Lagging the server through bad inventory management

[pejsaboy]

I dunno about *every* character lagging the server, at least not noticeably as a spike. the only lag spikes I notice are when the ones log in that for sure have full[er] inventories.

[Laldiien]

Something that no one has said but might work. Call them out. If you are in the middle of doing something and you stop for 10 seconds, then see "MrUgly has joined as a player", guess what? MrUgly has entirely to much crap in his inventory. Post it. Scripting won't work. Complaining won't work. Begging the devs to please make this change, that change and every other change won't work. Public shame might. If you see it, and it bothers you, post. Say "I was playing on West @ thus and such atime and when MrUgly logged in, the server ground to a halt for 10 seconds." That will then be followed quickly by the "me too" posts. MrUgly will then either A) examine his inventory and go "Oh crap, I *do* have a lot of stuff. How careless of me. Let me rectify the problem forthwith" or B) Bug off. It's my game time and you can't stop me. Nyah nyah nyah"
  You know who the character is. You know who is causing the lag. Either identify them so they feel the burden or public scrutiny, or don't complain. What is, is. These are the limitations we have to work with. If it bothers you that much, do something about it. Stop begging the devs to make a fix when it's obvious the players are at fault. Hold the players accountable and maybe something will get done.
  That being said, will I be posting? No. Why? Because the lag doesn't bother me overmuch. I have been playing online games for years and lag has always been a part of the experience. I got used to it.
  So either take it upon yourself to police your neighbors and explain the error of their ways, or stop complaining about it. It won't change unless the players decide it will.

[Etinfall]

Man, I hope the sever doesn't lag when I log on. Don't want to be stoned by the community. I know I will refrain from logging in at all.

[Acacea]

Uh, or one could politely (or whatever passes as politeness for you; it's probably deadpan sarcasm in my case) send them a tell informing them of the situation before the "let me just post the problem to everyone else so the drama may ensue" option that is already a little overused.

[pinkpowerbait]

^^ What Acacea said. I would rather get a couple tells informing me than see my name in a post here on the forums.

[Eight-Bit]

Acacea - 11/25/2006 1:28 PM Uh, or one could politely (or whatever passes as politeness for you; it's probably deadpan sarcasm in my case) send them a tell informing them of the situation before the "let me just post the problem to everyone else so the drama may ensue" option that is already a little overused.

 It all comes down to the fact that we're a community and we should act like one.

[Laldiien]

We *are* a community. We should act like. In your community, do you whine when people act in an anti-social behavior? Do you stomp your feet and say "Gosh darnit, someone ought to do something!" Or do you stop whining and put the responsibility squarely where it belongs? Dorgonath, Leanthar other Dev-types have said ad nausium what the problem is. "People with too much stuff in their inventory." Ok. Problem identified. Now. What do we do about said problem? Huh? Huh? Whine some more? Make useless suggestions that can't or won't be implemented? Or do we tune up the players that are being wankers and solve the problem? Everyone wants to stand around and complain and no one is willing to take action. No one is willing to step up and say..."YOU THERE! With the 20 boxes of CNR! *YOU* just caused a 15 second lag spike...FIX IT!" Why, that would be rude! Impolite! Scandalous! It would also get the worst offenders out from under their comfortable rocks of anonymity and make them clean up. Boils down to this: Take action about a problem, or suck it up. Those are your two choices.  

Etinfall - [/FONT]11/25/2006 1:13 PM Man, I hope the sever doesn't lag when I log on. Don't want to be stoned by the community. I know I will refrain from logging in at all.

That would be an unfortunate over-reaction. Assuming the server did lag and the cause was inventory, rather than refraining from logging in, manage your inventory. Problem solved, happy gaming ensues. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

Acacea - 11/25/2006 1:28 PM Uh, or one could politely (or whatever passes as politeness for you; it's probably deadpan sarcasm in my case) send them a tell informing them of the situation before the "let me just post the problem to everyone else so the drama may ensue" option that is already a little overused.

