On the subject of starting players

[Shiokara]

Because there's a lot of attention being given to drives to bring in new recruits, ideas to generate interest, PoI flags, and starting areas, I think the general issue of starting out should be addressed.

Personally, I feel that the gap between what veteran players know about starting new characters and what new players know about starting new characters is too great. It has been suggested that many players can rattle off the locations of most of the POI flags, for example, yet this is information not afforded to the new player unless he comes into contact with the veteran player. Not only that, but it is on the veteran player to introduce such things to the new player in most cases, as the new player does not even know to inquire about such structures that can give him an edge in starting out.

There exist guides for crafting recipes here on the forums. There are even stickied guides for starting out. Why not have a guide listing some easily accessible points of interest? Or a guide suggesting what quests are available and where. Don't get me wrong. Veteran players do a great job in showing newer players the ropes and introducing them to the world, a task that promotes RP, but it should not rely solely on the shoulders of veteran players and DM run quests to show new players around. A player-friendly world is an accessible world, and after the sometimes daunting task of the character approval process, a player logs into a world where he is left searching for content. There is no motivation there except that which is intrinsic--a desire to better one's self and become part of the world. That's great, except such motivation can suffer if one's self-efficacy in actually being able to achieve that goal is low.

There is a reason I am writing this post instead of just writing a guide for starting players. I am, admittedly, largely unqualified to undertake such a project. I only recently found out about the Gnoll Watchtower PoI, and did not know about Marrent's quest until my second or third character. If anyone is interested in collaborating on such a project, however, let me know. Naturally, I'll also welcome debate on the idea in general. It could also be that I am, myself, just ignorant of such structures and guides already in place and easily accessible, but I tend to think that if I am ignorant of such things, it's likely that someone else who has already left, someone who is just starting, or someone who will come in the future are also ignorant to such guides.

For example, if PoIs are intended to reward and increase exploration behaviors (not considering lore knowledge as a desired outcome), then the locations of said PoIs should be readily accessible. With the locations accessible, the task players have is not to find out that they exist, but to find out where they exist. This can be done in multiple ways. Two that come to mind are: 1) getting veteran players' help in finding these flags (similar to the current system), and 2) encouraging solo exploration by giving players an area for a flag, but not the transitions they need to take there (this pretty much looks like a player trying to use the map of Mistone to find how to get to the Silkwood Forest). While one is certainly much more efficient than the other, the information is still accessible and useful in other ways.

This would also allow players to ask more specific questions than just, "How do I make it?" to veteran players.

Honestly, I see no reason why such knowledge shouldn't be painfully apparent considering those structures (like beginning quests) are just set up to help bump those players to a more world-friendly level.

[Script Wrecked]

Who is this Marrent person?

Unfortunately, once you've done the fixed quests and points-of-interest, you always know how to do them. In fact, starting a second character, it can become a "going through the motions" to punch-up to level eight or so by soaking up all the XP from the easy quests and POIs.

Contrast this with when you were starting out with your first character, you were stumbling around in the dark, making all these discoveries about a place you know nothing about. Which one is having the real adventure?

I only recently found out about the Gnoll Watchtower PoI, and did not know about Marrent's quest until my second or third character.

And how did you feel when you discovered something new?

A player-friendly world is an accessible world, and after the sometimes daunting task of the character approval process, a player logs into a world where he is left searching for content. There is no motivation there except that which is intrinsic--a desire to better one's self and become part of the world.

IMO, providing or establishing motivation for new characters/players is closer to the mark of things to be addressed.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Rowana]

PoI's are not a tool to bump up new people's exp. They exist to reward people for exploring. That is why there is no guide to them and there should not be one created. Some may rush out and grab them as fast as they can, true, but that was not their intended purpose. I doubt we would ever include more then two or three of them to get people started.

I'm a little confused where the source of this is coming from. When a new player starts out here... it's pretty much the same thing as when a new player starts out anywhere digitally or through PnP. Just like PnP or another video games we have guides you can read *points at LORE and the forums* to help even up that divide of knowledge or you can skip that, jump in and fly blind. I know a great many players do the latter for a variety of reasons and not just here, but on WoW, EQ, Vanguard, LineageII, NWN OC, Dragon Age... I could go on! Most people cannot do this with a PnP setting! There's no computer to automate a vast majority of things and as Layonara is half video game half PnP it stands to reason that such a tactic might make things more difficult for them.

There are changes coming to the world (as has been mentioned repeatedly I know, these take time to prepare and, we only have so many hours in a day) and hopefully some of these changes will address some of the issue(s) mentioned here. We won't know till we try it out. As Layonara is an ever evolving place it is good to hear feedback, it is good to have ideas but it is also good to have a good grounding on intents and purposes of systems and expectations too. Clearly one can't know the latter most unless they ask so we invite questions too!

~row

[Dorganath]

First of all, thank you for your interest and your feedback.

Second, Rowana made some good points above, and I would like to take a  moment to expand upon some other things and perhaps offer an  alternative.

Because there's a lot of attention being given  to drives to bring in new recruits, ideas to generate interest, PoI  flags, and starting areas, I think the general issue of starting out  should be addressed.

As a general concept regarding starting out, yes, I agree.  That said,  as Rowana said, changes are coming that we hope will address many of the  concerns about starting out.

