spells are kinda neat it is really boring for the fighters though. As long as the fighters are warded everything's fine. Ask LordCove, he knows best. ^^

As aragwen already said, some players have IC reasons not to stick with these tactics even if the agree OOC-ly and even if they don't stick to them all of the time these are still party players and besides it is fun.

As a little sidenote, tactics are very useful and fun and whatever, but only as long as it is not about abusing enemy AI. Not saying anyone does but I have seen cases where some came up, justifying abusing AI as it was part of a tactic.

Just my two cents

[Krell Himmler]

My point was always within reason, some mages throw everything they have into fights straight away and overuse magic, but if someone requests a rest they may very well need it, in some parties I had the party cleric claim they needed a rest and everyone went on then got angry for lack of healing, hence why I mention it. I think fighter types arn't too sensitive to the rest needs, I just hoped to let em know .

I actually try, personally as a mage to use a few wards for the party and save all my spells until a time when I *think* they're needed. The only problem this causes is sometimes people seem to think I'm just sponging xp, when I'm really waiting for the right time or the necessary time to strike *shrugs*

[Nehetsrev]

As someone who plays a fighter, I have to say I've got no problem with mages who save their spells for that pitched battle where they'll really make all the difference in whether we (some or all of us) live or die.  In fact, I'd prefer often that spellcasters save their spells like that, even some of the multitude of buff-chains could be reduced in some instances where they're not really needed.  This not only allows my character to be a little more challenged, but also more entertainingly engaged.

While in some places it might be nescessary, in many others it's just plain sad/boring when the spell-caster says, "Wait!  Don't move!  I have to cast every buff spell in my spellbook on you or that badger might nip you, and heaven forbid it might even draw a drop of blood if it does!"  Then twenty minutes later, "There that should do it.  Hey, hey...  HEY!  Wake up!  I'm done casting now."

A couple options mages can go with when they are quietly (or maybe not so quietly) reserving their spells for when they're really needed are these:

1 - Use a bow/crossbow/sling/or other ranged weapon.
2 - Bring and toss healing potions judiciously as needed.
3 - Add to the RP by being more vocal...  if mages are supposed to be brainier, maybe they should be directing/leading the tactics of the group?  If it's not their cup-of-tea they can always:

• make-jokes
• voice criticisms
• share the lore of the area like a tour-guide
• compliment other party members
• brag annyoingly of their ability with the Weave
• ignore the combat going on all around them and get really absorbed in reading the latest Wizarding Research Journal.
• comment on the birdcalls heard ("Hey!  Did I just hear a lark?")
• point out rare or interesting indigenous flora, or fauna
• comment on the alchemical uses of aforementioned flora or fauna
• practice flashy, showy, and otherwise useless magical light-shows
• grumble about how bored they are at the moment
• etc.

[Krell Himmler]

Sometimes if I save them for the big battle or a desperate time I get angry tells claiming I'm just freeloading, so I get a little paranoid

[Erik K]

Sometimes if I save them for the big battle or a desperate time I get angry tells claiming I'm just freeloading, so I get a little paranoid


I agree with Krell, I think that the players that don t use spells, don t realise, how taxing on a spell caster, buffing a party, or healing others can be.  Further, clerics, these days are often called on to front and that takes a lot of spells just to keep ourselves alive.  So, while we can front, heal some and cast those really useful area effect spells, doing so deplets our spells and the more we do, the faster we burn them up and the more we need to rest.  However, if characters would rahter buy lots of ehaling potions and bandages, that would make it all a lot easier.
  Oh and please use soul stones, clerics take a serious XP beating raising people without them

[Gulnyr]

Imagine that it is the present day, and an army squad is out on a patrol during a war.  They come across an enemy squad.  A firefight breaks out.  Unfortunately, the guy with the grenade launcher or the SAW (squad automatic weapon) decides to find a little nook and sit this one out to watch, with some notion that he'll conserve his ammo for something bigger later.

I think the other squad members would be rightly upset at the guy hanging back watching.

I'm not suggesting a caster should just cast everything he's got on any given battle.  That's dumb.  I am suggesting that standing there doing nothing is a little weird.  If we replace the guy in the example above with the squad medic, who has saved a couple of the guys in the squad already earlier in the day, does that make it any better that he's not helping now?  Of course not.  Just because your character has already buffed a few people or fireballed a few things doesn't mean he's paid his way.  Also, if you're not treating every combat as a life or death situation, you're probably metagaming a little.  How can you be sure that's the same ol' spawn of fairly easy giants and not a small pack of epic adventurer giants (averaging level 27) who just happen to be home visiting and resupplying?

