Implosion and Similar Spells

[Chrys Ellis]

I was just in the rift with a small party that fell prey to the implosion spell.  The battle had just begun, and the drow priestess cast it on a fellow party member.  We were all protected with deathwards, but apparently that spell doesn't protect from implosion and some other spells, like destruction.  The other party member (Seteece) targeted by the spell died instantly when he failed his fortitude save, and received a Death Token, his 9th.
  I'm not here to dispute the DT, per se. The reason for this post is that I would like to discuss spells such as implosion, that have no counter spell to protect against them.  The only protection is a high fortitude, and a good roll in this case.  Honestly, though, just about any PC on here would have died if they rolled a 1 against that spell, as far as I know (Fortitude save vs. DC 29).
  In a game system where death has significant consequences, specifically the Death Token system, aren't spells like this, well....overkill?  We began discussing this with the GM who was involved in the incident, and the counter argument seemed to be that deathward is too powerful for a 4th lvl spell, since it protects against 9th lvl spells.  There are many layers to that argument, so I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with it.  However, if it has been decided that Deathward should not protect against spells like this, then how about creating a higher circle spell that will?  My main contention is that an 'insta-death' spell which gives you a chance at a death token, moving your character closer to perma-death, should never hinge on a single dice roll as your only defense.  There should be SOMETHING you can do beforehand to prevent it. 
  A major reason I love this game so much is because with proper planning, a strong enough party can overcome just about anything, if they use their heads and work together.  Plenty of enemies and situations which would lead to certain death under most circumstances can be prepared for.  Spells like this make that moot, and it becomes nothing more than dice rolling; in other words, blind luck. 
  Perhaps I'm over-reacting, or missing something here.  I'll leave it at this for now, and let the community respond before I say more.

[Talan Va'lash]

I think shadow shield protects from it, by virtue of "immunity: necromancy" but thats a caster only spell.

Another way to protect youself from this spell, is to counterspell it.

Another way (though this is the cop out response) is to kill the priest before they cast it

-TV

[orth]

Spell Resistance
Fortitude Items
Saves vs. Death Jewelry
Know your enemy, take them down right away

This spell really is no different from the Beholder Death Ray.

And it's not a single dice roll.  He missed on the Implosion and missed on the Soul Save. Did he miss the Initiative Roll? Did he miss the damage to break the Priestess' concentration? Did he miss the spell resistance roll if he had it?

[dadunmir]

Talan Va'lash - 11/16/2005  9:22 PM

I think shadow shield protects from it, by virtue of "immunity: necromancy" but thats a caster only spell.

Another way to protect youself from this spell, is to counterspell it.

Another way (though this is the cop out response) is to kill the priest before they cast it

-TV

Actually Talan, Implosion is considered an evocation spell.

[Pankoki]

[orange]I can name about a dozen characters who can make a DC 29 fortitude save. I can name about a dozen characters that can make and have made this save on a 32 DC.  Planning and analyzing is a big part of this game, but to say that dice rolling and luck do not belong here seems a bit too far out to reach. Sometimes you simply get a bad roll, it happens.  Deathward is too good of a spell as it is and I'm very glad we have worked with our higher level death spells to have different effects around this 4 level spell. Even more so I'm really glad that a 9th level spell isn't countered by silly four level spells.   Like Orth said, plenty of ways to work around this spell, but at the end of the day you have to realize that part of this game is luck and how the dice roll, otherwise it would be a strategy game, which it isn't.

[blonde]

orth - 11/16/2005  3:23 PM
Saves vs. Death Jewelry

Does this help in this case? Im always confused about save vs. death bonuses....when do they apply? My first thought was that they only applied for death spells...Do they help save vs soulmother?

[Talan Va'lash]

Well... that makes sense I think.  More than PWK being divination... hehe.

implosion also has tradeoffs to other mass insta-death spells like.. say, weird.  Implosion has a much smaller radius of effect in exchange for having no obvious 100% ward.  There's also protection from spells (which I'm not sure i've ever seen cast... its in the game right?)