I happen to be a very polite person when discussing issues with people. Part of my day is spent in negotiations and using diplomacy. I just think public shaming is a fast, effective tool for solving this particular dillema. Can you honestly say that there are people that have been playing the game long enough to have acquired bags and boxes full of crap that *don't* know that those same bags and boxes are causing lag? Piffle. They know, they simply don't care. They don't notice the lag when they log on, so it's obviously not their problem. How do you deal with people that choose to not care about their actions? Private messages? Sure thing. Might just work. With any luck, they will read this post and go "Jeeze, that guy is a jerk! I hope he doesn't post my name there. That would be embarrassing. Maybe I should see what I can dump." Ta-DAA! More likely, they will say "Jeeze, that guy is a jerk! I bet no one will post because no one wants to look like they are singling others out." That is MUCH more likely. And so our adventures in lag continue. [/FONT]Yippie.  
 

[Drizzlin]

My wife and I messed around with this last night. She has a level 5 PC, with like 10 things in her inventory. Every time she logged that PC in I lagged. While I know having a huge inventory will lag, so does simply logging in.

Every single time someone logs into Central, I lag horribly (anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds). I am running a beast of a machine, so it is not my PC. I can be on central by myself and one person logging in causes the lag. It is rather funny, but one day I logged in to central and someone (I won't use names) sent me a tell saying I was lagging the server (which I know and I am sorry). That same person logged out and came back and I was lagged for almost 10 seconds. I didn't bother sending them a tell, because I know it is the nature of the server right now.

I know we can try to do things as players to help, but the point is that logging in causes lag to everyone, period. I chalk it up as another negative trait to go along with my day blindness on my drow =P If i'm not under the negative affects of blindness, it is log in lag =).

[twidget658]

Umm...I just made the post as a reminder and an awareness check. However, I did sort of want to emphasize it.

Doing something about? I did. I bumped this thread with some possible consequences of what could happen. I didn't consider it whining.

[Acacea]

Please, I doubt anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes talking to me thinks that I am so overly concerned with being 'nice' that I will refrain from being frank with someone, which is what I was doing here--'frankly,' I'm tired of the drama and finger-pointing that goes on in the forums, and the quick-draw reporting when someone else perceives that someone else is doing something wrong, without ever having any direct contact with the people they're quick to talk about or post about. Yeah! I don't have to actually be super nice or polite, I can yes, actually force myself to speak directly to someone! MrUgly logs on, my screen skips for 5 minutes, I /tell "For christ's sake clean up your inventory, you're killing the server"

It's one big whine-and-blame-fest and I don't like the idea of contributing to it by encouraging everyone to 'publicly humiliate' others to get the point across. Perhaps it's because as much as I enjoy humiliating others, I like it on a more personal level. The original post even asked people to inform him if it were the case with him; he had noticed other people lagging the server and wondered, does this happen to me? Why does no one tell me? Should I tell others if it happens to them? Or did anyone actually read the original post? Perhaps it's just too outdated now?

Or maybe there was a database cleanup and some people still have more things on their person than usual because they can't log on that often, or logged off after collecting something and will be using or storing it afterwards. I don't know; some people likely do need a specifically targeted public reminder, but I don't really see why you can't just give them a head's up before 'acting like a community' and bringing back the practice of stoning.

I know preemptive firing "just in case" is well-loved around where I live, but if I had to single out one thing that I actually hated about Layonara rather than idly wished I could change, that has made me consider leaving more than once, it would be the WIDESPREAD practice of private back-stabbing and public targeted complaining without EVER speaking to a person directly. Many problems could have easily been solved that way but no one ever does it and for me this is just another example, if at least a lighter one whose intentions are to serve a purpose.

I don't know, maybe it's just because I don't like large groups of people or dealing with them, but I am in general much more comfortable and able to answer questions and take note of things when someone can work up the nerve to say something to my face instead of turning around and screaming out the window, which for me personally is what people do when they need a whole lot of backup if they don't feel capable of talking to me alone.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Acacea hits the nail on the head.

