Pan's Quarterly Roleplaying Rant

[Pankoki]

Well it is about that time again when I get on the rant podium and write down all my observations as I play and DM in Layonara. As you guys probably notice its very rare that I get involved in roleplaying discussions and usually just post for more technical matters. So this time around I post my GOOD and BAD observations for you to brew or feel giddy upon. If you think I'm talking about you, then I likely am! Which would be hypocritical of me to say that I wasn't. Also, I know I'm not the pinnacle of roleplaying goodness and I know pretty well that I'm a victim of many of the bad things that I will post below, so if you want to point fingers back, by all means do so, it might be true. Without further ado, here comes my roleplaying rant...
  First of all let me start with a very good note. I would like to commend the involvement of many players in the world. This involvement however is not the involvement revolving around Module Updates or creating new scripts for the world and so on. While that is commendable in itself, this is about roleplaying. Some of you guys are going out of your way to make the world a living, breathing place. Doing things that make it seem like we truly are playing on a medieval world with all the nitty gritty aspects of the time. This particularly goes for the people in the Leilon Arms. You guys should be proud of yourselves. You've kept just about every aspect of a medieval inn (except for the whole merchant thing which I dont mind, just doesn't fit imho). And its a blast to visit there for all your special events. Keep up the good work.
  Housing! Of for the love of Beelzebub! The modules are so overbloated with housing that in order for me to go to a place as a DM I have to scroll through like three pages of housing. All this was placed because you guys have requested it. Of course here in Layonara we go out of our way to make sure you are having fun so we put the houses in. But come on! We are supposed to be playing adventuring type individuals. These people had no home whatsoever, they wandered the lands doing what adventurers did... Adventuring!! As far as I am concerned the only people who should have houses are Master Crafters who use their dwellings as both store fronts and apprentice halls for new up and coming crafters. Of course this isn't possible because of the amount of crafters, but I'll get to that later. Bottomline. Don't get a house because you can afford it! Get a house when you have a reason to! (And storing stuff isn't a reason!!)
  I think its commendable to bring up the fact people are actually talking after quests are over about the events that ocurred in them. No longer do players witness the end of a quest or series and then go into complete shutdown as if the events didn't happen at all. The consequences of quests and the collective memory of Layonara is getting 10 times better by the moment. I've seen it in my quests with my few regulars as they remember things that even I have forgotten sometimes but I think thats fantastic. I think the best example of this is Harlas' Orc quest where just about everyone in the world knows to a degree what is going on and I doubt they will ever forget of it. Major kudos on that department, keep it up.
  More on adventuring this time around. Come on guys, I know that we have certain limitations as far as NWN goes but this looping around the continent has to stop. Really really. I know we don't have that MANY dungeons to visit, but we have a decent number all around. With the proper party and the right distrubution of spells a nice 4 to 6 group can take on most of he dungeons in Mistone and can risk some limb in the rest of the world. Instead all we get is this constant looping around the surface of Mistone. Lets take a minute and take it easy. Explore your characters, roleplay more and stop "hunting" *shudders at the term*. Layonara isn't about getting high quick, this server is about character development and the rigors involved in the process.
  Another great point that I think needs mentioning is the fact that there is a lot of trading going on. No longer do you need to try and squeeze the roleplaying out of a player to get some bartering going on. Before we were plagued by the Player Vendor Curse. That while it provided a neat ability to sell your stuff, it totally killed player interaction. Now you can approach just about every character you need to approach and generally it'll be a rewarding experience.
  On crafting. Oi!! Why does everybody and their mother needs to be a crafter? Okay. I understand that crafting your own stuff can be rewarding, but seriously the gold to buy stuff from crafters is out there. The economy is right now pretty much non-existant from the overbloating of crafters and crafted items. Work with us guys! Drain some of that gold you guys keep accumulating for no reason whatsoever and dont all become crafters of all the things your character can possibly do. I would hate it if somewhere down the line we would have to face a wipe, that just makes me shudder violently. And no, a wipe is not coming up so no need to start false rumours. But to be honest I wouldn't blame Leanthar if he one day wakes up and decides thats the only way to save his world. We have enough skilled crafters to cover all timezones. Let them do their things. There are FAR more roleplaying avenues to become an apprentice to these people. I know Triba would kill for a few. And to you high level crafters. STOP SPAMMING THE MARKET WITH STUFF!! Get involved with people who might follow you in your crafts and take them under your wing! Come on guys, you should know better.
  I would like for everyone to take a moment and congratulate the dwarven community in our world. Lets face it, 90% of the dwarven players in Layonara are excellent roleplayers and are a refreshing touch to just watch roleplay. Amazingly enough these dwarves are also normally the more down to earth players as a whole and understand the world in many different levels. I salute you and keep it up, you guys normally make me laugh like mad.
  This one is a bunch of pet peeves that really don't enhance my roleplaying experience, and if they don't enhance mine I'm sure that at least there is ONE other person out there that feels the same. Okay, stop with the emoting spam. I get it. Your character has a neat voiceset. I dont need that to be imprinted on my soul. I can wait for you to type hello or goodbye. Stop spamming emotes, it gives me the heevie jeebies. Stop the run and nod. You know what I'm talking about. Slotting a "*nods*" emote in a quickslot then whenever running pass someone hit it and nod. Don't do that. If you are in a hurry, move along and don't draw my attention. If you want to roleplay, stop and we can talk. I am so tempted of slotting an emote that says *takes a big stick and trips him over* and then start spamming that and see what you are going to do. Please dont. I can respect your need to be in a hurry, please respect my need to not be.
  I love the amount of guilds and groups that are forming by mere player interaction. I think thats a fantastic thing that is coming up in the world. Guilds absolutely make sense in medieval times. Granted most of the guilds are crafting oriented, but I really don't have a problem with that simply because crafting guilds were the most popular back then. I would kill for more varieties to start too. Mercenary guilds, Thieves Guilds, Fighters Guilds, Monasteries, Cults, Temples. These things enhance the world and a huge kudos to those who have taken the time and effort to make what they have. Keep it up.
  This is purely as a DM. Stop reading creature labels (or tags, you know the little names over them). Unless its a pretty standard thing like A goblin, that Says goblin over the head and LOOKS like a goblin, then its a bloody goblin. But if I spawn a vampire and give him a dark hood and walk him around dont say he is a vampire, maybe I'm trying to just use its abilities for some other purpose. Maybe I just need the cool looks. Don't assume this stuff, it gives me hives. Don't give me hives. And dont give any DM hives, nobody appreciates that. Stop reading stuff and roleplay what your character would/should know.
  And to end on a good note, I love the creativity some of you are putting into some of your characters and the skillful use of their abilities. Its refreshing to find new ways of dealing with old problems and the more you bring into the table the happier I am. Keep it up and let the creative juice flow.
  See you in a few months.
  Pan Pan

