hatred

[Imperious]

I wasn't suggesting a good person couldn't RP a hatred of Drow -- what I was just wondering is if a good person could throw rocks at someone for no reason, other than a prejudice?  And yes, players can act out of alignment on occasion, but how often do you get to do it before you change alignment? Based on the alignment charts on the Layo table, about the only alignment that most typical players might do that and get away with it is True Neutral.

As a Chaotic Good person or True Neutral person or whatever, am I allowed to throw rocks at every Drow, Goblin, Half-Orc, Half-Giant that I pass everytime with no consequence to my alignment?

Just being the spanner in the works....

[blfarris]

hmmm you say tell a GM ... well it was a DM character who started the mess ... how far do you think I would get with that tell?

Varka, I understand your position, and I honor it.  I do disagree with it, But I honor it

I am no expert in Layo history, but being there is no Evil characters, I still think I had the right to ask for a name of the drow that made you so mad about drows.  Yet you ignored me ... To me ( a personal opinion) to attack becuase you see a race is evil ... If I truely thought I would get support I would ask that your alignment be changed a few points because of the action in character you did.  But I know this will not happen.  

As for Noss ... you spoke of him as not a true dwarf by D&D and NWN rules, and yes you are right, but remember Layo is different ... it gets a lot from those two sources, but it is different.  I do not see a history of drow attacking Hlint, or a particular drow in alliance with blood.  I will again state I am no expert in Layo history so I may be wrong here.

As you state, it is a game .... I will play Noss under the rules of Layo to the best of my ability ...

[Varka]

To: Quin

Not at all...you RP was good. But the lag was too big to contiune and as you know. All conflicts has to stop at some point.
So I toke the decision to leave.

[feniox]

My dwarf, Kurgaz, is of lawful good alignment, he also hates Drow, but up to this point he has never "attacked" one in any form, as it would break the lawful part of his alignment, but on the other hand being nice to them would completely detract from Dwarven-Drow animosity. He usually just makes comments about them or tries to ignore them.

As I said in another thread, the Drow named Suliss Dob'luth (sp?) has attracted most of his wrath so far (on multiple occasions, thus building a friendly rivalry), she wanted to come with a group I was guiding to some cougars, so instead of either welcoming here into the group with open arms or rejecting her completely (which is something I wouldnt like to do)
I said "come along if you must, but I wont be taking a hit for you, and if you fall behind you're on your own". During the journey we were attacked by a group of 4 griffons, I fought three but the other went to attack Suliss, after that one died I said IC "*sighs* I was hoping the thing would ta you" and then sent a tell to the player letting them know it wasnt personal and to take no offence to the stubborn dwarf, in reply they said "I wont, I like it. English is not my native language, so i dont always understand subtle insults". Which I think proves that even the characters being "descriminated" against are still enjoying themselves, as long as it isnt done in a wreckless way.

[Ayreon]

Imperious - 7/15/2005  2:26 PM

I wasn't suggesting a good person couldn't RP a hatred of Drow -- what I was just wondering is if a good person could throw rocks at someone for no reason, other than a prejudice?  And yes, players can act out of alignment on occasion, but how often do you get to do it before you change alignment? Based on the alignment charts on the Layo table, about the only alignment that most typical players might do that and get away with it is True Neutral.

As a Chaotic Good person or True Neutral person or whatever, am I allowed to throw rocks at every Drow, Goblin, Half-Orc, Half-Giant that I pass everytime with no consequence to my alignment?

Just being the spanner in the works....

I would assume if somebody acted out of alignment quite often, they should ask for an alignment change. Perhaps it's part of their character developement? You can't really know without asking.

[Ayreon]

blfarris - 7/15/2005  2:28 PM
As you state, it is a game .... I will play Noss under the rules of Layo to the best of my ability ...

Again, you bring rules into it. As far as I can tell both parties were operating under the rules.

Evil, violent, hurtful RP is fine, if done strictly on RP terms and is not meant to grief the user of the second party. Obviously, actual PKing is not permissable, save for when a DM is present.

[Zhofe]

No drow attacks on Hlint? Check out ZeroVega's post to see a whole lot of history of drow raids, not to mention that there have been atleast 2 or 3 drow attacks IN GAME on Hlint while I have been here ...so yes, there is alot of drow hating history on Layo.

