Qualms about WL System Thread

[lonnarin]

As to not sidetrack another thread, I'm starting an entirely new one.  As the original poster of this thread, I would also ask that all "this thread is getting off topic" statements be stricken lest they be uttered by myself exclusively.  Let's keep it clean, so no shots below the belt, no flames and no zingers, just good honest discussion! heheh.    
---------------

@ Acacea

Suggestions have been made regarding the current incarnation of "WL." However, we're not doing anything to change it right now, if it even gets changed.

I can say that it's not a death blow. Instead, it's a recognition that there's more built into being a WL than just character advancement. So if you pursue WL, we sort of assume you want all the other OOC stuff that goes with it. And it's a cool thing to go for. But you can, like Jennara, just focus on IC stuff.

I don't think it's a broken system, just not very well understood or acknowledged... and far too often it's used as a line-definer of whether or not a player can even *try* to do something.  I just don't like when basic suggestions for creating a custom magic item or inventing a new spell are immediately met with "oh well, they were WL's, that's different", as if to say that one NEEDS 21 levels and global recognition to do any of the basic tasks of their profession!  Is there seriously some Juggernaught of a Golem in the Goranite Patent Office that squishes mid level inventors?  "Raaagh!  Thou art too puny to make the Slinky!" *squoosh*  Somebody wants to create a magic staff so their giant can use a "wand", and even suggesting that he make an item geared for his level is met with "not till yer 21st and done a WLCDQ, son..."  A 15th level mage suddenly can't invent a 1st level spell by sole virtue of how many things he's killed.  It no longer matters about the time and effort or RP behind it, just some arbitrary hurdle tossed out there.  Just because Alantha and Bra'acur chose to make spells for their WLCDQ rewards does not mean that every single person below 21st level are forbidden to pursue inventing things in spellcraft!  "Thou hast made the 12th level giant wand, lightning smites thee from the heavens and the splinters thrust into thine eyes!"  I just don't think Lucinda's that crazy.  I think for lesser scoped things like making a +1 vampiric shortsword or a fireball that's blue and uses ice, the WLCDQ quest item reward shouldn't be the ONLY option available.  Maybe if you wanted wings, a better than yew magic harp, a higher level spell, (6-9th) or the like, but it shouldn't arbitrarily replace the regular 1-20th level CDQ.  Those should have level-appropriate quest rewards as well, and have in the past, long ago.

Another qualm with that particular system is that far too often people wind up not playing that character any more, making them World Leaders in seclusion.  It's in the very bylines of the WL description on the forums that dictate one must be ACTIVE in their WL status, yet most of the names I read off the list I haven't seen in months, some in years.  Borrowing examples from FR, Hallister Blackcloak might be almost as powerful as a god, but he is not even close to a World Leader.  King Breunor, Fzoul Chembryl, Queen Allundrial, Volothorp the Bard, Manshoon... they fit the mold more readily.  

As for most of the WL quests in my journal, I only ever got to flag down Ozy and Plenarious to tell their tales.  The others like Legodia's quest or the one to find out about the Lumbral I've had gathering dust for at least 2-3 rl years now... decades in game time!  They either are never logged in at all, or they get annoyed that I ask them about it, even though there's some persistant quest giver sending people to them.  With Ozy gone now, that least only 1/4 of the WL quests currently active, thankfully Plen is very good about holding campfire sessions from time to time and is pretty patient with those asking questions.  Major kudos to Orth on that token.

I can understand RL taking over, having to take a few months off, etc... but when one is a World Leader to the point where there's a persistant quest giver telling people to seek them, and they've been MIA for decades of game time, perhaps then they are no longer considered World Leaders.  When somebody's the high priest of a faith or the highest ranking druid, they owe it to the players of those faiths and classes to step down if they're ever gone for over a decade of game time, in my opinion.    As for these WL quests, we should maybe phase most of the current ones out and make new ones for currently active World Leaders to take over.  It's somewhat overwhealming for a new player to constantly be searching one who is afk for years at a time.  Let the new batch of WLs tell their tales.

[Pen N Popper]

Is this the WL rant thread?  I'm in, then.

The level req is outrageous.  I agree that there needs to be some benchmark that must be passed, but levels in an RP world just rub me the wrong way.  (Yes, some say this is an action RP server but then turn around and say that RP is still king.)  Couldn't there be some other metric?

• 200 quest hours (or some other crazy number)
• 100 hosted player events
• Roleplayer of the month 12 times

Getting to 20th level is a grinding feat for a lot of us.  How much of the thrill is left by that time?  Why aren't the current WLs around in greater numbers?

I want more WLs.  I want to see real players change the world through player actions.  Let them generate plots instead of them following along the admitedly very clever server story arcs.

I'm hoping the MMO does away with the equating of game mechanics power as the foundation for in-character leadership.

[miltonyorkcastle]

*shoves foot in mouth* It's going to be a long day. I see it coming.


I just want to be clear about a few things.

What WL's do/have done is special. The ways in which they have affected the world is unique.

What I said about a character being able to pursue WL-level stuff is true. But by that same token, pulling off that stuff will be just as hard or harder than pulling off a WLDQ. Because its subject to the same approval by the Loremaster and requires similar resources.