[Leanthar]

Well said.

[Talan Va'lash]

I was going to add something to this... but by the time I got done reading it I forgot what it was... so, I'm just going to go with this; I agree. hehe

-TV

[KageKeeper]

*nods*

Very good post Pan. Very well spoke (er..well..typed, but you know what I mean).

[blonde]

Thumbs up Pan!

[Dezza]

Well said Pan!

I just want to say from a GM's perspective there is nothing more frustrating than say a party walking into a room and reading the 'Lich' tag above a man dressed in fine robes and straight away start casting spells and making comments like 'oh god watch out its a lich' when you have no way of knowing that it is one!

And...on emotes! Personally I dont have an issue with emotes as long as when they are used they are relevant, suitable and not abused or over used. Sometimes they can add a bit of fun to situations but if you want to spam emotes do so when in a party of people who you know and who dont mind you doing it....when on a quest or in a group with people you may not know very well dont annoy them by using lots of emotes.

[IceDragonDuvessa]

Well said.

I would also like to add that  due to our resources being somewhat limited by our venue sometimes GM's will use a dungeon or an area as "generic". Much like when looking at a creature or an NPC please don't read the loading screen and tag of an area and assume that is where you actually are.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Allow me to preclude the following statement with this one: I, coming from a long tradition of chat-based RPing, have considered any action, typed out with some sort of distinctifying mark such as asterisks or dashes, to be an "emote." There. Now...

There's aboslutely nothing wrong with emotes. Throw them at me, drown me in them, I don't care, as long as it's constructive. The little radial menu crap? Oh, no. Those are fancy gimmicks for people who don't bloody well give a crap enough to type out thier actions. I'm not horribly fond of the NWN voicesets, personally; the single most agonizing part of creating a character, for me, is choosing which voiceset to use. There may be more (and better!) choices for females, but still... Most of the time, the voiceset emotes don't really fit with the character's speech, anyway. Now, I'm not saying that a good many things, such as Bow, Laugh, and that sort of thing, are any detriment; to the contrary, the physical emotes that NWN supplies are quite useful, and help to preserve suspension of disbelief. After all, one of the most irritating things, to my mind, is being able to type out the sort of detailed actions that I would were I in a purely chat setting, but not seeing ANYTHING happen on the screen, apart from the appalling idle scripts.