[General_Ski]

Heheh. Well my new dwarf just told off some elveses. And insulted a halfling although being persistant and all we did hav e anice conversation after awhile.. It helped that she knew dwarven and my dwarf did not..

[Talan Va'lash]

Conflict is the essence of drama.

[orth]

Nobody did anything wrong.  In fact I think the person who is most wrong in this thread is you Noss.

As a previous poster wrote, what makes these characters played by PCs any different from the goblins or ogres that you slay endlessly?

You hate ogres and goblins?  How come another PC can't hate another race or person?  And RP conflict as such.

Also just because it's a GM playing this character means nothing.  In fact he's typically more scrutinized for his actions.  He's also made it as a GM for his quality RP.  I say hats off for finally showing some dissention and hate... This world is getting too huggy.

[Varka]

Well. Why Varka doesnt like drow is something you have to find out as Nossyla…
But what Nossyla did will not make it easy for him to find out - why Varka doesnt like them… (and to confront Varka frontier will not give you the answer. Maybe ask another dwarf – just an idea).

But I will advice to look at the following pages of the Handbook – 104 and 106 – (// OOCVarka is from bloody gate).  The handbook will not tell you why Varka doesn’t like them but it will give you a hint.

And about your question “what drow did make you mad”…

As in many RL cultures there isn’t always “a specific reason” for hatreds – (don’t know how to explain this in English – and in short terms). Some help from other players or GM?


And if you somehow felt attacked by my notes I am sorry….


From you:
As for Noss ... you spoke of him as not a true dwarf by D&D and NWN rules, and yes you are right, but remember Layo is different

My note:
(unless you have a specific story which is possible here). Which makes it funny.

Well...Dont misunderstand this Nossyla...but your RP surprise me also but I respect that. A nice touch I most say


PLease read the “end lines” of those two sections again.

[General_Ski]

Vaderdumm Daemonsmelter: "GRRRRR DRROOOW.. By Dorands beeerd, they will have to go through me. Law and order will hold... Even if that means drow bandits waylaid by the road!"

[Vyris]

First off, this is MY opinion, and other than a comment I quote from blfarris, there is nothing directly aimed at any single player or group of players in this post. This is NOT an official statement from anyone on the GM team, in fact, some members of the GM team might feel differently than I do on any number of things I am going to type here. I am going to put my 0.02 dollars in the pot because a few things that have been posted have kinda rubbed me wrong.


blfarris wrote :
hmmm you say tell a GM ... well it was a DM character who started the mess ... how far do you think I would get with that tell?

I rather resent the idea that GM's don't have the same rules as non-GM PC's. If anything there are higher expectations put on us, and the misconception that we are somehow 'above the rules' when in fact the punishment for breaking the rules as a GM would be FAR harsher than anything experienced by a PC. Theres no claiming ignorance for us, theres not going to be a warning, if a GM breaks the rules at the very least I would imagine they are going to get booted from the GM position they hold. The idea that GM's are some sort of 'ruling class' is just rediculous, but I've seen it before in every other online community. If there is a group who administers the games, servers or activities of the community they are the first, and easiest target. The GM team here from my short experience as being a member of it is one of the most solid, fair minded groups of mature and reasonable people that I've yet had a chance to work with, and I'm just getting tired of the GM team sucking it up and not defending themselves because it's the more diplomatic thing to do.

I reccomend that if you (a general you, not specific) have a problem seperating the psyche of your RP pretend character from your RL self, and might have a problem with confrontation with another PC who is attempting to RP thier characters racial hatred of the race you choose to play, then DONT play the following races.

Drow - A fair majority of EVERY race HATES the drow.
Elves - Dwarves in general don't like them, and depending on sub-race, some elves won't like you either.
Dwarves - Elves in general don't like them
Duergar - Same as Drow
Gnomes - Some people think they are annoying and distracting, not to mention dangerously absentminded.
Deep Gnomes - they get a bad rap just for being from the underdark.
Halflings - Seems that a few bad apples have labeled Halflings as a 'rogue' race, a lot of people hold thier purses closer when a halfling is about.
Half-Giants - Most dwarves wont like them, may even be hostile
Half-Elves - Elves will look down on you, humans will think you are looking down on them.
Half-Orcs - Crude, smally, stupid...You'l lucky if your MOTHER likes you.
Orcs - Half-Orc x5
Goblin - Please... goblins have been newbie fodder for as long as there was fantasy RP
Humans - Brash, impulsive, more often than not motivated by greed or some twisted personal agenda, worse yet, they breed religious zealots at an alarming rate, elves and dwarves at least start out distrustfull most of the time.
Tiefling - Infernal blood taint... 'nuff said.
Aasimar - Holier than thou planes touched beings who really are Holier than thou, snotty and arrogant.