Personally, I feel that the gap between what veteran players  know about starting new characters and what new players know about  starting new characters is too great. It has been suggested that many  players can rattle off the locations of most of the POI flags, for  example, yet this is information not afforded to the new player unless  he comes into contact with the veteran player. Not only that, but it is  on the veteran player to introduce such things to the new player in most  cases, as the new player does not even know to inquire about such  structures that can give him an edge in starting out.

A fair point, but you will always have a massive gap between the brand  new player and the veteran one in terms of world knowledge.  That said,  more visibility to the system is not a bad thing.

There exist guides for crafting recipes here on the forums.  There are even stickied guides for starting out. Why not have a guide  listing some easily accessible points of interest? Or a guide suggesting  what quests are available and where. Don't get me wrong. Veteran  players do a great job in showing newer players the ropes and  introducing them to the world, a task that promotes RP, but it should  not rely solely on the shoulders of veteran players and DM run quests to  show new players around. A player-friendly world is an accessible  world, and after the sometimes daunting task of the character approval  process, a player logs into a world where he is left searching for  content. There is no motivation there except that which is intrinsic--a  desire to better one's self and become part of the world. That's great,  except such motivation can suffer if one's self-efficacy in actually  being able to achieve that goal is low.

There is a reason I am writing this post instead of just writing a guide  for starting players. I am, admittedly, largely unqualified to  undertake such a project. I only recently found out about the Gnoll  Watchtower PoI, and did not know about Marrent's quest until my second  or third character. If anyone is interested in collaborating on such a  project, however, let me know. Naturally, I'll also welcome debate on  the idea in general. It could also be that I am, myself, just ignorant  of such structures and guides already in place and easily accessible,  but I tend to think that if I am ignorant of such things, it's likely  that someone else who has already left, someone who is just starting, or  someone who will come in the future are also ignorant to such  guides.

Agreed in concept again. And at one point, I had someone working on a  "Getting Started" guide for new players for exactly this reason.  The  effort kind of faded into nothingness, and I honestly do not remember if  it was due to a lack of attention on my part, the other person's part  or some combination (and if it was me, I apologize deeply).
 
 However!
 
 As Rowana said, changes are coming, and any guide we make now will be  largely obsolete and/or inaccurate.
 
Also, comparing them to the crafting guide doesn't really fit, because  while it helps someone get started, but we do not list out every  location of ever CNR available.  

For example, if PoIs are intended to reward and increase  exploration behaviors (not considering lore knowledge as a desired  outcome), then the locations of said PoIs should be readily accessible.  With the locations accessible, the task players have is not to find out that  they exist, but to find out where they exist. This can be done  in multiple ways. Two that come to mind are: 1) getting veteran players'  help in finding these flags (similar to the current system), and 2)  encouraging solo exploration by giving players an area for a flag, but  not the transitions they need to take there (this pretty much looks like  a player trying to use the map of Mistone to find how to get to the  Silkwood Forest). While one is certainly much more efficient than the  other, the information is still accessible and useful in other ways.

 This would also allow players to ask more specific questions than just,  "How do I make it?" to veteran players.
 
 

Here's where I disagree...but you knew that was coming, didn't you?

I agree that the knowledge of the system should be more  accessible...more visible to the new player.  In this respect, a  "getting started" guide would certainly fill this bill.  Within this  guide, as suggested by Rowana, having 2-3 explicitly stated  points of interest would be perfectly acceptable in my mind, because it  would both give that new player a bit of a boost (well...the character  anyway) and it would inform the player that the system exists and that  there is incentive to go off looking for more. Having an extensive list  of them and their locations turns the system away from one of  exploration and (hopefully) RP but rather to a simple checklist, which  really cheapens things.

By the same token, we have a collection of scripted, static quests all  around the world.  A starting guide could list a few of the more obvious  and low-level ones in and around the starting area(s), but again, there  shouldn't be any comprehensive list for people to just check off.

Honestly, I see no reason why such knowledge shouldn't be  painfully apparent considering those structures (like beginning quests)  are just set up to help bump those players to a more world-friendly  level.

I will agree on "more apparent" but not fully disclosed. Learning where  things are or having someone show you is part of the game.

Anyway, as we said, changes are coming, and once they're in place, we'll  work with someone to create a "Getting Started" guide, which will  amount to a walk-through for a few quests and POIs.

How's that sound?

[mixafix]

Could some/all POI be moved from time to time? Would that even the field if that is the desire - rather than to make it easier for new starts, which may be a separate issue.
 
 I think it would certainly support the idea that exploring a brand new world is more fun if not xp rewarding than revisiting a well worn trail.

[Shiokara]

My apologies. I did not intend to suggest PoIs are solely used as a method to give players a little bump. That said, I can agree with only two or three (heck, I'm even leaning towards two) PoIs that all new players can be explicitly informed about, just to introduce knowledge of the system.

To be honest, I did not know certain LORE pages like "exploring and spelunking" existed before this. While this page does help introduce the system, it is a little vague. It does not even use the term "Point of Interest". I do not, however, wish to beat a dead horse. It is enough for me that I know times are a changin'. If anyone else wishes to continue it, they're welcome to.

Also, I just wanted to let you guys know. You want to know a good way to get players excited about the game? Hint in discussion threads that changes are in the works that are so drastic a guide written under the current system would be inaccurate.

I have to say, after reading Row's post, and Dorg's confirmation of that claim, I'm pretty darned excited for whatever that is.