Also, when I mentioned the "OOC" stuff associated with WL's, I was really refering to the aspect of a WL that is a desire to promote and support the community. That's why they get the "unstuck-you" wands and such. They have a desire to help out the community through more than character advancement.

[lonnarin]

No worries Milt, you didn't say anything wrong.  Quite the opposite, you and Acacea were getting into an interesting topic and I felt it deserved to be addressed.

I certainly don't discount the accomplishments and effort that the WLs attained, I just would like to see more of them more active, especially those who hold key positions of power within their church or state.  When somebody becomes a high priest, hierophant, warlord or even a mayor, that should be every bit as much a constant job for them as any other, even moreso I think.  Because in these hierarchies there is a constant flux of power brokers attempting the climb the ladder.  If somebody was elected president or even mayor and for any reason IC or OOC where not in that chair for years at a time, let alone decades, they should not expect it to be vacant when they return.  It totally breaks immersion for the young up and comers who are told "ah yes, so and so is your boss, he doesn't play anymore though".  We already have the time investment requirements listed in the description of the WL post, we just need to start enforcing it.  Other than Alantha, Acacea and Plen, I really never get to MEET most of the ones one the list!  And quite a few seem to have retired within the month they attained WL status, never to be heard from again.

As for the wands, I wish the unstickiness wand wasn't wholley dependant on WL status, but rather distributed to every trustworth team member and each and every one of their player characters.  We give it to the WL because its an issue of trust and accomplishment, but in my opinion, that trust is just as equally earned for any person with access to a GM account or database edit, and should be extended for the betterment of the community.  The unsticky wand is a purely OOC tool used to fix a bug, so attaching an RP or status requirement to its distrubution seems irrelevant.  Every person on the team who can be trusted not to abuse their powers OOC should have access to one.  That would increase the likelihood of there being somebody with such a wand online at the time, and decrease the woe of those with sticky feet.

Save the XP wands for just the World Leaders though, they have stories to tell!  Maybe even let the wand give a little bit of XP back to the WL themselves as an incentive to tell the story in the first place!  (within reason of course, like 1/week or so, or maybe 500xp per listener each time they tell the story and zap them with that quest specific wand)  And somebody please give Storold a WL info quest, as he's the best WL I know who dedicated time and effort into talking to the players, RPing, and is still very active in world events.  Very patient and respectful to the new players on the server as well.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I agree wholeheartedly and energetically with the first post.

Less energy on the latter two, as, while I totally agree, they didn't bring up my biggest thing:

Creation, accomplishment, prestige. These things can -and ARE!- gained by characters below level 21. They're just not so nifty as what's gained by those above... Like with everything.

[Gulnyr]

First, just to clarify, it's weird to see Jennara as the example of an all-IC type of not-quite WL since I was approved to try a WLDQ well over a year ago.  In other words, it's not like that on purpose; there have just been complications that keep pushing the attempt back.  Still, applied is not WL, so maybe she's a good example of what can be accomplished even without special quests.  She's never even had a personal CDQ.

Second, just to touch on a potential difficulty regarding creation of special items, there is only so much palette space and only so many people to get things working properly.  If everyone wanted a special gizmo or a new spell or whatever, a lot of people would be out of luck since the things wouldn't fit.  Even if every requested item would fit, there would likely be complaints as update after update goes by without requested whatevers being included due to the backlog of requests.  How long have some WL's had to wait for their special rewards?  That wouldn't get better if there were many more things to make and include.  It's been made clear that there are priorities for the team, and new stuff for this version of Layonara isn't one of the high ones.  No one's going to abandon some other project to start a make-everyone-a-doodad factory, y'know?  

So, yeah, it's screwy from an IC viewpoint that any given competent character can't make something new (though that's really more of a deficiency in the crafting system than in the WL system), but the successful WLDQ completion requirement gives a definite OOC gauge that effectively limits the amount of stuff that needs to be made.

[akata]

You can never make a system that is flawless, if you change the requirement from level 20 to say pnp's suggestion to being role-player of the month 12 times. Sure but what if I then play doing a time where xx numbers of really good role-players are on? Ups now my chance is less then the person that plays doing a time where only 2-4 people are on.
yes there is a few Hardcore reg's you need to meet (member 12 months, character level 20 etc etc) but by far the most important requirement is this

"The character must have worldly accomplishments. A few things that would count are: forming organizations that last and make a difference to players or other organizations, running kingdoms or being at a high level of royalty that is significant, being actively involved on quests and making a difference on quests in ways other than combat, actively assisting or fund raising in a significant way for the under privileged nations, towns, cities, or NPC's, or receiving a significant in-game title or rank. We are not basing World Leader status on combat and action, everybody does this when they are a hero-that is not what we are after when it comes to being approved for a WLDQ and in order to become a World Leader."

As I see it the system is as fair as it can be, everyone need to meet the same requirements. Once the person believe they forfilled them and the person inform the team, it's talked over and either get approved or denied based on their own actions.


Lot of what I would call the old WL's are not active right now, and there are rules saying you need to do xx to keep your status I will just like to point part of it out

"If the World Leader player leaves the community for a period of more than 45 days their status of World Leader will be removed. The exception to this may be if the player lets the GM Team know he or she is leaving and for how long-but it would depend on the reason or motive for leaving."

it could be that the reason for leaving for a longer period was personal and not something they wish to share with the community, or they're simple busy in their rl and told the team, some of them left like Talan and Lore haven't yet been updated. Or busy making the new MMO as some of them are.

