Hit Dice Question

[soul101]

Probably more simple than it seems:

On looking at the spell "Mass Charm",  I noticed the number of characters affected equals twice the casters Hit Dice. So a Wizard could charm up to 8 non-allied characters... But one thing which has always confused me, and which I have always been afraid to ask, is which hit dice is used when multiclassed? Is it the highest one, the last one, or an average? This could be quite significant for, say, a Sorc/Fighter...
My assumption has always been the caster class hd is the one that counts, hence in the above multiclass the 19 Sorc/1 Fighter would still use a hd4 for spell effects, even if the Fighter level was taken last.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

What die you got or not doesn't matter for the purposes of determining Hit Dice... d4, d6, d8, d100; doesn't matter. The term "Hit Dice" is used in place of "Level" to prevent confusion between caster level and ECL (effective character level, synonymous with "hit dice").

If you're a Wiz 10/Ftr 10 casting Bob's Spell of Charming Doom, which can control up to 10d6 creatures (to a maximum of twice the caster's Hit Dice), you could theoretically capture 20 1HD Goblins (as the character has twenty hit dice, or character levels).

[Dorganath]

Hit Dice is another term for "level".  It's not the die used but rather the number of dies used to roll for HPs.  Kind of a silly thing, but there it is, and in other words, it scales with level.
  Edit: too slow

[soul101]

thanks. that makes a lot more sense now.

[ladyfireoak]

its one o' em 'ere throwbacks to when Gary come up an 'anded us these rools and suchlike, e'd jus painted on soma that newfangled papyrus stuff, fer some sorta new game e'd found in 'is 'ead-like.

[darkwulf365]

*Harkens back to the days before the wizards came to the coast, a lower AC was good, and the reverse mathematics required to resolve combat held sway over all*

[Dorganath]

THAC0!!!!!
  (enough said)

[laurabunny]

I have a sudden urge to start a band called THAC0.  They could play gratuitously complex songs that mostly just confuse people (with the exception of some of their original hard-core fans), but rename themselves and make more sense on their third album.

[Drizzlin]

My base THACO is neg 20!

[Drizzlin]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/29/2006  5:17 AM

What die you got or not doesn't matter for the purposes of determining Hit Dice... d4, d6, d8, d100; doesn't matter. The term "Hit Dice" is used in place of "Level" to prevent confusion between caster level and ECL (effective character level, synonymous with "hit dice").

If you're a Wiz 10/Ftr 10 casting Bob's Spell of Charming Doom, which can control up to 10d6 creatures (to a maximum of twice the caster's Hit Dice), you could theoretically capture 20 1HD Goblins (as the character has twenty hit dice, or character levels).

But, remember your caster level is how many you can affect. In this case, you are considered only a level 10 Wiz.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

THAC0, my greatest foe, you taunt my math-related woe
With negative and positive; I doubt my character will live
These next three rounds. Sadness abounds, when into dust my rogue is ground.
THAC0, my greatest foe, my AC never has been low,
And my to hit is in the pit, this system makes me want to spit.

[laurabunny]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/29/2006  8:16 PM  THAC0, my greatest foe, you taunt my math-related woe With negative and positive; I doubt my character will live These next three rounds. Sadness abounds, when into dust my rogue is ground. THAC0, my greatest foe, my AC never has been low, And my to hit is in the pit, this system makes me want to spit.

 You're hired.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Drizzlin - 11/29/2006  8:14 PM  

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/29/2006  5:17 AM  What die you got or not doesn't matter for the purposes of determining Hit Dice... d4, d6, d8, d100; doesn't matter. The term "Hit Dice" is used in place of "Level" to prevent confusion between caster level and ECL (effective character level, synonymous with "hit dice").  If you're a Wiz 10/Ftr 10 casting Bob's Spell of Charming Doom, which can control up to 10d6 creatures (to a maximum of twice the caster's Hit Dice), you could theoretically capture 20 1HD Goblins (as the character has twenty hit dice, or character levels).

 But, remember your caster level is how many you can affect. In this case, you are considered only a level 10 Wiz.