I guess that leaves Brownies and Wemics... who are too new as a PC race to have a history of racial preferrance... no, wait...Wemics are pridefull and arrogant as well.

Be a Brownie, they are supposed to be timid, helpfull, kind and shy creatures. All the other races view them as beneficial and not only tolerate them well, but would want to encourage thier company...OH... no, didn't thier homeland just get destroyed? Well, I guess Brownies probably have someone they could fit into some racial hatred RP too.

Guess that pretty much rules out a race that has no racial hatred or a trait of thier own that might inspire another race or even individual from fostering a bit of animosity...tough luck I guess.

Maybe the day will come when the GM team will quit dodging all the rules for thier personal gain and they can create a 'Daisy' race. Everyone likes Daisies. Except those of us with hayfever... shoot... this is hard!

This isn't real life. This isn't some generic, politically correct alternative to the admittedly diverse, divisive and depressingly violent world we all LIVE in. This is a chaotic land in turmoil and under a great danger from a nigh unstoppable foe.

Pick your pill Neo, one takes you back to the depressing reality of people who are willing to blow themselves up in a busload of commuters who have absolutely no idea what the message they are about to die for is. The other pill takes you to a land where your every breath could be your last, your enemies, both obvious and subtle plot your ultimate demise and YOU can make a difference in the fate of the world.


*picks up his soap-box and gives it back to Grubber so he can see over the counter at the Orc Bashers shop*
(Oh no, Gloin must hate Orcs, bad bad orc basher! Orcs are people too!)


Vyris

[Zhofe]

Well if angrily said Vyris. Particularly the comment on GMs. You guys get a bad rap.

So I guess you can add GM to the list of races not to play too.

And personally, I think a brownie would creep me out a bit ...

[steverimmer]

Well since I'm the one who started this I'll make a comment too if I may....

Firstly Noss I'm sorry if you were offended by this and from your post it seems you were, you could have sent a simple tell and I'd have tried to explain something of what was happening and why but I didn't get anything from you.  Secondly the two drow concerned were happy OOC with what was happening so we continued and there was some fine examples of RP from all the players involved.

So I thought that since its become a forum matter I'd post a little OOC to justify what happened but of course no one knows this in game

Firstly Jehannum is a Svirfneblin an underdark race of gnomes who have traditional been hunted and murdered enmass by the drow.  They have been enslaved as people, persecuted and well you get the idea by the drow too.  This has been going on forever really, even their native religion with Beryl is heavily affected by this.  However if you read Jehannum's Bio

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15450&posts=2

you will realise that he has even more reason's, personal ones at that to hate them.  Now the problem is that he's a Svirfneblin and not particulary powerful at that so he isn't going to call down fire from heaven or wade into them with a sword even though he wishes he could.  But throwing stones, calling them names, trying to get them driven out of town yes these are things he can and will do.  He'd be the first to gloat and laugh at their pains and misfortunes as well, he'd not heal raise or buff them in anyway either.  This is all IC.  To be honest as a player I find this pretty hard...being a team member and everything.  Earlier on in the day I was with a party which had a drow character in it.  One that one of my other characters gets along with very well, anyway she was killed or rather reduced to something like -5 points so she could have been saved.  Guess who was the nearest character....right it was Jehannum but to be IC I had him gloat over her fallen body and let her die when it would have been easy to save her.  As a player it was hard and yes I felt a bit guilty but it was right for Jehannum.  I did send a tell explaining why and all was good, but it had to be done that way.

Anyway a bit about the drow themselves....well they basically are an evil race.  Its bred into them over millenia...ever wondered were driders come from?  Well ask Ozy or one of the other players but you may be suprised, they are not good compassionate beings even to their own.  Take a look at Zero's post it explains a lot of what they are like.