[Leanthar]

"....As for the wands, I wish the unstickiness wand wasn't wholley dependant on WL status, but rather distributed to every trustworth team member and each and every one of their player characters. We give it to the WL because its an issue of trust and accomplishment, but in my opinion, that trust is just as equally earned for any person with access to a GM account or database edit, and should be extended for the betterment of the community. The unsticky wand is a purely OOC tool used to fix a bug, so attaching an RP or status requirement to its distrubution seems irrelevant. Every person on the team who can be trusted not to abuse their powers OOC should have access to one....."
 
 Fair enough and agreed on your points. We will get that fixed when we get some time (and can fit it in with an update). This is one of those things we have discussed (myself and dorganath for instance) and we just have not gotten to it or I haven't given the final okay...my fault.
 
 "....Save the XP wands for just the World Leaders though, they have stories to tell! Maybe even let the wand give a little bit of XP back to the WL themselves as an incentive to tell the story in the first place! (within reason of course, like 1/week or so, or maybe 500xp per listener each time they tell the story and zap them with that quest specific wand)...."
 
 Noted. We have talked about this a few times, well I have with a few others. We just haven't implemented it for various reasons (time, resources, and a final decision..by me I suppose)...one of those things I guess. You have no idea how much time has been spent on this system and it still isn't "right" (clearly)....I have no idea how much more time I can spend on something that just keeps getting slammed left and right.
 
 "....And somebody please give Storold a WL info quest, as he's the best WL I know who dedicated time and effort into talking to the players, RPing, and is still very active in world events. Very patient and respectful to the new players on the server as well....."
 
 Yep, agreed wholeheartedly. The real issue is that the entire system we coded for that stuff just didn't work (heck look up at the other posts ranting about absence). This one is my fault I suppose as I just have not seen the system working and I didn't want us spending time on it when we have so much on our plate...so very much. Nothing against Storold that is for darn sure.
 
 As for removing characters/players from the WL list... yep it needs to be done and it will be done real soon. As I stated in the GM forum the other day (funny how the same discussions start in the player and gm forums at nearly the same time....) this is my fault. Every time I go to remove players from the list it brings back all that they have done for the community over the years (quite often during difficult times for the team, community, world and me)...so yeah, it gets personal to me and it gets difficult at times. Right or wrong (and clearly most think it is wrong), that is just how it has been. I will try to cut that raw cord and just make the decision to forge ahead in the future.

[Acacea]

To comment on the PC vet quests though, they are not really "WL" quests...if you look at most of them, few have anything to do with that character's epics...most were not even epic at the time they were put in. These are relics from a time when there was a smaller community and obviously a completely different generation in action. To put it into perspective, Triba's story is hard to come by - I was considering asking to have a few switched to newer characters...Acacea has told both Eon's (but Plen is easier to find as mentioned) and the Broken Forest one among others, but cannot complete the quest for anyone, for example. Anyway, Broken Forest is hard to come by...but it was pre-epic. Chances are no one even knows what the heck Triba's epic was...anyone? Anyone? Probably not unless they are old enough to have gone on it.

In the WL thingie thing it says that WLs are entitled to have a little "Go-to" PC quest like that put in for them IF they write up the stuff for it. So yes, the ones in game are old old old, but those players are for the most part gone gone gone. This really isn't the thread for "how to make better connections between older generations and newer ones" but I think that issue did contribute to the problem of older WLs disappearing in the new campaign. Heck, some people waved goodbye to them happily and scribbled them out, so no surprise there. It's not their fault though that when they faded out for feeling totally out of place that their quests weren't taken out or updated. Triba's CDQ to fix the Broken Forest was years ago when she was all around, had big names on it and was on every single plot quest and in game whenever her player wasn't DMing later.

Then a relatively unknown epic with unknown reward skipped to plot plot plot and then... plot over, life mission ended, should she sit around on a bench waiting for people to ask her about the cdq from 40 years ago? It's really not that urgent anymore, OOC or IC. Shadow is gone, the bridges were completed, the little pocket of undead from Selian was blown up. How likely is it that her mother is STILL telling people to go hunt her down? And whenever the PC was actually in game doing stuff, hanging out, telling new stories, everyone comes bugging you wanting nothing but the ancient and outdated forest story, it just starts to suck. Especially if you are around and you DON'T tell it to someone who wants it right then because you're, hey! Actually interacting with people... whole threads have started complaining that PC vets were there and wouldn't give them their stories so that they could complete their quests. Gah.

So I hope you see what I am getting at there... there are flaws in the system but I would consider "PC quests" to be an entirely different subject, being left over from a long LONG time ago. Athus had a PC quest...WAY before the soul mother...ask him about Vanavar? Anyone know why? Good luck with that! And as far as I know, Kasha never had her epic, either. Separate issues, I think.