Also spell mantle, and greater spell mantle will foil an implosion (though those are caster only as well i believe.)

dadunmir - 11/16/2005  7:28 PM

Talan Va'lash - 11/16/2005  9:22 PM

I think shadow shield protects from it, by virtue of "immunity: necromancy" but thats a caster only spell.

Another way to protect youself from this spell, is to counterspell it.

Another way (though this is the cop out response) is to kill the priest before they cast it

-TV

Actually Talan, Implosion is considered an evocation spell.

[orth]

They help vs any of these:

Circle of Death
Finger of Death
Skald Wail
Implosion
Wail of Banshee
Prismatic Death Spray
Weird
Slay Living
Aura of Unearthly Visage
Howl of Death
Gaze of Evil
Death Pulse
Cloudkill

[dadunmir]

Heh...it does makes sense.  Though, at first, I thought it was a necromancy school spell as many others do I'm sure.

Can anyone explain why the DC for the save is set the way it is on this spell.  I was scrolling through the NWN script for it and there appears to be a +3 added to the DC.  Is it a balancing thing?  Did we keep that here in Layonara as well?

[orth]

dadunmir - 11/16/2005  10:00 PM

Heh...it does makes sense.  Though, at first, I thought it was a necromancy school spell as many others do I'm sure.

Can anyone explain why the DC for the save is set the way it is on this spell.  I was scrolling through the NWN script for it and there appears to be a +3 added to the DC.  Is it a balancing thing?  Did we keep that here in Layonara as well?

That is the default, and it's standard PnP due to it's small radius if I recall correctly.  And yes that is how it is on Layo

[blonde]

orth - 11/16/2005  3:57 PM

They help vs any of these:

Circle of Death
Finger of Death
Skald Wail
Implosion
Wail of Banshee
Prismatic Death Spray
Weird
Slay Living
Aura of Unearthly Visage
Howl of Death
Gaze of Evil
Death Pulse
Cloudkill

And Destruction, right?

[orth]

No, no Destruction, the Bioware default script that we use, it's not a vs. Death save.

[blonde]

Strange that it helps vs implosion then. Maybe a glitch from the last bioware patch?

[miltonyorkcastle]

Pan, I often agree with you, but in this one thing I disagree:  This > is < a strategy game.  To me at least.  Life is a game of strategy, and in that which mimics life, the same holds true.  Part of strategy is dealing with the issue of luck.  How far can I push it until my luck runs out?  Or do I want to push it?  All part of the strategy.  In the case of implosion, if my character knows Death ward doesn't protect against it, he will devise a different way to get around it (namely, one of the options orth mentioned).  A new strategy.

[Pankoki]

[orange] I was using the strategy term more in the likes of an established RTS. Where numbers arent rolled, they are added and subtracted.  I consider what you said, thoughtful planning, might be just semantics though.

[Varka]

*Varka looks at Skarp* Kill that bloody mage lad!!! Oi take the rest...ATTACK!

[Wintersheart]

If Deathward is considered to puny to stop these instant death spells perhaps a 7th/8th level spell could be added that gave imunity to instant death effects - soulshield or something similar in term - it would basically be an upgraded deathward.

Since protective wards have to be prepared in advance this would still be a very significant trade off - giving up a spell on the chance you may encounter something like this.

Varka - 11/17/2005  7:07 AM

*Varka looks at Skarp* Kill that bloody mage lad!!! Oi take the rest...ATTACK!

*grins* never trust fighter on this - Skarp take out the cleric!

*winks*
 

[Pankoki]

[orange] More immunities wont be added to any class. At some point chance needs to take over otherwise this just becomes a game of "bring the cleric".  No go on higher level deathwards.

[ZeroVega]

Yeah, gets annoying that Death Ward is a level 4 spell. Means that clerics can memorize half a dozen and never fear Finger of death (level 7) and Wail of the Banshee (level 9). Seriously that's messed up.
  Implosion is one of those spells that is (A) Hard to get (B) Very powerful against ONE character (C) Errm... only works against one character. It's like a finger of death that can't be protected against.... only shame is that clerics get it and now that it's single target I doubt they'll ever use it....

[FlameStrike]

It was changed to single target only? That's a shame indeed, but i guess it was necessary...