Just my copper or three.

[Dorganath]

*claps and nods*

[Zhofe]

The Leilon Arms got mentioned ... so I am happy.

And as for the merchants there, well, to put it in perspective, there is no other place where players gather to sell their goods. There was a need, we supplied for it. I think it does fit to a point. Besides, on friday's, anyone who is ANYONE is at the Leilon Arms, so trading would go on there anyway.

[s0ulz]

Very nice writeup Pankoki, I agree in pretty much everything you said. And I second the praisal of the adwarven community! *thumbs up*

[Frendh]

Pankoki - 10/28/2005  1:00 AM
This is purely as a DM. Stop reading creature labels (or tags, you know the little names over them).

I try to avoid doing it. I'm sure I failed to see for
instance a vampire as something generic more than
once.

But I'd also like to say that the GM could help out
by early on giving an outer description for the
relevant senses. I often see myself and others
peer/eye/watch/look at new NPCs who pop up during
a quest. I can't remember any time when it has
been answered with a description.

Of course, I'm sure descriptions have been given, but
not often enough to make me take note of it.

[Pibemanden]

This is some very good points you have there Pan. I must admit that I am "guilty" of some of these things, searching for housing for no reason, crafting away, looking at labels and nodding while running through Hlint going somewhere else.
But the main problem might be that I am allowed to do all these things and actually get what I want from doing them (Except for nodding). Let me explain;

Housing; I can actually buy a house even though I don't really need one for other reasons that storage. Maybe the house merchants should be removed and instead the deals should involve more rp and some dm involvement. But I want mass storage and I can get it when I find an emerald or sell enough cnr-resources.

Crafting; Storold is getting quite good at alchemy and has never been taught anything about this from anyone except for some of the locations of the resources. Maybe there should be something that could slow the crafting process down a whole lot; other that the über high level crafting resources are hard to get because the problem is that the low ones are far too easy to get for a crafter that goes around soloing (Which I know is frowned upon but it happens and I do this too).

Labels; Here the limit is the nwn engine. It doesn't allow turning things as labels off. And as long as the possibility of seeing some kind of name of the thing you're facing is there it will be used by some. I'll try to limit my use of it but still the possibility is out there and it will be used by someone not reading this Thread.

Well I have some suggestions on how to solve this. First of all remove the tradeskill stats from the public; I know that it might help some to find someone who can craft their gear but it also encourages reaching the high levels quick so they can be on this list and it makes finding the high level crafters too easy.
Secondly remove everything but the player name and character name from the server status. The problem here is that I can actually see the level, race, class and deity of the players that I don't even know. The problem here is that I can do excatly the same thing by looking at a table when I log on to layo except for finding the deity. I would then like to have a more personal description in the in game popup that would describe how the character looks so I can try to determine it’s race in game.
The thing I am asking to have done is actually to make layo more time consuming. I know that some have problems with this but still it will really help the rp on this server. And the changes I suggest will not happen any time soon because the will alter the world so much that some PC’s will gain a huge advantage from the things they have right now.
The main problem might be that I am a lazy person and want to have some results and have found ways to get them faster than some would like and even I would like but now there is no way to change it unless it will result in the deletion of my PC; Storold. And I don’t want that to happen because I think that besides the flaws I give him, as a character by making him craft faster, gather resources faster and giving him a need for getting xp even though he doesn’t know what they are or how to get them, he is a very great character. But the main problem as I see it is that the server really doesn’t enforce more rp; because if it isn’t needed to achieve something in this world people like me will take the easy way around it and remove the fun for someone who actually rp a lot.

My background for writing this is four months of playing on layo and no other rp-experience at all. And this is not meant as an attack on anyone and least of all on this world.

[Pankoki]

[orange]That was the whole point I was trying to address really. We shouldn't have to monitor all those things you just said. Sure we could device mechanisms for almost each and every one of the points you mentioned, I am quite sure that the capable staff here can do it. But the whole point is that we should not have to.  Players need to learn to monitor themselves. You, yourself said that were being lazy and so on. Well try some of the things I recommended for a change and then see what pays off better at the end. You might get items faster one way, but I can guarantee that your enjoyment will be ten times better another way. That was the whole spirit behind my post, to have a player driven world, not one where the admins need to create a system for each little thing.  And the-hand. Yeah its important we give descriptions, I normally do when I bring a new NPC out, but just as easy a player can throw a tell down the DM channel saying: Hey is that a rust monster? [/orange]

[Pibemanden]