Regarding item creation and spell invention, I think that if you managed to do it on things like plot quests, heavily involved series, etc, you might get lucky if it warranted a quest reward. They're not going to do CDQs to get special items and spells though, because the overhead would be insane, not to mention the balance craziness and module limitations. For the most part we just invent stuff and roleplay it - why not? Acacea made enchanted windchimes. I'm not sure there weren't any before her, and they certainly don't need to be a furniture item Spells at least we may attempt at any time in quest. We might not have an instant cast, and we can't really share it, but we can say "I want to do this" and work on it.

[Gulnyr]

As for removing characters/players from the WL list... yep it needs to be done and it will be done real soon. As I stated in the GM forum the other day (funny how the same discussions start in the player and gm forums at nearly the same time....) this is my fault. Every time I go to remove players from the list it brings back all that they have done for the community over the years (quite often during difficult times for the team, community, world and me)...so yeah, it gets personal to me and it gets difficult at times. Right or wrong (and clearly most think it is wrong), that is just how it has been. I will try to cut that raw cord and just make the decision to forge ahead in the future.

I rarely think about this, but the only thing about it that bothers me is that there's a rule about inactivity that isn't enforced.  Making rules and laws that can't or won't be put into use just rubs me the wrong way somehow.  Maybe I'm weird...

Anyway, I don't really mind one way or the other if inactive WL's stay on the list or not, but I do think rules should be either enforced or rescinded.  It's your world, and if you don't want to remove the inactive WL's from WL status, just unwrite the rule, y'know?  It's cool to have a list of the characters that made a difference somehow, though, so maybe compromise and remove them from WL status but create some sort of 'historical figures' list, and maybe let those characters regain WL status if they are active in the world for X amount of time in the future.  Don't think of it as cutting them loose to be forgotten, but as a chance to immortalize their names in the histories of Layonara.

[Dorganath]

A few directed responses, as I think they bear clarification and response.

I don't think it's a broken system, just not very well understood or acknowledged... and far too often it's used as a line-definer of whether or not a player can even *try* to do something...(bulk deleted for brevity)...  Maybe if you wanted wings, a better than yew magic harp, a higher level spell, (6-9th) or the like, but it shouldn't arbitrarily replace the regular 1-20th level CDQ.  Those should have level-appropriate quest rewards as well, and have in the past, long ago.

99% of this is the fact that NWN imposes too many restrictions on what can be done easily.  As has been commented, if every Level X mage wanted to invent a spell, NWN just doesn't have a way for them to do that in-game, and thus requires development effort, balancing to fit into the world, etc.  Same goes for items.  Same goes for spell effects, such as the "iceball" example that's blue instead of red.  It's even more true in the latter case because that requires a whole new explosion VFX to be created.  That's artwork...that's a HAK change...that doesn't just happen. It takes a non-trivial amount of development effort.

As such, I'm sure you can see why we don't just say "OK! Let's do it" every time someone has a neat idea like these (and they are neat).  If this was a pen-and-paper game, with one group and one GM, sure...we can create anything with a roll of the dice.  The systems we have available, however, simply do not permit it with anything resembling ease.

And so, as a result, any special development efforts for PCs were reserved for those characters (and players) who have achieved a particular level of accomplishment. I think it's very realistic that we would set that bar at the "epic" threshold, along with a few other requirements.

I would absolutely love to have a system that let people make spells and items out of bits and pieces, making something truly new and unique that can be repeated if someone else does the same thing.  But we can't in NWN.

And to comment on a specific part of the above...

Somebody wants to create a magic staff so their giant can use a "wand", and even suggesting that he make an item geared for his level is met with "not till yer 21st and done a WLCDQ, son..."

This is not entirely an accurate portrayal of the discussion.  It had to do with opening up all wands to half-giants and any other "large" classified creatures.  Simply put, NWN won't let them equip them, and therefore, they cannot use them.  It's an unfortunate mechanical limitation, but it's something we have to deal with in NWN.  There's not just one magic wand, there's whole bunch of them, meaning we have to take and make duplicates of every wand in game with a "staff" equivalent.  In addition, every crafting recipe for making wands now has to be duplicated to make a staff-sized equivalent.  These are again non-trivial activities.

I sympathize with large creatures who can't use things due to NWN limitations, and I personally implemented the large-sized crafting tools so that half-giants could engage in certain crafts. But that was only a small number of tools and no other changes were needed.  

Making "wands" for half-giants is unfortunately a matter of manpower and effort, both of which are in short supply.

Another qualm with that particular system is that far too often people wind up not playing that character any more, making them World Leaders in seclusion.  It's in the very bylines of the WL description on the forums that dictate one must be ACTIVE in their WL status, yet most of the names I read off the list I haven't seen in months, some in years.  Borrowing examples from FR, Hallister Blackcloak might be almost as powerful as a god, but he is not even close to a World Leader.  King Breunor, Fzoul Chembryl, Queen Allundrial, Volothorp the Bard, Manshoon... they fit the mold more readily.

Yep!  And this is a significant problem in that they stop playing or leave the world.  And yep, the GM Team has been lax in removing their names, if for no other reason than it is somewhat sad to see these characters, who truly made an impact in the world and were fixtures and felt so completely part of the world just fade away to nothingness after all that time and effort. Call it nostalgia. Call it guilt...because in some ways, it's also the GM Team's fault that WLs/Epics weren't as well supported as they should have been.

