Points in Harloff

[Leanthar]

As has been mentioned in the GM area Harloff had a few valid issues, concerns, and points. I am going to open this thread for discussion. Do not use this thread to flame or attack and keep things constructive otherwise it will be locked. I will reiterate that it is perfectly find to give feedback, input, and constructive criticism but do not go over the line and make it personal attacks or flame. I want to make it crystal clear that he was banned because of his attacks, not on his input and feedback. That is what I stated in that thread and that is what I meant.
  One thing he touched on was the PrC’s and us choosing what to fix and overlook (or not fix) out of the bugs and game content. I want to clarify something on that subject. As you all know this is a volunteer project, nobody gets a penny. Everybody is doing this in order to improve the world and make things a better place for the community as a whole. That said it takes a significant amount of time and effort to make updates in a module, let alone a PW with multiple servers and modules at 75+meg and 1000’s of scripts and over a dozen involved systems that must remain as balanced as can be. This is no easy task and that is an understatement. Let’s take the skald PrC update. To fix the issues there it will take about 20 hours of concentrated effort by about three people at one time, total of around 40-60 hours combined if it is done right. That is time for finding the problem, fixing the problem, getting the patch (hak/tlk) implemented and merged, scripts updated in all modules and it being tested to make sure it is working with all of the other systems that we have in place. Keep in mind we have a lot of scripts, custom content, and all of that. Now, being a volunteer project we need to get those three people to have the time for discussion, implementation, testing, merging, building, and release of the module. This is no easy task. This is concentrated effort for long periods of time. In a volunteer project it is somewhat “simple” to get a few hours at a time per week available, it is quite a different task to get 6-10 hours at a time available in a single given shot. And you need long term focused hours in order to tackle those larger problems like classes, spells, PrC’s. The smaller bugs or implementations that do not really concern haks, tlk’s, or major systems can be fixed or implement as people get time. It is the large projects that require large amounts of focused and concentrated hours that are hard to fix (or implement) in a volunteer project. That is why certain things do not happen in a “timely” manner. On top of all of that, if we are going to fix one PrC we need to look at fixing the other PrC’s or class issues. Now we go from 20 hours (or so to 35+ hours) and thusly we need longer periods of time and perhaps from more people. This only exaggerates the problem in volunteer projects. Like it or not that is a fact of life when it comes to projects like this. We tackle what we can tackle when we can do it and I really think to expect more than that is setting yourself up for disappoint and unrealistic expectations. Ask any number of the players that have left the world to start their own module or world only to come back within a few months to a year or so how difficult and time consuming it is. It is not like RL and it is not easy.
  Let me give one more example on how things happen in a volunteer project. I had set time aside for Layonara today. I had set aside seven hours, five of them to work on NwN2 decisions and design as well as world updates due to GM run events from player actions and two for meetings. Well those seven hours are now shot because I am dealing with this today instead of what I had planned. So instead of using the time that I had sat aside weeks ago for what I wanted to do today (and what needed to be done) I ended up handling this sort of thing. Lord knows when I can set aside that kind of time frame to work on some of the other future stuff. And again, I can not work on it a little bit at a time as they are tough decisions, complicated systems and they can not be worked on a little bit at a time. But that is volunteer projects and that is Layonara. For players to expect us to do better than what we are is unrealistic and you will be disappointed. This is not me complaining, it is just explaining to you how things tend to work (or not work) on volunteer projects.
  Now multiply that problem by two to four times and you will begin to see the problem of doing major system overhauls or implementations. Not everybody can work on the same thing at the same time either as that just does not work at all as any system designer or engineer out there can tell you.

[Pen N Popper]

One thing that might alleviate issues with PrCs is to have players that apply for them cut&paste a "I understand the limitations" into their submissions. Kind of like the clerics have to do upon submission. This would do two things: 1) Players would acknowledge that they accept these limitations and are willingly going forward anyway, and 2) These limitations are clearly documented so there is no confusion.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

The only thing in Harloff's post that I'll be commenting on is his statement about the "secrecy" regarding some content. The example used was the Krashin stuff. Personally, I'd like to see more of that sort of thing - the things which can most strongly affect character biographies and development - released as it's made, and left open for comments and suggestions. Sure, perhaps the writers may not want them out 'til they're JUST RIGHT, but... While I understand the feeling (I'm just the same; why do you think I have so few dev posts?) I also feel that a good many of the players on Layo have material they didn't think to post, that would immediately spring to mind when other material is posted.