Pankoki - 10/28/2005  3:27 AM  [orange]That was the whole point I was trying to address really. We shouldn't have to monitor all those things you just said. Sure we could device mechanisms for almost each and every one of the points you mentioned, I am quite sure that the capable staff here can do it. But the whole point is that we should not have to.  Players need to learn to monitor themselves. You, yourself said that were being lazy and so on. Well try some of the things I recommended for a change and then see what pays off better at the end. You might get items faster one way, but I can guarantee that your enjoyment will be ten times better another way. That was the whole spirit behind my post, to have a player driven world, not one where the admins need to create a system for each little thing[/orange]

 The problem about crafting as I see it is that this has been going on for too long. The problem can be resolved but I think that these guidelines should be made more visible. Just add something in the rulebook about finding someone to learn you how to craft and remove the recipies for crafting that encurages to craft without knowing anything IC about it. The problem is that I and proberly many other who reads the forums less than I do don't know how to act and therefore just crafts away because there it's in the rulebook and in the game in those howto books. And another problem is that there isn't enough players to make rp-only contact good for finding people to go on some quest/"evil creature hunt" that actually payes of compared to the level of the character. Even when west is most crowded everyone can stand in their own area not knowing where to find other players, even Hlint is sometime totaly empty or people are just passing by. This causes a problem for those who doesn't have that much time online (I have plenty so Storold does a lot of sitting in Hlint) because they only have a limited time to find companions to join them.

[aragwen]

Good points Pan, especially the one about creature labels.
  Ever seen people scatter when they see a creature spawn with the label "Gloom"....wonder why....this person might be a very friendly person actually offering to help you.

[freemen2]

Pankoki - 10/28/2005  1:00 AM ...  See you in a few months.
  Pan Pan

 You better be talking about: only the rant

[Filatus]

aragwen - 10/28/2005  2:21 PM    Good points Pan, especially the one about creature labels.
  Ever seen people scatter when they see a creature spawn with the label "Gloom"....wonder why....this person might be a very friendly person actually offering to help you.
 

 If something is labelled 'Gloom' and glows red, I'm not going to wait for it to stand right in front of me, I run.  But yes, good points all Pankoki.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Good post! Made me stop and think... I hope other people as well.

[Locust]

I haven’t played on Layo for some two months now. Nonetheless I like to comment something.

First of all. I play in the GMT+1 zone and usually have 4 to max. 8 hours a week to play. I try to be as flexible as possible but RL is a major factor I have to take into account and is therefore limiting the contributions I can make, this made my appearance online sporadic and erratic.

What took away the fun from Layo for me these past months are actually the Guilds and the Crafting.

The Guilds create groups of people (which is fine) but also makes it difficult for people with little time to join or contribute online since their either not part of the Guild or can not spend the time to contribute because of RL issues (I’m not as charismatic as George Bush or have a high ability in RP or masters in English so that can be an issue as well). Most importantly however I have the impression that the world becomes more ‘closed’ to outsiders compared to 6 - 8 months ago. Information is no longer readily available on the forums or online and stays behind the closed doors of the Guild. In the end I felt I could contribute something but had nobody to share it with. Either because they were not there, caught up in other matters or crafting.

Crafting for me is a circle. You start gathering CNR, create items, sell them, buy better items so it becomes easier/faster to gather CNR, earn more money etc. My impression is that in my time zone most people are there for crafting and don’t want to spend time to RP (there are exceptions), something (the crafting) which bores me even after less then 5 minutes. I have the impression the RP is more dedicated to other time zones. I understand though that the crafting can be fun if you are in a group but I must admit it’s not for me. Also sending tells to everyone on the server asking if they want to RP is not how I want to play it.

On the flipside when you do not craft you don’t have money and don’t have access to better items that means you can contribute very little in the gathering runs so why would you be asked to join one? The other circle. As an example my character is lvl 8 and only has one crafted item (received from a friend IG) but still has major difficulties in defeating the goblins just outside of Hlint, I think I have 50 gp and I don’t expect things to change soon. Anyway I feel that there is very little I can do in with this character but to RP. Also I noticed that there were (just after the summer break) many new names on the server that were all almost double the lvl. my character currently is, I felt a bid out of place here.

The only way I could RP though was during DM quests and a little outside it but, especially during the summer break, it became scarce to non-existent. Maybe that was due to the Pibemanden added in his last reaction regarding people with little time.  The difficulty of finding like-minded people within the limited time you are allowed to be online.

Although above is looking very pessimistic there are still many positive points about this world and I haven’t given up entirely yet.

Hope it made some sence.