As for most of the WL quests in my journal, I only ever got to flag down Ozy and Plenarious to tell their tales.  The others like Legodia's quest or the one to find out about the Lumbral I've had gathering dust for at least 2-3 rl years now... decades in game time!  They either are never logged in at all, or they get annoyed that I ask them about it, even though there's some persistant quest giver sending people to them.  With Ozy gone now, that least only 1/4 of the WL quests currently active, thankfully Plen is very good about holding campfire sessions from time to time and is pretty patient with those asking questions.  Major kudos to Orth on that token.

This was a good idea that simply didn't work out the way it was intended.  It became a chore, rather than an opportunity for RP.  People would send tells from across the server whenever one of these people logged in, wanting to hear these tales.  And then they'd either want the token to get their XP (and leave without hearing the story) or the people wanting to hear the story continued to RP things irrelevant to the story, thus disrupting the character telling the story and just making it frustrating for them and the people genuinely trying to listen.

It's somewhat overwhealming for a new player to constantly be searching one who is afk for years at a time. Let the new batch of WLs tell their tales.

If I figure out a quick and easy way, I'll remove these quests from everyone's journal and from the NPCs who give them.

Is this the WL rant thread?  I'm in, then.

The level req is outrageous.  I agree that there needs to be some benchmark that must be passed, but levels in an RP world just rub me the wrong way.  (Yes, some say this is an action RP server but then turn around and say that RP is still king.)  Couldn't there be some other metric?

• 200 quest hours (or some other crazy number)
• 100 hosted player events
• Roleplayer of the month 12 times

Getting to 20th level is a grinding feat for a lot of us.  How much of the thrill is left by that time?  Why aren't the current WLs around in greater numbers?

If getting to 20th is a "grinding feat" then you're not in the right frame of mind to become a WL.  I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I firmly believe if that's your perspective, then being a WL is not for you.  

To use myself as an example, it took me about 15-16 months to get to 20th level, and another 15-16 months before my WLDQ was completed.  At no point did I see it as a "grind".  In no time was I in a hurry to reach some level of achievement or get a quest done so my character could get some fancy reward. And I never lost the thrill or cared much about the XP.  My WL character's last level was almost entirely XP granted for RPing at random times and I think 2...maybe 3 quests, with probably less than 1% of it from combat.  That's it. And every single moment was thrilling, whether I got XP out of it or not.

Your first two suggestions reward people who have no other qualifications except for lots of playing time.  Does that make them special?  Nope.  It just means they have lots of free time. Special is in what they accomplish in that time, and as players, how they conduct themselves.  Remember that WL is an IC accomplishment (though not called as such) and an OOC title, both generally bearing responsibilities.

12 "RPer of the Month" awards...by whose measure?  Popular vote?  GM Team?  If the former, then we'd be dilluting what a WL is by making a a popularity contest.  If the latter, then guess what?  It's very much similar to what we require now.  I'll explain that in a moment.  Lastly though, this would actually reduce the numbers of WLs since there can only be one "RPer of the Month" every month.

Anyway, taking the 12-month thing and the grinding thing...

Anyone who "grinds" to 20th is pretty much assured to not qualify as a WL, at least not when they make 20th.  To qualify, 20th level must be attained, but also there must be 12 months of playing that character consistently, participation in the community, in quests, being a general  positive influence during this time and so forth.  So when the GM Team looks at WL applicants, we look back at these factors

To put it another way, the path to WL is a long one, but it's got lots of nice scenery.  Those who count the steps or run along the path will never reach the end.  Those who stop and look around, smell the flowers, talk to the locals and take their time are who we'll say "Yes, they are WL material."

I want more WLs.  I want to see real players change the world through player actions.  Let them generate plots instead of them following along the admitedly very clever server story arcs.

People can ask to "generate plots" in the campaign now by seeking to investigate or do things that might interest them. There's no guarantee, but you never know. Participation in scheduled plot quests is not the only way to participate in the campaign.

But ultimately, we're down to the matter of man-power and how quickly we can make meaningful changes in-game.  It's easy to want these things, and yeah, they'd be great, but the reasons why we don't as often as we or anyone else would like has nothing to do with WLs or WL status.

One last comment on the "Unstick" wand as it's been called...

Leanthar and I have talked about this a few times.  Every time we decided not to just hand it out to alternate characters of WLs or non-WL characters of GMs.  It never was about trust, simply about their intent and keeping the status of WL unique and special.  

From a technical standpoint, the WL wands were designed to function only for WLs on purpose.  In the hands of a non-WL, they simply don't work. While this is not an impossible barrier to overcome, it does take some reworking and some means to still limit their use.  So this is possible, but it's low on the priority scale

I hope my comments have clarified some things. If not...ask.

[Acacea]

Their deeds aren't really "undone." It actually seems like it creates a bit of a headache to go in and remove them from lists and take back their stuff...for someone that isn't even in game, as that's the problem in the first place. Like if Tak got some crazy cool hammer gifted to him from a god, and he didn't log on for 20 years, came back to fulfill the prophecy of forging the blade of shadows, and then retired, does it matter if he still has a crazy cool hammer gifted to him from a god? He's not using it, or else he would be allowed to keep it, you know what I mean? It would just be hanging on some wall somewhere.