Put simply, I'd like to see more open posting of pre-final information on the world, when it can be done.

[ZeroVega]

I can see why Harloff may have been slightly upset about the Skald PrC. I'm assuming that he had a character that was, indeed a Skald, and I'd be dissapointed as well. Also, not everyone knows how the scripting of Layonara works or has the time to learn and then put it to use, so in his defense, maybe there wasn't anything he could have done personally to solve it. That aside, one must assume with the number of times the Skald PrC has been brought up over the past months for change, that it is indeed being worked on or at least put on the back burner as something to look into later. His criticism certainly could have been more tactful in that regard.

As for the farming system: Well, I'll be honest, I probably won't use it. It doesn't really appeal to me that much but I understand why it's being implimented. I had the same thoughts as Harloff did. "Why are they making the system when we'll "probably" be switching games in half a year?" It was good, however, to hear that the system will play a big role in the future and will be transferred to NWN 2, should we take that step. Had players such as Harloff and my self brought up those concearns earlier, perhaps this would have been avoided.

I also see where he's coming from with the Pan & Storm comment, though I believe it WAS out of line. Pankoki and Storm have played together since Storm first got here, which was probably two years ago I think. I have no doubt that they have not only become good friends but have helped each other develop as RPers; and since they joined the GM team at the same time, good GMs on Layonara. I admit though, with my semi-childish way of thinking, I too thought it looked fishy that Pan ran such a long ECDQ for Storm. I then got to thinking about it and BAM! It hit me.

Storm is a GM, Storm wanted to go Epic, that means that Storm would have to have an ECDQ (now WLDQ) run for him. It would HAVE to be run by a GM! So long as GMs remain players as well, it is the natural order of things that they will have ECDQs run for themselves, Storm's was just a little unique in that the majority of it involved just the two of them and it was a fairly quiet thing. Also, if you look back, Pan has run hundreds of hours of quests, as as Storm, and many times (to this day) they have supported each other by helping out on their respective quests. It makes sense then that because they know each other, each other's characters and each other's GMing styles so well that they would run ECDQs for each other. (It no longer looks fishy.)

If Orth is a bit of a "drama king" it is rightfully so. To say that he's not getting emotional at times would be a flat out lie; of course he is! But let's be honest here, if you put hundreds of hours into something only to have someone say, "It's not enough," or "I didn't want that," it'd upset you too right? It would me! If any two people on this server have the right to be "passionate" in defense of their work it is Orth and Leanthar. Also, if you notice, Orth may become passionate in defense of his work, but he never resorts to vulger name calling or insults on the person, only their comments and ideas does he correct.

Oh, he mentioned something about there being too many rules. Well, there is a lot of rules, but that is the fault of rotten players who decided to forgo common sense in favor of an easy way of doing things. The GMs simply reacted to players doing stupid things by creating rules so that there would be no doubt on whether it is right or wrong to do "X". Also, GMs are not exempt from the rules by any means. There are certain GMs who were on the team for a while, then left, and then got the "atomic-smack-down" handed to them after they broke rules. It's not an ultra exclusive club, and if I ever knowlingly break a rule I would be shocked not to get the same treatment as everyone else.

And last I'll address the topic of Secrets! (I love secrets don't you?). Too bad I don't know any about Layonara... perhaps that's because there are none. About the gods, can you name for me one character or GM for that matter that knows in full what's going on? I can tell you, as I was a GM, that it's not posted in big bold print on the GM Forum all the little secrets of the plot, the gods, organizations, different lands and NWN 2 transitions. As a matter of fact, L told GMs on a need-to-know basis, what the intricacies of the main plot were and I never was one of them because I never did ask to run a Plot Quest. I went into the Team with nothing but a couple years of playing experiance on Layo (the entirity of my RP experiance) and I left with an immense respect for GM Team.

Do you really want to know everything about everywhere? Do you really want to know what the gods are thinking every minute of every day? Do you really want to be informed on any pin drop that happens in the Main Plot? Would you like to know which characters have foot fungus, which ones are married and the full history of secluded islands whose history is a mystery to all but the most learned of scholars and historians. Cool then because you just described Leanthar's job and as he says above (and I ad-lib here) "It may be fun at times, and satisfying to run such a world as Layonara but it's a whole lotta work and the whiners and flamers really take what fun there is out of it."

Peace ya'll, I've got a project to work on.
ZV Out!

[Leanthar]

"....the things which can most strongly affect character biographies and development - released as it's made, and left open for comments and suggestions. Sure, perhaps the writers may not want them out 'til they're JUST RIGHT, but... While I understand the feeling (I'm just the same; why do you think I have so few dev posts?)...."