 Wrong. Here is the given spell:  Bob's Spell of Charming Doom School: Enchantment Level: 9 Blah Blah Blah: Wee! Saving Throw: Will Negates Spell Resistance: Yes Description: Controls 1d6 creatures per caster level, to a maximum of 10d6 creatures with a total of twice the caster's Hit Dice.  This means that a 10th level Wizard, 10th level Fighter would be able to control between 10 and 60 creatures (10d6 of 'em), but the total Hit Dice of the creatures controlled is determined by the caster's HIT DICE, NOT CASTER LEVEL. In this case, the caster is Caster Level 10, Character Level 20, and as such as 20 Hit Dice for all purposes relating to Hit Dice.  For clarity, I've chosen another spell.  Mass Charm Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8 Innate Level: 8 School: Enchantment Descriptor(s): Mind-Affecting Component(s): Verbal Range: Short Area of Effect / Target: Large Duration: 1 Round / Level Additional Counter Spells: Save: Will Negates Spell Resistance: Yes  In the eyes of all non-allied creatures within the area of affect, the personal reputation of the caster is improved by 50%. The caster can charm up to twice his HIT DICE in creatures.  Hit Dice refers to TOTAL CHARACTER LEVEL, not just Caster Level. Therefore, a Wiz10/Ftr10 can charm up to 40 HD worth of creatures... That's twenty 2HD Orcs, four 10HD Ogres, or one 40HD Fisterion. *Chuckles.* Though Fisty probably has a few more Hit Dice than that.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

laurabunny - 11/29/2006  8:18 PM  

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/29/2006  8:16 PM  THAC0, my greatest foe, you taunt my math-related woe With negative and positive; I doubt my character will live These next three rounds. Sadness abounds, when into dust my rogue is ground. THAC0, my greatest foe, my AC never has been low, And my to hit is in the pit, this system makes me want to spit.

 You're hired.

[CHAzz]

y'know, I spent a solid week once, transcribing my entire 11th level bard from his well worn out character sheet (mainly due to 11 levels worth of rewritten THAC0 charts) onto a set of 3x5 cards.  One for each facet.  Ability scores, weapons, equipment, magic items, spells.  He went from a four page character sheet, to about twenty cards, but they were much better organized.  I had two or three specifically for his jewelry...the first game after I finished, the girl who sat across from me tipped an entire can of orange soda on them.  Alas and alac, poor poor damp and sticky Elias Fiona cul Mach di Fionne!

[Drizzlin]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/29/2006  5:21 PM  

Drizzlin - 11/29/2006  8:14 PM  

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/29/2006  5:17 AM  What die you got or not doesn't matter for the purposes of determining Hit Dice... d4, d6, d8, d100; doesn't matter. The term "Hit Dice" is used in place of "Level" to prevent confusion between caster level and ECL (effective character level, synonymous with "hit dice").  If you're a Wiz 10/Ftr 10 casting Bob's Spell of Charming Doom, which can control up to 10d6 creatures (to a maximum of twice the caster's Hit Dice), you could theoretically capture 20 1HD Goblins (as the character has twenty hit dice, or character levels).

 But, remember your caster level is how many you can affect. In this case, you are considered only a level 10 Wiz.

 Wrong. Here is the given spell:  Bob's Spell of Charming Doom School: Enchantment Level: 9 Blah Blah Blah: Wee! Saving Throw: Will Negates Spell Resistance: Yes Description: Controls 1d6 creatures per caster level, to a maximum of 10d6 creatures with a total of twice the caster's Hit Dice.  This means that a 10th level Wizard, 10th level Fighter would be able to control between 10 and 60 creatures (10d6 of 'em), but the total Hit Dice of the creatures controlled is determined by the caster's HIT DICE, NOT CASTER LEVEL. In this case, the caster is Caster Level 10, Character Level 20, and as such as 20 Hit Dice for all purposes relating to Hit Dice.  For clarity, I've chosen another spell.  Mass Charm Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8 Innate Level: 8 School: Enchantment Descriptor(s): Mind-Affecting Component(s): Verbal Range: Short Area of Effect / Target: Large Duration: 1 Round / Level Additional Counter Spells: Save: Will Negates Spell Resistance: Yes  In the eyes of all non-allied creatures within the area of affect, the personal reputation of the caster is improved by 50%. The caster can charm up to twice his HIT DICE in creatures.  Hit Dice refers to TOTAL CHARACTER LEVEL, not just Caster Level. Therefore, a Wiz10/Ftr10 can charm up to 40 HD worth of creatures... That's twenty 2HD Orcs, four 10HD Ogres, or one 40HD Fisterion. *Chuckles.* Though Fisty probably has a few more Hit Dice than that.