I don't know about the list. I think maybe the LORE list should probably be updated, but the characters themselves left alone, if only for more organization and less confusion when you are looking for them. I was making a list of all the WLs and what they were known for, and I would include all of them, including the old ones, in such a list... but maybe not the "index" so that new players don't look and go "why is that person a WL but hasn't logged on in a year?"

So you know. Kind of preserve accomplishments, but clear up clutter.

(Edit: This was typed under L's and Gulnyr's, but Dorg was typing a really long post between!)

[Dorganath]

I don't know about the list. I think maybe the LORE list should probably be updated, but the characters themselves left alone, if only for more organization and less confusion when you are looking for them. I was making a list of all the WLs and what they were known for, and I would include all of them, including the old ones, in such a list... but maybe not the "index" so that new players don't look and go "why is that person a WL but hasn't logged on in a year?")

As an FYI...

The LORE list is auto-updated based on a database flag that says "This character is a WL".  So to do what you suggest means going back to a manual update system again in some way or the other.

[lonnarin]

I think a good compromise for not wanting to see WLs go for sentimental reasons would be to make a good dividing line between WL status and organizational position.  I do think that being famous for one's deeds should stick for life, maybe even the tale will grow beyond the legend.  But its purely when one is in a hierarchy of an organization, that it needs to be vacated and cycled frequently.  Defender of Dorand Bjornigar has never once been able to meet Takarth Blacklung, leader of his Church to report for duty, and I made him 4 years ago.  That's approaching half a century of absentee rule in game time.  With nobody to turn to for guidance, this stifles the character advancement for an entire clergy, and the plot of the campaign.

World Leaders regardless of time absent should be included in the Handbook in a Who's Who section like the Forgotten Realms Handbook has for it's major characters, and their deeds annotated in the timeline.  Those tales of legendary deeds would never go away for many generations, and make for some fun reading.  The wide area item drops should stay too in their memory, as each one is a unique vintage piece of Layo Lore that no other server has.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

... but create some sort of 'historical figures' list, and maybe let those characters regain WL status if they are active in the world for X amount of time in the future.  Don't think of it as cutting them loose to be forgotten, but as a chance to immortalize their names in the histories of Layonara.

I like this idea of a historical figures list.  

There could be a WL list so that OOC people know who is active and they can go to for help ect. and a historical figures list, so we all know who has gone before us, and they are not forgotten.

[Leanthar]

"....I think a good compromise for not wanting to see WLs go for sentimental reasons would be to make a good dividing line between WL status and organizational position. I do think that being famous for one's deeds should stick for life, maybe even the tale will grow beyond the legend. But its purely when one is in a hierarchy of an organization, that it needs to be vacated and cycled frequently. Defender of Dorand Bjornigar has never once been able to meet Takarth Blacklung, leader of his Church to report for duty, and I made him 4 years ago. That's approaching half a century of absentee rule in game time. With nobody to turn to for guidance, this stifles the character advancement for an entire clergy, and the plot of the campaign...."
 
 During the past several years (yes, years) this is one of those things I have
 considered multiple times and at length. But where is the "line"? Every persons line is different, period. The team can not draw a line in the sand because this sort of WL thing is already vague enough...and we can CLEARLY see where "lines" lead us in communities. Not a pretty picture usually.
 
 "....World Leaders regardless of time absent should be included in the Handbook in a Who's Who section like the Forgotten Realms Handbook has for it's major characters, and their deeds annotated in the timeline. Those tales of legendary deeds would never go away for many generations, and make for some fun reading. The wide area item drops should stay too in their memory, as each one is a unique vintage piece of Layo Lore that no other server has....."
 
 I so very much agree on this and it was my intention when I brought the world online 7 years ago, much less when I talked about the MMO and books about a year ago. Sadly, this is impossible. To sale a book you need agreements in place and clearly that didn't work too well a year ago. I so wanted to include ALL characters and their stories but sadly about 50% of the players refused to sign and indeed left the world (many flaming out). When I saw this happen, even with trying to include them in the lore and history of the world I decided I would not be doing it again...at least not
 without other agreements in place. It sucks, that is all I can say...it sucks.
 But alas, there is not a thing I can do about that. Sure, it is just a character name and sure it is just an online story...but I am not in any way willing to sacrafice the teams name, family, or money (much less my family) to "try" and do this without an issue. This very thing you posted above was absolutely the most eye-opening experience (and most disappointing) I have had so far with Layonara.

[Acacea]

There could be a WL list so that OOC people know who is active and they can go to for help ect. and a historical figures list, so we all know who has gone before us, and they are not forgotten.

I think in a way we sort of already have that accidentally too, heh. Like you have several people from the older generation that when the plot ended, suddenly found themselves historical figures when maybe they wanted to be WLs, or vice versa. =X Ie, the "outlived my story" or "closed book" syndrome Congratulations! Your life's work is accomplished! You get universal bitterness for starving the world, a cool reward you will never want to use because all the NPCs hate you and all your stories are irrelevant to the next generation unless it gives XP!