If you see someone lagging the server on logon, shoot them a Tell. Plenty of people in this thread have said they wouldn't mind getting one like that, and I'm one of those people.

Now, if you get some sort of nasty "YOU STINK DONT PM ME ILL KILL YOU RAWR" message back, then perhaps there's a problem, but that sure isn't just inventory mismanagement.

I have a firm belief that, despite a few cells of backstabbity, gossipy folk, (of which I was once one), Layonara is a friendly, helpful community who'll take constructive criticism and put it to good use.

To Memillies:

The idea of an Eschew for crafters seems, at first glance, like a good one, but... Part of the reason high-level crafters have to put so much effort and time into crafting IS getting those then-minor components. I mean, a 20th level Tinker still has to empty the deserts to make a Crystal Rod IV, otherwise what's the point? It's a balance issue. The only reason Pyyran doesn't churn out potions of Cure Moderate Wounds like gatorade is because he has to get aloe to make those potions. It's the same for Cat's Potions, Bull's, Bear's...

And with a recent surge in rentable player housing, it's easier to get a bit of storage when you HAVE to carry a few things around.

[Laldiien]

The point to my post was to just do something rather than whine about it. The moaning about something that is driven by a players actions is as insipid as it pointless. Send a private message. Send a tell. Post it on the forum. Email. Snail mail. Just don't keep whining about it. Either take an action, or put a sock in it. This goes forlogin lag, racial issues, power-leveling, casual vs. dedicated gaming. Either take an action designed to ellicit a response and change the world, or don'tcomplain.Really quite basic.
  Just as a side note, while the lag is created by played-induced inventories and the what not, a better newer faster world server would likely go a long way to resolve that. Did any of the complainers click the Make a Donationlink located on almost every page? No? Oh...just checking.
  As far as the back-stabbing that goes on, I can't comment on it. There is a known quanity of players that act like drama queens and try to wrap the server around their collective fingers. I avoid them,problem averted. I play for my own enjoyment; if that means I am swept into world altering events, YAY for me. I'll role play the best I can. If not, meh. I enjoyed my time.
 
  Edited. I was informed that one of my word choices, while descriptive, might have been offensive.

[Leanthar]

@Laldiien,

That is a post that is right on the mark!

We need to put it on a poster so that perhaps a few people will read and heed the words! Right on and totally agree.

[Hellblazer]

Laldiien - 11/25/2006  5:17 PM    Either take an action designed to ellicit a response and change the world, or don't complain. Really quite basic.
 

 
  Posting openly is a way to elicit a response.

[Car'l O'mek]

Sorry to but in, but as a relatively new player tothe layonara world, I've noticed the same thing myself.
Basically, crafting takes a LOT of misc. garbage and it's hard to advance into actually building something.
Arrows alone take skills in Cooking, Tinkering, Mining/Smelting, and Wood Working.

That means a lot of failures in each, and a lot of back ups to carry around for each failure.
I love the Crafting system on Layonara but I don't love causing server lag because I have to carry around all this stuff to make one thing.

It seems to me you already have a system in place that could be modified to work on a level like the "crafting Bank" suggestion.

Use your pawn shops like a pawn shop.  Sell the stuff to the Pawn Broker, then have them buy it back later if they need it at a higher price - or have them buy a "marker chit" that will keep the prices resonable to buy these things back.
(i.e. everything sells to the pawn broker for around 1 gold - a marker chit makes them buy it back at 3 gold - instead of 14 gold for a packet of salt.)

That way, once they exit out of the Pawn broker dialog, the items can be removed from the server until they are needed again.

And just like a real pawn shop there could be limits on time before the items are trashed, sold to whomever wants them. (I hate logging along that extra bag of sawdust or piece of cotton all the time but it comes in handy next time.) Give 'em 7 days to collect their garbage or sell it to the next newbie who wants this stuff but can't go get it. (When I play it's often only 4 to 7 people on the west server and not many low levels interested in helping me mine copper when they can mine iron alone.)