 First off how childish. If you disagree with someone or think they are wrong, there are many ways to come across besides...  WRONG  This is what starts flame fests and people snaping at each other on forums like this.  Either way, I think you are going to have to find someone that knows a bit more about the conversion of standard D&D to NWN to be completely certain. I will tell you right now that in D&D, 3.5 it is the casters level in hit dice, which is the CASTERS hit dice, NOT the multi class levels of fighter as well.   ================================================= Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 3 Innate Level: 3 School: Evocation Descriptor(s): Fire Component(s): Verbal, Somatic, Material Range: Large Area of Effect / Target: Huge Duration: Instant Additional Counter Spells:  Save: Reflex 1/2 Spell Resistance: Yes Material Component: Bat Guano The caster unleashes a fiery projectile that explodes upon all within the area of effect for 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level, to a maximum of 10d6.   ==========================  If this spell was cast by a 5th level wizard/10th level fighter, it is not going to do 10d6. It will do 5d6. While the spell discriptions are shorter and more simple (some even motified for nwn), they still follow D&D rules for the most part. Most spells, even charm monster have a limit on how powerful of a creature they can affect in table top. The limitation is based off of the casters hit dice, which are again the hit dice of the caster's level in his spell casting class, not his total level.  If you read the Players hand book 3.5, page 59, under multiclassing and spell caster levels it will tell you clearly that a spell's effect is based on the class level of the caster, the palyer must keep track of whether the character is preparing and casting a spell as a ranger or druid (using a multi class druid/ranger as an example).  Your only argument, or ground to stand on, to point me out as "WRONG", when I was trying to help not be Mr Right in the first place, is that in NWN hitdice of the caster means the total level of the PC. Which if that is the case I stand corrected, not that I was trying to be "RIGHT" in the first place.   Also the discription of this spell is not the same as it is in the standard NWN instruction book that came with the game, which means the staff here changed it a bit. Again this could mean that the staff here on Layonara set the spell up to work as you stated, or they just typed Hit Dice of the caster in the discription, thinking we would take that as the CASTER'S hit dice from their caster level and not their multiclass levels. Either way I am not going to call you wrong, because I understand how simple it is to mistake how something is written, and since you and I were not in some kind of debate that I knew of in the first place, where one of us was actually trying to prove the other wrong...I will let it go at that.  I would however love to hear from someone here on the Staff on how the spell works just to clarify if it was changed for Layonara purposes or perhaps for simplicity because it was bugged.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I didn't mean to offend, Drizzlin. Instead of going on a long-winded "oh, I'm afraid that's not quite right, please allow me to clarify for the sake of everyone reading," I usually just say "wrong." It's one of my idiosyncrasies, not an intentional lashing-out.

I'm very well aware that Caster Level is determined by the levels in a spellcasting class - that is, a Wiz 10/Ftr 10 will have Caster Level 10 for Wizard spells. However, the term Hit Dice is used in reference to a character's ECL, or Effective Character Level, which, in the case of a Wiz 10/Ftr 10, would be 20. References to a character's Hit Dice and Character Level (not Caster Level) are references to the same number.

"Hit Dice" never refers to "Caster Level" in multiclass characters. (Though with some very few PrCs the numbers will be the same.)

If this is just a clerical error on LORE, which is possible, then that's that.

[Drizzlin]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/30/2006  1:11 AM

I didn't mean to offend, Drizzlin. Instead of going on a long-winded "oh, I'm afraid that's not quite right, please allow me to clarify for the sake of everyone reading," I usually just say "wrong." It's one of my idiosyncrasies, not an intentional lashing-out.

I'm very well aware that Caster Level is determined by the levels in a spellcasting class - that is, a Wiz 10/Ftr 10 will have Caster Level 10 for Wizard spells. However, the term Hit Dice is used in reference to a character's ECL, or Effective Character Level, which, in the case of a Wiz 10/Ftr 10, would be 20. References to a character's Hit Dice and Character Level (not Caster Level) are references to the same number.

"Hit Dice" never refers to "Caster Level" in multiclass characters. (Though with some very few PrCs the numbers will be the same.)

If this is just a clerical error on LORE, which is possible, then that's that.

Fair enough, and I'm not offended. As I said though I'm interested if it is a clerical error.

[Pseudonym]

darkwulf365 - 11/30/2006  9:57 AM

*Harkens back to the days before the wizards came to the coast, a lower AC was good, and the reverse mathematics required to resolve combat held sway over all*

Hehehehe. Am I the only one, when playing PnP, who, every so often, will grab the d10 when rolling inititaive?

Still something magical about the word THAC0 . . . evokes memories of PnP sessions with a 17 year old Dezza (him complete with 1980s Larry Fortensky style haircut) *reminisces* I could open the PHB to the page I needed with unerring accuracy! Good times!

NB. The thread had already been well and truly hijacked . . . leave me alone!

[Faldred]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 11/30/2006  4:11 AM

However, the term Hit Dice is used in reference to a character's ECL, or Effective Character Level, which, in the case of a Wiz 10/Ftr 10, would be 20. References to a character's Hit Dice and Character Level (not Caster Level) are references to the same number.

Um... one minor correction... ECL is equal to hit dice plus level adjustment.  Of course, for LA 0 characters (standard races), that works out to the same thing.  

One quirk about LORE in the player race pages is that they will list something like "ECL: 3" for half-giant -- this is the ECL at character level 1, which means that the half-giant has 1 HD and a +2 LA.