That sounds mean, but it wasn't just one person at the finales that told me they wished their characters had permed after all, just so they wouldn't be the old, unnecessary fifth wheels in a new plot, rotting on a bench while people ask them about Vanavar or whatever Better to die with a bang that everyone will lovingly remember you for than to outlive your legend and be of little use! I was thinking back when Filatus was talking about it being similar to the reasons he shelved Daeron about a quest that tugged at the older Dragoncalled to help out, and I honestly don't care if they're lore erased or what, just to give them the opportunity to a) be of use somehow and b) give them an ending if they wanted it.

It sounds kind of contrived, and I guess it would be, but the squelched and oppressed bard in me looks at the list and sees a lot of dusty forgotten endings that wish they'd had a chance for a conclusion worthy of the stories they made. Yeah I know, some quit, some were bitter, some were mean, but call me TN instead of LG - there were a lot of different sides to stuff that went down. No, they should not be given precedence over the new stories being made, which can be just as important - ie you can't just have all these hard working questers of the current plot be told that suddenly they need to be saved by the last generation, but an opportunity to contribute that perhaps also offered an end, would be kind of cool. But I'm rambling... Acacea would stay, but I know a lot of people that left a long time ago, especially the retconned ones, that wish they had a way to tie off their stories. It would be nice to see everyone brought back in for something, even if it was just one thing. Screenshot worthy for sure, if nothing else. It's just kind of hard because what GM wants to plan all that for some stuff they don't even know or care about? I'd almost want to apply myself just to try and get one approved =X

Amusingly enough though, despite all the criticisms of the system, I actually think rather than "not a good system" it's more of a problem of being a bit too sophisticated for NWN's resources. It has a lot of potential, but there is a lot of confusion over the roles of WLs and how they can accomplish them... for example, sometimes a few are told they should be mixing more, other levels, go on quests, etc. But then you become the other problem of "follow the epic" remember that? Solving everyone's problems? So you try to hang out and shout advice and you're "not doing anything," remember that one? Plus you don't play it TOO normal, right?

So hey, teachers, information sources, guides, that's a good role! PCs come to those sorts all the time, but then the WLs don't have the information to give them. Surely a leader of your faith is a good person to go to about x info, right? Butttt they will probably not have it. They may or may not be able to get it from a DM if they ask, but they certainly won't know it ahead of time, because who has time for that?

Likewise, we have a big scale in our world - it doesn't matter if someone was the queen of Mistone, that's just a part of the West server. In the future when everything is smaller scaled at first and far more detailed, there will be a lot more meaning in regional accomplishments... In a similar light, the whole invention thing seems stifled and unfair here, but would be pretty cool as an automated system which we just can't do in NWN - even in a new game it would be hard to pull off well. Create and share, there is nothing wrong with that... but NWN resources...

So I think for all that still feel the sadness of leaving NWN, should at least think of the opportunities we could have in the future, regardless of how far in the future that is... our ideals have just massively outgrown this venue, and what we've got right now is maybe not THE best we can get, but close. I think the best thing we could really do for it is just try to integrate them more on World NPC terms than frontlining PC terms. Ie don't send a WL to accompany the goblin mission given by an NPC. That's not where they belong. Make a WL give the goblin mission, instead, or if there are none that fit the bill, one that has required information, or whatever... anything that lets them help people without doing things for them and not look like idiots when they're asked about what's going on and never get the memo It's totally fine to make them have to ask to find out, but it seems like a toss-up as to whether or not they'll actually be of use, and always a surprise if they claim they have influence in x area, even if influence was why they became a WL in the first place...

Clarify: I don't think they should know everything, or that their skills/knowledge should always be key or even useful. Or that they should never be given the opportunity to join in and do stuff. But being able to help without doing it for people should surely happen at least once in a WL's life. Look at how many times Moraken is visited, right? (Edit - the other side to this is of course that if they are better supported, they also have to give better support. Taking initiative themselves and chasing after things may get them a label for pestering, but at least it is not sitting around waiting for someone to do something for them, which is just rude. They need to involve themselves in order for GMs to use their involvement.)

I know, I'm rambling, it's just kind of a complicated subject when viewed from more than one angle. I kind of think of Acacea as one of the people who accidentally outlived their stories, because of all the story rearranging and all that, and being caught between generations - she wasn't part of the huge older generation that was the main plot heroes, but she caught the tail end of it and almost got shut in the book with them. The stories that were most important to her were de-emphasized and retconned, some rewritten to leave her completely out of them. In the end though, I stayed with her instead of switching, because despite the occasional mopiness, outliving stories suits Acacea in a lot of ways. She's practically MPD; it is perfectly acceptable for the character to be known as a sometimes fey-like eccentric halfling with a magic song who has a queer fascination with keys and likes to play pretend, and fits much more with her than someone else who people don't recognize and then go "Are you kidding me??" when told their name. Some people have a huge amount of historical weight on them when they enter the room, to the point where they can never live up to their legends. Others are just whatever they are at the moment, with glimpses leaking out now and again of what else they have been. I've found it is more appropriate for mine to be the latter, where others are the former with BIG NAMES.

[twidget658]

As for removing characters/players from the WL list... yep it needs to be done and it will be done real soon. As I stated in the GM forum the other day (funny how the same discussions start in the player and gm forums at nearly the same time....) this is my fault. Every time I go to remove players from the list it brings back all that they have done for the community over the years (quite often during difficult times for the team, community, world and me)...so yeah, it gets personal to me and it gets difficult at times. Right or wrong (and clearly most think it is wrong), that is just how it has been. I will try to cut that raw cord and just make the decision to forge ahead in the future.

