PvP

[wild_down_under]

Hi All,

From my understanding, this server allows PvP. Of course, there are rules in place to regulate the PvP, such as RPing leading to PvP and players agreeing to PvP, or with GM watch PvP. If one party declines PvP, there is no PvP and absolutely no pursuing of PvP or griefing.

However, I was just thinking about the whole process and trying to see if it can be improved. For example, a dark elf (PC) and a dwarf (PC) run into each other in the open field. The RP ensues and potential PvP can happen. Unfortunately, the PC's need to stop the RP for a split second, send tells to each other asking whether PvP is ok, and then use the widget to get the PvP going, if that is what the PC's decide to do.

I was thinking of making a post, where all the players who wish to bypass the "send the tell procedure" sign their names if they want, agreeing to PvP for certain character, if the opportunity presents itself. The reason why I was thinking this is because then you don't have to send a tell in the middle of the RP and lose your sense of the RP. This will allow better immersion of the RP. Obviously, the widget will still be used and if the area is NO PvP and no PvP, such as inside a town.

Same example above, a dark elf (PC) and dwarf (PC) run in to each other. The RP ensues and the PvP widgets are used. No "tell" send to each other about PvP.

What do you all think?

[gilshem ironstone]

I think is a tell is always a good idea for PvP, it goes a long way to eliminate any mis-communications that could take place.  A player may just not be in the mood to go through PvP that day and a tell is a good way to communicate that kind of stuff.  There is also a chance that you might accidentally use the widget and therefore send the wrong message to the other player.  

I personally would vote to keep the process as is.  A good idea though.

[Pibemanden]

Well in theory you do not need to send a tell, you just need to point the wand and then wait for a response. If Someone doesn't want to enter PvP they can decline in a tell, but if they want to fight they can just wave the wand in your direction. No need for OOC conversation really... But I also think that it is a good idea to ensure that everyone is okay with how PvP progresses and such in and OOC manner, so the current system is probably the best we can do..

[cbnicholson]

I've seen pvp on other nwn servers turn very ugly on an ooc level very quickly.  Usually when stealth or magic is involved and the person attacking doesn't want to give any sort of notice to ruin the "surprise".  Of course, I've always believed there should be very good rp reasons for any sort of pvp beyond simple racial hate etc. and a tell is the best way to ensure no hard feelings ooc. The current system Layo employs does a fair job of addressing both issues, but a tell is a nice courtesy.   My two true.

[RollinsCat]

Having PVP'd outside the arena, I think the system works very well as is - the person in question pm'd, verified, and set up a lovely bit of pretentious dialogue for Andrew to poke fun at before Andrew died a swift and heinous death.  The worst part was waiting for my tormentor to get "properly" dressed!  (don't ask).

I agree though that the fluid nature of our reasons for being on; just gathering, only on for a minute to talk to someone, looking for rp, heading to a quest...make that initial tell of "hey, I'd like to pvp" pretty critical.  nothing stopping you from making agreements outside that though, but I'd hesitate to put my name on a list because I'm not sure what I am doing from day to day or how much time I have.

[Dremora]

Clarity as to the PvP.. can you engage someone via hostiling etc if you've used the widget and they start buffing up but havent replied with a widget of their own?
I know that this can be side-stepped if both parties are mature and discuss it in tells naturally and no I am not targetting anyone who I may believe would try something like this. But I like to know what my options are in theory should such an event arise.
I ask this because obviously some characters are not the type to simply hang about while their opponent prepares himself for 'honourable' combat or whatever excuse.. and that when a person begins warding in preparation for combat.. it seems like a pretty clear indicator that they accept PvP.

[Alatriel]

Well, also, I think it's important to say that for etiquette's sake if someone has used a PvP widget on you, if you intend to accept, then accept.  Do not refuse until you've buffed up.  It's poor rp, poor sportsmanship, and just cheesy.  The PvP widget is an ooc thing so your character would not not know.  This also means that if someone has sneaked up on your character and then sends you a PvP notification this is not the moment that your character suddenly casts truesight.

If people can remember to keep character knowledge separate from player knowledge, and to try to be fair on all accounts, the system as it is works fine.

In addition, characters should not provoke a PvP attack and then refuse to follow up on the consequences.  Some things can be settled through rolls or other actions, but sometimes it can't.  

PvP also does NOT have to end in character death if you do not want it to.  (if you want it to, by all means!)

Character PvP does not have to go through mechanical means.  Some disputes can be handled through emotes.  My suggestion, however, is that even if you choose to handle your pvp in this way with agreed upon terms between players, keep the ooc in tells between players and not through the use of // in the open channel.  Using the // makes the entire ordeal much more confusing, not less, and destroys the ic emersion and feeling of the actual encounter.  If multiple people are involved, send multiple tells.  It doesn't really take that much longer to send a couple short tells to more than one person, but it does a lot to keep things in character.

Use what is best for the situation and promotes the story.  That's what RP is about.

Just my 2... maybe 4 cents worth.

[gilshem ironstone]

I quite enjoy emoting PvP as well, for the simple fact that you can be more imaginative with how it plays out.  I had a simple yet effective encounter with a Gel'larian and a dark elf that was done via emotes.  The action was richer and it ended with Gel losing his adamantium dagger he had just bought. Had we used the widget that likely never would have happened.