One problem with this. Time and clarification. I used to have a lot of information on the forums (about 2 years ago). I had to remove them because things started conflicting with other things. I would make a post stating xyz and then later update that post with abc or clarifying something. Players would not print out the new post and would use the old outdated information for validation. It was a mess, just total chaos. Now Ed has it to where there is information that is accurate and that is the way it should be. We can not have multiple versions of information around for the same subject, it does nothing but cause chaos. But to update things it takes time and effort and I think I went in to ample detail about that. There is only so much information we can get out there so quickly. Just because something is written up does not mean it is in final form, updated to work with all other writings and history/lore and is ready to release.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I understand the point, L. Thank you for the further clarification.

S'pose it's our job to put out our own ideas, anyhow.

[Chuckles_McChuck]

I have a few points to make here, but I happen to have a test tomorrow so I will only make one for now.

I agree whole heartedly with Harloff when he says there are too many rules, some make sence while others I find somewhat unessisary.  If you want I can get into some detail later, but not today.  I also agree with Zero though, that alot of the rules were placed because plainly put in many situations, players should know better.

Perhaps if the community shows a good level of maturity the rules could be cut down a bit.  If the community shows that they will exploit the lack of rules despite the privaledge given, you need just place those you removed back.  It may be a more time consuming then I make it sound here, but at the same time, its not like you have to make new rules, just place those you removed back.  As qouted from the RP guide you had a link to earlier "The realization we made at the time was that role-playing is at it's best when it just happens, and at it's worst when it is forced."

My rant ends here, I have studying to do.

[lonnarin]

He was totally out of line, as they all usually are when the do the good old explode-and-leave.  I really don't understand people flipping out over a free game and taking personal attacks on the people building it.  It's like they walk into Leanthar's house, track mud all over, bounce up and down on his sofa with their shoes on, then when they are not rewarded for it, they throw silverware in the microwave and try to rip the door off the hinges as they leave.  Seriously, if you get upset with a game server, go to another... there are thousands.  Go to EB and buy a new game... go outside... meet women, do something else other than yell at the guy who pays 300/month just so you can waste bandwidth trying to degrade it.

As for his claim that the server staff takes too slow updating things... pick up a coding book or source manual and pitch in.  This is about the opposite of a for-profit organization, this place takes time, money and stress to maintain.  If there's not enough time being spent updating a feature, distracting the staff and demoralizing them with LUDICROUS accusations probably won't get it done any faster.  I've seen entire entries added to the handbook because a new player wanted to play a certain clan or from a certain area unmapped, NPCs from quests run years ago immortalized in towns and shops (Toby & Sinthar's Bane) and almost 40 CNR recipes that I've suggested implimented within a month. (ogre leather, Garb of the made man, Boots of Arachnea, the dazing giant club, the new varieties of meats etc)  This place has the fastest and hardest working staff I've ever seen.  I've known well MANY people who've done the Rant&Leave (Idiotnoob, Murat, Bruenor, Highwayman etc) and within a WEEK of leaving, they already send me an IM telling me how much they miss the place.  Well then, don't burn the bloody bridges!

I remember when I got sick of playing Lands of Acheron and was growing annoyed with staff favoritism and apathy.  I resolved that problem not by exploding, flaming, griefing, going on one last murder rampage (Aliester, Elmo and Nathan wound up killing half the server's populace before forcibly banned) but by simply logging off and searching around for a new online methodrone.  After several annoying and uninventive servers, I came here and was hooked.  It's far better to just find another server and leave than to flip out and scream at people for their forum script color.  When you do the dime-and-dash, the worst part is the months and MONTHS it takes searching out there to find something even remotely playable.  When you can't stay here and there's nowhere to go, that's when the bar is closed.

[Acacea]

Nice, Lonn.

[Rowana]

Origionally i wasn't going to post in responce to this thread, but silence kills, so here's my two bits. I had a hard time wading thru Harlof's post thread for tangable substance. Some of his points may have had some substance but as L said they were discredited tremendously by his actions. As it is, I have to point to Ionnarin's post in agreement with everything he said.

I have beena table top GM for years, i have helped build two worlds PnP, and i have been a CO-Guild Leader on MMOs which is a scaled down version of GMing. I have to say it's a lot of fracking work and the co-guild leader thing, even tho my co was my husband, nearly destroyed our marriage because of blow ups like Harlofs, in addition to the day to day demands of supporting a populas in a way that basically dicates their daily doings. We had to sorrowfully toss in the towel and say goodbye to friends to save our RL lives because that, in the end is what matters.