There are some cons in scripting this but you could try a test market in Hlint.  I'm actually someone who would rather pay 90 gold for 30 bags of sawdust instead of using my time collecting it.

For myself, something like this would help with all the Crafting tools I have to carry around. My ox pack is full of all my tools and I have no room to collect heavy CNR in it.  And since Shifty Semli can't sell a good axe or pick, I have to have doubles of most of those- at least.

It seems that modiffying this existing system might help the problem a bit, help newer players / lower level char.s, and offer a permanent store for CNR of sorts that Layonara lacks right now.

As for calling people out, I don't like the idea and there are some things that others need to remember:
-Houses cost a LOT of money that Lower levels just do not have.
-Housing is at a premium and it's hard to find a room muich less a house. (Rooms in Lelion are going for 3000 true a RL month! My Char has 4000 true total and that's his life savings so far.)
-Crafting takes a LOT of stuff that Lower levels have no choice but to carry around until they can afford a house.
-Ox Packs and Bank Chests are significantly limited in their carrying capacity. (I Can carry more than my ox and bank chest together.)
-Newer people aren't aware of all the server problems the inventory is causing all the time and it's hardly welcoming to get Griefed your first week on-line for not having any alternatives or not being aware of the problem it causes. Layonara does not seem like this type community and I joined because of that - not to mention the availability for abuse and the attracting of players who enjoy that sort of thing. Posting just legitimizes it.


As an alternative, expanding bank chests and keeping the items off-line until they are actually opened is another idea I had.  The system is in place already and would need tweaked but might be easier than my pawn shop idea.

I hope this helps but I have almost zero knowledge of scripting for a server it might not.  I am aware of the problems it causes but seem powerless to stop it and continue playing the game in any feasible way by trashing my entire inventory of needed tools and CNR everytime I log off.  I've got all this stuff, just no place to put it.

Thanks for your time.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Bank chests and such ARE "off-line" until actually opened. The reason they are so small is to discourage people from hoarding stuff.

Your pawn shop idea sounds good, but that's essentially the same system as was in place a while back, when the playerbase was MUCH smaller, and it still made the server grind to a halt every time someone accessed the guy.

It's not the people with three or four dozen items that are causing problems... It's the people with ten or twelve score, carrying them around for a rainy day.

Making 750 gold every week isn't too tough if you play a couple of hours every day. That said, many people can't play that much, and that's... Well, tragic, but not something that can be fixed by some system or rule.

As a solution for your CNR woes, buy the stuff from other people. Need copper? Find a half-orc stupid enough to give you three tonnes of the stuff for a good meal. Greenstone? Perhaps the local alchemist and gemcrafter would help; after all, he needs reagents for Cure potions, too.

[Car'l O'mek]

Alright, I understand that, but I have another suggestion...

Can someone please take "Shifty" Semli the Craftsman vendor to task on the shoddy work on his tools?

I have doubles of just about everything because they break. I've had a copper handaxe- the same one - since level 2. I've gone through probably 30 wood axes.

The same goes for Picks, sewing kits, needles, carpenter tools, gen tools, tinker tools... All of them break at a remarkable rate and I carry spares around when I am going to use one.
It doesn't make sense to me that a copper handaxe lasts far longer than an iron woodaxe (and lets be honest here, I get as much, if not more usem out of that copper handaxe because virtually all Wood is near some nasty critter or two- and I use it when I am mining as well.)  But the copper one keeps on going like the energizer bunny and the wood axe will break just about once every outing.

I did have a good pick tonight. It let me get 3 nuggets of copper before breaking.

If we got "Shifty Semli" to make some better tools then I would have a much much smaller inventory on my ox or on my character should I decided to go anywhere.

Or is it possible to offer some newer recipes for non-breakable items for CNR collection - Like an iron woodaxe that is three times harder to break - hence less of them and more stuff for people to make- again I don't understand why a copper handaxe can't cut wood- it cuts through Treants and Assassin vines pretty well.