I had a quick point but got carried away.  Casters don't have to cast to look like they are doing something.  Get a sling or crossbow and a stack or two of ammo, enough to last a few encounters.  It can be cheap stuff.  Then fire at enemies once they are engaged and stuck on melee guys.  You may never hit, but you look like you are trying, which is important.  Maybe you will hit, though, and crossbows can be nasty.    And carry some tossable potions to use on the other guys.  Tossing potions = being helpful.

[Weeblie]

Excellent military metaphor...!

[Krell Himmler]

You can fire more than five grenades in a day, you can also fire far more Saw rounds.....

I don't think it compares as the mage just have far more limited resources than any squad support weapons. You can also expect maybe one, maybe two battles in a day if you're unlucky. In reality you also can't survive direct damage from the enemy and continue fighting as if nothing is wrong, a single injury can be fatal. In DnD you can take serious punishment before death, meaning one can save finite resources until the opportune moment, when they're needed.

But one could even stretch this argument towards re-supply, the squad would have to wait until resupply before using it's heavier and more important weaponry. That is, resting in the DnD world, the level of input of a mage, or said heavy weaponry dictates how often they will need re-supply. And the foolish mage who casts all his/her spells into every fray may find themselves in a bit of trouble when things go bad, as they also do.

I would also hope, that a wizard with his large intelligence would be able to observe a battle and decide when his input is needed, this is in my opinion half of the skill of the class, knowing what to use and when.

One does not fire all guns of the artillery for every little skirmish, but saves it for the bigger, more important battles. In fact one would not fire artillery at all in something judged to be a light skirmish...

[Gulnyr]

Don't focus on the military stuff and the reality of it, look at the connection to the game.

I said specifically that the casting of all spells wasn't the idea.  Get a backup weapon and some potions and do something so you don't stand there looking useless.  Saving spells for later is fine.  It's awesome, even.  But just standing there while others fight is silly.

[ystrday]

I find surviving is nice, and will always try and use my buffs first to those that will most keep us alive. One thing I feel fortunate learning in the beginning from experienced casters/clerics and such is judicious use of my spells. Specially now as you advance and your resting time gets longer and longer apart. Like in life you have to pick your battles, if a group's only means of survival is a spellcasters spell well then maybe that group shouldn't be there to begin with. But that doesn't mean a mage/cleric has to be stereotyped into their role either. I made it a point that my mage is good at healing, archery, and a sword so she fits in to what the group may need at a time or emergency. And always be prepared for the unexpected.

[Krell Himmler]

What if a crossbow is beyond one's carrying capacity? lol

[Gulnyr]

Sling?

[aragwen]

Get a sling or a bow. *winks*
 
 But that is not really the point, the point is just do something and not nothing. Heal people, tell a funny story, dance, sing, whatever.

[jan]

What if a crossbow is beyond one's carrying capacity? lol

Then you probably need to buy some bags and get your inventory sorted out :p

[Erik K]

I think my origional point isnt that a caster should stand around, (Marcus uses a bow, when he is not doing anything else) but that the more we do, the faster we deplete our spells.  Consequently, the more we need to rest.  There are a lot of parties that like the run and hack thing and hate to rest for the caster, especially if they have to wait for a bit due to the new resting restrictions. As a result, often, due to things like a lot of healings, from fighters just charging into a mass of unfriendlies, I m left running around with nothing left and then, Im expected to cast the good stuff on command.  That is a bit frustrating.  
   We also have limits on how many and what kinds of spell we can use and carry so unless you let us know ahead of time, what you need, you have to let us rest.

[ycleption]

 There are a lot of parties that like the run and hack thing and hate to rest for the caster, especially if they have to wait for a bit due to the new resting restrictions.

Find different parties.
If you are with a group that doesn't respect your role in the combat, why should you travel with them, either on an IC or an OOC basis?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "//ok, I think I'm going to bow out here, this party is too fast/too big/too hack 'n slash/too whatever it might be for my taste"

Talk about tactics ICly beforehand. Don't travel with a group that doesn't agree before heading off somewhere that they will give the casters ample time to rest, if that's an issue for you.

[Lareth]

When I first started playing here on Layo, some of the players organised a Wizards conference in Vehl, where amongst other things Spellcaster tactics were discussed.  One of the best pointers they gave was a lot of good advice on what to do if you did run out of spells, or were otherwise unable to cast.  In summary though some of it went a lot like this:

1.  Missile weapons - learn to use one, use it to distract and annoy the enemy.  Especially handy if you run up against an enemy spell caster - make them roll concentration checks before they can fireball your party

2.  Layo has some of the most useful 1 shot / charged items I've ever seen.  I run around with packs full of star dusts, wands and magic books all of which can really give you the edge (literally in the case of those that cast keen edge  )  So I tend to plan my spells around them, and make what I do memorise last that much longer - especially as most of them aren't too hard to find / make.