 
 
 Make a different list. "Active" and "Archived". "Past and Present". "Come and Gone" and "Came and Here". Whatever you want to call it. It still gives the past WL's the recognition that they deserve while still presents an accurate list of the ones that are still playing.

[Acacea]

Another long and kind of rambly post, but I was re-reading one of Lonnarin's posts about stifling the advancement of political and clergy positions by having them occupied by old relics, and because it is an important subject felt the need to comment (how often have you heard that line, right!) that just because they were the last ones to hold the position, doesn't mean they will hold it forever. There is no rule that they keep it even if they do log in every once and awhile. Ta'k may be a dwarf in legend, but he was still a very old human. There is no reason at all not to have a new Baron, even though Ta'karsh will always be The Baron Blacklung of Lar. (Yes, Lar. Doesn't it feel weird to associate Ta'k with "Lyn" ? ) That doesn't mean he has the position forever. You don't even have to cut him out of it - you could say he appointed the next, maybe it ended up being his daughter, whatever! But no one claims they stay forever in a position of political importance.

Enzo is pretty long in the tooth as well... how long will he be commander of the wood? Out of simple respect I seriously doubt anyone is scheming to dump him, but should say, Rodlin continue to be played and be active in the world, I don't see why he could not gain that position himself. Would he want to, that is a different story, but could he, why not? It wouldn't be a matter of chasing out the old, either - it would be cool if Enzo could actually be a part of it himself, that would be a really nice way to keep things moving and make it a big event instead of tossing out a geezer. Maybe no one will get that far and it won't be an issue, it's just important not to think "Why start, the end is blocked already."

Others will keep them because they hold unique positions - Eldarwen may never log in again, but she is the only one to hold her position. If she is gone, so is that. There is a full line of clergy to move up in, all the way up to Warder of the Loom perhaps if someone so desired, or at least you could have while the lore was still in place - obviously it is in a sort of limbo at present, so it would need to translate to the new. There are also things tied to faith that have no need to be in the clergy itself, as well, even things that can be made up entirely for someone. I wanted Acacea to be Lucinda's familiar, but that spot is already taken, too! Someday she will have to work things out with Chrysalias, who unfortunately is occupying the spot.

Likewise, Reventage, even though her position will never go down in any official books, will be the last Harper of Ilsare - it is a position that is kept until death, anyway, though admittedly much more romantically than that in story-form. It was both within and without of the clergy itself - a very unique and high position, but one that was not within any actual progression lines of the church itself. You could call it the top, but it's also alone.

Others are more difficult - should active PCs actually ever be able to be the Hierophant of the druidic order? I mean think about the scope of that for a minute. Doesn't it sort of almost demand an NPC-like figure? The heck are you going to do with all that power and influence? Bash some goblins? Logging in once a year to make a wise appearance at random around the world is almost the best you can do, there. It's almost as bad as playing one of the T'ol. Do you really want everyone hanging around Hlint as the King of Dregar or Hierophant of the entire druidic order? =X

Others are even moved on in-game, despite having no in-game presence. Yashilla for example is by far the most precarious of the Tides in Mist's clergy - maybe she could have done a lot more, and her existence is not erased, but should someone get that far they may very well successfully take her place - PC or NPC, should the need arise.

Others actually hold no political positions at all, and are known more for what they did than what they were or held. What is there to take from Triba, for example? The most you can do there is catch a glimpse of her when she comes out of the desert long enough to aid some group in something that concerns pieces of her past and then wave goodbye again.

So, I think the thing I am getting at here is that while it may seem that some inactive WLs are clogging up the progression drain, that's actually just an illusion. If one is holding a coveted place, by all means - kick them out. Until they are directly challenged, however, there's little need to cause a stir about it unless it's needed for a plot, where an NPC can then start working on it. Or, if it's a more respected and kindly position, even RP that the former holder chose the next or some such. A lot of bitterness has come about now and then because x person has y position and somebody doesn't like it or feels there's nowhere to go or whatever, or all the best things have been taken. Why? Sometimes you have to shove someone off the ladder to get where you want to go. You do it with NPCs all the time! Just be warned that stepping into an NPC role is sometimes not all that great.

Regarding some character being around for x amount of time and never meeting the leader of their faith, well, that gets into "how big of a role should adventurers be able to attain?" because when you think about it, how many times have you met the Pope in your travels? Popes come and Popes go, but chances are unless you're Peter Griffin you're not going to bring one home to give you family advice. So while it is great to encounter them, at times it's also kind of strange - which brings up the whole discussion of what sort of positions should be attainable and what you need to do to keep them. It'd be nice if you could travel to their area and hear them sermonize to legions every now and then, though!

So you know... inactive = bad, and there are plenty of things even players of NPC roles could do in the community even if it's weird to go out adventuring, but at the same time, ones absent from the community do not hold roles locked to their names forever. Feel free to move up, just don't be a jerk about it just because they aren't around to defend themselves... let them keep their reputation even when you're taking their place. Besides, that only adds to your reputation.

[Lynn1020]

I was thinking about this today...

Who are all of the active World Leaders right now?