Well I'm tired and just musing, but better tools might help a little bit. It would certainly thin my inventory by about half!

Thanks

[Dorganath]

Crafting is not meant to be "fast" or "easy"...so the amount of time and resources it takes are all intentional things. Personally, I do not understand why individuals and guilds hoard some CNR, especially the low-end CNR, just in case they might need it. I admit, I have been guilty of this myself, but ultimately I ended up spending too much time shuffling inventory and even just throwing some of it away. Right now, the only CNR I try to keep in inventory or stored away for use is the stuff that's harder to get. I know very successful crafters who have not turned their homes into chest-filled warehouses...even successful crafters who do not own homes or have one available even.  
  On tool breakage...Again, these things are intentional. Weapons are designed to be weapons and to take abuse (and the breakage/wear-and-tear/fatigue of such is the subject of another discussion). Tools wear out. Plain and simple. Broken tools help keep crafting slower and drains small amounts of gold from the economy. In short, we want it this way.  
  But in reality, your extra tools do not really contribute to lag like other things do.

[Eight-Bit]

I have no trouble crafting in batches over a few days if it is something hard. I make everything in a batch of 14 that are really hard (such as potions). Other things, such as metals or wood crafting, I just do all at once. Crafting is easy if you break it down into steps, and does not require a huge inventory to do it. Even complicated things such as scribing which has a need for several different items in it's steps, which I think comes to a total of like 12 items for 1 scroll.

[Meizter]

I have been away for a bit so has not been able to join this interesting debate until now. However I do wish to make a few comments.

First of all I understand why people find the lag spike upon login annoying. However hanging individual out on forums that cause lag spikes is something I would see as very much against the spirit of a community. And let’s take the example a bit further. PlayerX logs in, causes a 15 sec lag spike and his name is then posted. What if he simply replies “I need my stuff, too bad folks” what then, that has given no solution to the problem, unless you forcefully want to have someone “fix” him. The only thing we have gained in this example is most likely some animosity between PlayerX who caused lag and PlayerY who posted it. Hardly beneficial to a community spirit I think. I think Acacea wrote very well about that in her post.

Then what about those blasted crafters that carry excessive amounts of things in their packs? As 8-bit stated you can craft in small batches, but I will say that in that way it’ll take you a long time to get anywhere. Let’s face it, crafting is grinding, and to do it you need as much of a CNR material as possible and preferably as fast as possible and get the best xp/resource/danger ratios. I speak from personal experience here, I have gathered and cut and polished literally thousands of gems. I know for alchemy the need for items is far worse, and I fully understand why people that want to be good at alchemy collects many an item that they will need later on.

Now the idea of having CNR disappear when you log out I find truly frightening. Let’s say you go gather a really hard to get CNR but due to RL you have to log suddenly or you suffer a disconnect…then it’s lost. I for one would feel quite upset about that.

I will speak from personal experience creating and running a crafting guild along with Harloff and Wintersheart at first. We have lots of storage, I’d guess in excess of 70 chests, but that can be filled quite easily when you’re supposed to be able to deliver any item and cover any craft. To actually become skilled you will need excessive amounts of CNR, so it’s quite understandable people hoard it. Now don’t read this as me saying “oh it’s sooo hard I want crafting made so I can level 1-20 in 1 day” but rather as a statement of how things are or how I for one perceive them.

I will also say that I think Laldiien is right that you shouldn’t whine. However I think constructive criticism and an open debate is a valuable thing in any community. If you think about it before posting and try to explain why something is a problem in a constructive way then it can be a valuable thing I’d say. And criticism can easily be made without the need to neither point fingers at anyone nor whine about it, simply state things/problems as you perceive it and explain what you think could help this problem. The trick it to try and remain reasoned and objective in your post.

I guess as my concluding remark I will say that the NWN engine, as stated often enough, is not very well suited for PW’s, so lag is to be expected.