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15458&posts=40

It is true some drow have good alignments and are helping in the Bloodwar but how do you really know?  Drow are masters at lies and deception and will use this just as often to get their ways as fighting and killing.  That drow you've travelled with who's saved your life many times and helped you when you've needed it, is just as likely to stab you in the back with a poisoned dagger at a critical moment when it suits her purposes.  Of course most PC's arn't played like that but that sort of thing is something the drow would do.  Jehannum himself thinks that all the drow in Hlint and beyond who say they are good are upto just that sort of deception.

Anyway when it comes down to it...it is just a game.  But it is one that needs to played respectfully or it all falls apart then characters don't follow alignments, their historys mean nothing and the most dreadful things that happen to a character are forgotton when its convienient, and the whole world then and its RP becomes something of a joke.

I hope this has explained something about why this happened and also why he'll act in a similar way in the future when confronted by the things he hates the most.  Perhaps if it does cause offence to too many players he will be killed off...heh in a drow raid perhaps that would be ironic.  Although I personally hope he does stay the distance and make his mark in Layo even though it may be in crayon and a bit wobbly

[Victor]

Racial hatred certainly fits into the context of a fantasy role-playing world.  Attacking a person because they belong to the same race as individuals who have committed wrong is an act of selfishness.  It directs blame at a person who may be entirely blameless in order to satify a misguided sense of pride or justice.

Using the alignment system as a guide, it can be described as evil.

Feel free to role-play your character however you choose.  Be prepared to accept the consequences.

[Rhizome]

I need to make a quick comment here to follow up what Vyris has said.  There is a mechanism in place on this server for filing complaints and grievances.  PvP, griefing, or more general issues clearly fit within that domain.  The mechanism is in place to not only deal with issues between players, but also between players and GMs.  It is important that if you find yourself in such a situation and need assistance dealing with it, that you follow the propper grievance procedure.
  You can either file a public report by following these guidelines:
  http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=14402&posts=1
  Or you can send a PM to me or Leanthar.  Please consider sending it to me first, as Leanthar has his hands full with various other duties.
  If you do not follow these procedures, then your complaint has far less weight.  Instead of being an issue you'd like to see resolved, it instead can look like an implicit attempt to further stir things up.
  Thank you for reading this.
  Rhizome

[Andrexea]

Ok, after reading all the posts I thought I should post as well.  I am Kayla Warcrest in the game and I will state that I am GLAD to see more racial tensions toward the drow.  How ealse am I suppose to leave behind my past, fairly evil even if she didnt like what she did she still did them, and prove myself to thoues around me by my actions that I am good if every single person I meet greets me with open arms like a long lost family member?

     Now im not saying that everyone should attack the drow on sight as it would make it nearly impossible for alot of us to progress game wise.  But keep in mind we have raided hlint a few times.  Whats not to say were not foward scouts for the next invasion? 

[Imperious]

To me, Victor's post hit it right on the head....roleplay all you want...just be ready to accept the consequences, especially as it relates to alignment...and most assuredly there should be consequences. Perhaps there aren't enough now, I don't know.

You want to hate someone in the game for RP purposes?  Fine, no problem with that. I don't care how much you hate the Drow (or any other race) or how much you believe your hate is justified though....attacking an individual without cause is evil....That's why we have an alignment system in the game. (of course, Layo prevents PK, so there's a whole barrier there anyway).

I can see in the original example that someone might have thought that rock-throwing was a toned-down way to express anger, hatred...perhpas, but it stil leads you down to a slippery slope of what is good/evil related to your character and his/her alignment. Should characters be conscious of their reactions to Drow in light of the reptuation of their race. Sure?  Should they also be conscious of their actions towards individuals of those race with regards to their alignment? The only answer is an equally affirmative response.

There was a great example earlier in the post of a dwarf hoping his Drow companion would die. As a LG dwarf, should he have to come to the Drow's aid if it had been needed?...I don' tknow...I am tempted to say yes, looking at alignments, but I think it's open to interpretation...

[Zhofe]

Being a Drow is reason for attack ...

If attacking a drow in town is evil then attackin the undead in town is also evil

Afterall, they are just living impaired ...

I mean really, if attacking is evil then we are ALL evil, and should all be perma-retired because we went evil without a CDQ.

Don't get me wrong, I'll defend your right to not hate drow just as much as I will defend your right to hate them.