[miltonyorkcastle]

All the PvP I have done is with the use of emotes. I have never used the widget and never felt the need to do so. And Steel is a confrontational sort of person, so it is not uncommon for him to headlock, stab, punch, or otherwise engage PCs and NPCs in physical confrontations. As Gilshem suggests, the mechanical combat is just too limited, and not nearly as useful for creating storied moments.

[Dremora]

While they are excellant suggestions that I would happily follow and in the case of emote fights have done in the past.
You have sorta side-stepped the question on the 'what if' scenario.

[miltonyorkcastle]

You "can" engage anyone and kill them outright- it will just count toward a total number of unauthorized PVP kills, at the end of which you face a temporary ban for too many PC kills (the system notifies you in the on-screen log about the kill and how many you have left before a ban).

If you PvP widget someone, and that someone starts buffing, but doesn't use the PvP widget, use a tell to ask if they plan to PVP or not, and if so, to please use the widget before he/she buffs. If the person does not respond to the tell, then I would abandon the PvP, even at the expense of whatever RP may have been started. The key to good PvP is player communication. If one sides refuses to communicate, then going further with the PvP only invites trouble, such as misunderstandings and hurt feelings instead of fun.

[Dremora]

Thankyou thats cleared it up for me milty

[geloooo]

Having PVP'd outside the arena, I think the system works very well as is - the person in question pm'd, verified, and set up a lovely bit of pretentious dialogue for Andrew to poke fun at before Andrew died a swift and heinous death.  The worst part was waiting for my tormentor to get "properly" dressed!  (don't ask).

I agree though that the fluid nature of our reasons for being on; just gathering, only on for a minute to talk to someone, looking for rp, heading to a quest...make that initial tell of "hey, I'd like to pvp" pretty critical.  nothing stopping you from making agreements outside that though, but I'd hesitate to put my name on a list because I'm not sure what I am doing from day to day or how much time I have.

*Cackles maniacally*

Yeah, I hated that monologue so much but hey, I had to do it.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Don't worry, Nym.  I'll let you know if I ever plan to kill you with Tyra.  

[Lance Stargazer]

Don't worry Tyra, I'll let you know if I ever plan to kill you ( or something worse ) with Aesthir.

[Dremora]

I still have that screenshot of hostiling SeHky, Keela and you and how you all failed to kill me at level 7 hehe.. don't brag too much.

[Mooneyes]

I still have that screenshot of hostiling SeHky, Keela and you and how you all failed to kill me at level 7 hehe.. don't brag too much.

Hmmm, I think we came pretty darn close.  Before Keela's hair was blown all over the arena floor.

[Dorganath]

The thing we do not want on this server is open PvP for all of the reasons given above and probably more.  Eliminating the direct communication between players would be an avenue toward this. Even players who signed the thread might have an off day and not really want to get into any PvP action at a given moment.

Anyway, I believe the inter-player communication is very important, and it removes any chance of ambiguity or misunderstanding between players as well as keeping someone from applying a loose interpretation of consent when it comes to PvP actions. At least 95% of all problems between players arises from a lack of communication between player where IC matters bleed into OOC attitudes and vice versa. It is so important in a community like this and reducing it all down to what is effectively a yes/no checkbox is not really a great idea in my opinion.

That said, if you and another player have characters who are generally at odds with each other, there's no reason why you couldn't work out a deal between you so that you don't have to exchange formal tells every time.  The key there is that you've communicated and are keeping things open, though of course the option for "Eh, not today if you don't mind" should remain. As has been mentioned above, it doesn't take much to send a quick tell.

From personal experience, I know that people send plenty of tells in the midst of RP about generally unrelated matters, so a quick pair of tells asking for and agreeing to PvP shouldn't really be much of a burden.

[gilshem ironstone]

From personal experience, I know that people send plenty of tells in the midst of RP about generally unrelated matters, so a quick pair of tells asking for and agreeing to PvP shouldn't really be much of a burden.

Generally?  I have had conversations about what is for RL dinner in the midst of RP

[Guardian 452]

I am not a fan of PvP for the simple fact each place I have been that has open PvP has too many people who cant handle it in a mature manor. Most of my experience at this is comming from Everquest 2 PvP servers and its "dual" ability on non PvP servers. More times than not its just people being real jerks win or loose. Most of the time the winners are the worst!

But with that being said I have had an idea for how to make PvP work wihtin a game world. Similar to the arena I always envisioned a game world having areas that you fully acknowledge entering said area(s) you can at any time engage and be engaged in PVP ... no tells, no PvP widgets, no breaking that RP feeling, awkward buff session once you know PvP has been asked for.

For Layo perhaps a few maps at most with differnt themes. Like an old village, maybe a plains area and a nice forest area perhaps. All of which will be tagged as you are about to enter them saying with an OOC statement plain as day something to the effect.

The area(s) ahead are for PvP if your character enters these areas you can engage and be engaged in PvP with no use of the PvP widget or sending of tells prior. If you do not want to PvP in this manor DO NOT ENTER THE AREA AHEAD! Entering these areas is an acknowledement that you do wish to be involved in PvP, and will accept the results in a mature fashion WIN OR LOOSE.

In order for this to work you CANT make said area(s) have any CNR, NPC quests etc... nothing should be here that people will "miss out on" if they do not want to be involved with PvP. Because lets face it, some people want it! Some people are sort of on the fence about it. And some poeple want NOTHING to do with it. So the kind of areas I mentioned above allow for open PvP yet do not hinder people who do not care for PvP.

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