Games such as this and the MMO market, are populated with Real People. No one pays the gms or L or the coders or the development team to do this, other then the satifaction of seeing the players having a blast. The fact of the matter is, they bust their butts and then get treated to complaints more often then thanks. Yes there are issues that can be addressed, points that can be clarified, but the best thing that can be done is the Player base needs to realise these people aren't our slaves. THey also have jobs and families and friends and car repairs and grocery shopping and and and and. Contributions of simply PMing ETK, Orth, or L about the issues pertaining to each's specialty goes much farther then anything else, and i can speak to this from personal experience in *many* *many* occations.

if i could put one thing up that has to be causing the emence frustration that many feel it's the delay time in implimentation or acknowedgement of issues pertaining to the world (PrC stuff for example). This has to be largely due to the beast itself, as it's not like L or Orth or ETK or any of the volinteer team wrote this stuff from scratch. Mechanics play a huge part, so they have to have *time* to look into all of this. I suggest that more people step up to the plate and help, in honesty, for the solution. I stink at technical stuff, but i am working my best at fleshing out some of the small details of Layo, like religious things not yet fleshed. That is my contribution, besides my rp, and montly donation. If we want to fix things the present team needs more help getting this stuff done in a timely maner. otherwise, patience, patience, patience. (the virtue and the action)

things mentioned like spacific GM criticizm or forum presences? there are how many hundred of us? no way can you expect to get along with every method used to run layo, nor are you going to see eye to eye with each volinteer team member. handle it in a mature maner, or if there is something truely baddness in nature, take it to L. He can't possibly be every where at once, and needs to know. *lack of respect*   comes in to play here. We can do better. we want something done better or differenly, work it out.

EDIT: for clarity

[crazedgoblin]

at firstHarloff statedhis arguement in a fair and just way,but personal attacks are out of order after that it becomes an attack, not criticism.
 
  EDIT

[Rowana]

responding in PM so as not to derail the thread.

[_M_O_B_]

Don't take this as a flame, and be sure to know that I do know that all DM's have their own lives and DM in their own time.


The way I see it is that most DM's aren't really dedicated to DMing. I see them IG alot but as players, I only ever see DM's on as DM's when there is a scheulded quest on. I think if you are going to chose to be DM, you should most of the time, whether or not there is a quest to happen. Things can get rather boring when all there is to do is listen to some stories, do runs of the Haven mines and craft. What made D&D so fun in the first place is the abilities that the DM had to make fun quests and such at every corner for the players. I know there isn't a DM for every player here in Layo, but it'd ceratinly be fun for some more random things to happen.

[Leanthar]

"....The way I see it is that most DM's aren't really dedicated to DMing. I see them IG alot but as players, I only ever see DM's on as DM's when there is a scheulded quest on. I think if you are going to chose to be DM, you should most of the time, whether or not there is a quest to happen. Things can get rather boring when all there is to do is listen to some stories, do runs of the Haven mines and craft. What made D&D so fun in the first place is the abilities that the DM had to make fun quests and such at every corner for the players. I know there isn't a DM for every player here in Layo, but it'd ceratinly be fun for some more random things to happen...."

I understand that train of thought and I used to have it. That is until after the first year of running quests by myself for the most part (before I started bringing GM's on board). What happens quickly is that GM's lose touch with the player base and how the world plays and feels from a player viewpoint. On top of that they quickly burn out and burn out heavily. We only require 8-12 hours of quests per month from GM's. We do that for a number of very good reasons.

1) Keep burnout from happening, or at least slowing it down.
2) Have a direct tie in with players and the playing environment because they are playing.
3) Able to enjoy their time in a volunteer world where they are here to have fun as well. GM'ing is fun but it is is also very draining and tiring.

Those are just a few of the reasons but they are major reasons.

[Crunch]

A suggestion to reduce frustration in Layo specific prestige classes.  Post the specifics of the abilities in Lore.  This type of data is readily available to players for all NWN basic and prestige classes.  Lore team has been quite proactive in keeping this data up to date for Layo specific changes.  The DC really makes or breaks any spell or ability.  Although it takes a long time to change the abilities of these classes, it should be relatively quick to research the abilities and document them.  It is the sort of thing people frequently do in character creator modules using base NWN game.  

[Blackguy]

Hey hey, no need to bash Haven mines. Ive had some of the best time on Layo in those mines. *winks at L *

[Creighton]

I've only been playing this mod for a short time; in such a capacity, I felt that perhaps I didn't have the time invested to post a response when I originally read Harloff's post (the fact that it was REALLY late probably affected that decision, as well).  The more I've thought about it, however, has compelled me to say just a few words, many of which have already been said in one way or another.

First off, although I would never be one to deny someone the right to voice their opinion, I was just a mite po'ed at his choice of delivery and his personal attacks.  Although as yet I've had little exposure to the GM's in the game (but if I play my cards right, that'll probably change), the brief experiences I HAVE had have been pleasant, constructive, and accomplished the things I needed accomplished in short order...so I was angered just a touch by his scathing tone.

The most overwhelming thing I noticed reading his rhetoric was this:  He seems to have nothing better to do than gripe about a game he plays...for free, no less.  

I myself work a steady job, have three kids, and write minimally-published short fiction...time, as you can imagine, is precious to me.  Yet I find the time to play on this mod, because I enjoy it.  As a player of PnP games since 1983, it's a foregone conclusion that things aren't always going to be EXACTLY the way you want them...but what in life is?  I feel sorry for Harloff that his life must be in such a state of upheaval that it spills over into his recreation to the point of becoming venomous.

Ah, but the point I was going to make when I began that last paragraph was that time, for many of us, is a limited commodity.

The people who bring us this game use much of theirs so that we may enjoy ourselves.

THAT was the single, most glaring thing that screamed at me from his post:  Leanther, Orth, Pan, and all of the others freely give all of us their time, time that is almost always short, so that we can enjoy ourselves in this world.  Who was he to attack that?  I mean, if he had a beef, there were better ways to handle it...the bottom line is that we enjoy ourselves, and it is these people who work so that we can.

I'm ranting, but what I really wanted to say to L and all of the other people that make all of this possible is thank you; thank you from someone who honestly appreciates all that you do so that I can stay up too late, oversleep, and have a blast the next day at work telling everyone what happened.

I wouldn't change a thing.

[mumbles]

Ive been here for an average time now and enjoyed near enough every moment of it ....

I totally dont agree with how harloff went about his remarks as the GM team have done so much in the time that i have been here .
Ive been lucky whilst ive been here to be able to particpate in most of the GMs quest at one stage or anouther and the amount of time to put one together i image take a good few hours ....
And i thank you for running them for us all to enjoy .

On the point of feats not working and buggy Spells , I think this is just part of Layo as whole THE WORLD IN REAL LIFE IS'NT PERFECT and its just one of those things you put up with ....
On a whole I feel Layo's Good points for me outway the little niggles by miles ....
I Always look forward to getting online and playing ,

So thanks Leanthar and the rest of the GM team , For making Layo what it is

[Nyralotep]

ZV, from now on you're my unoffical spokes voice or some such thing! You said it better than I could have.
  Having been here for a while I can honestly say that there is not much that I can think of that needs immediate improvement. I rememeber Beta 4 and all that was broke in it and I still had tremendous fun playing. When we went to the new version it was like a whole new game and I still enjoy it. I am still in awe of the advances the team has made since I first got here.
  Also I know the GM's and other old timers here who read the forums know this is not the first time this has happened and unfortunately probably won't be the last. I just hope that people take L's advice to heart.
  I'm perfectly content to wait on the team to make the changes in time, I know most of the team likes to play, I wouldn't want it any other way because that ensures that quality content will be implemented.

[Chongo]

lonnarin - 6/20/2006  3:14 PM

I've known well MANY people who've done the Rant&Leave (Idiotnoob, Murat, Bruenor, Highwayman etc) and within a WEEK of leaving, they already send me an IM telling me how much they miss the place.  Well then, don't burn the bloody bridges!

Ahh... but how many come back in such full force, apology, lessons learned running another multi-mod server, and epic feat driven great wisdom XXVIII only comparable to the Dalai Lama?!!!

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18884&posts=8&mid=114571&highlight=&highlightmode=1&action=search#M114571

I am currently working the indentured servitude requisite of finding inner peace.    Actually, this is a wonderful crew to work with and a wonderful community to serve.  I've never been happier in anything related to this game.  I've seen most of what's out there and what the working community can do... and while I don't know it all, this is where to put your money.  It's unfortunate that perspective comes with pains for those less willing to open their eyes.  *points at his own posts since vanished to time*

Don't press submit unless it's something your wife or granddad wouldn't be ashamed to see you writing.