quest pet peeve

[jrizz]

I was reading one of the new GMs intros and it brought something to mind for me. Resting is very controlled on quests due the time lost issue and what could be happening while the party rests. I understand this and agree with it wholly. But in the same sense and for the same reasons the trend on many quests of over questioning NPCs, excessive planning sessions, and standing around talking for what sometimes is many IG days needs to also be taken into account. If something is happening that needs a group of heros to stop it and that group cant get past a puzzle or come up with a plan in short order then they should miss the mark. It is the same thinking as why resting needs to be controlled on quests "time is of the essence". Thoughts from anyone?

[Rowana]

In my personal opinion, and I think the reason that we have so many different kinds of GMs: To each their own. If you don't like it, don't go. However if you CHOOSE to be on a quest where a GM controls things like when you rest, if you run, etc, you should respect it.

~row

[ycleption]

I think most DMs who choose to heavily restrict resting do it because the way resting work mechanically, the DM doesn't have time to throw interesting things at you if they don't know when you're resting, and many players choose to rest for the mechanical benefits, when there's no way their characters would choose to rest in that time and place. And yes, the fact hat it only takes a few second OOC when it should take more time IG is also a concern, depending on the nature of the quest...

Talking to NPC's, planning, etc. is the opposite problem: more time passes IG than the actual conversation would take, so if anything DMs should make allowance and cut players some slack on time dependent quests...

[jrizz]

This post was not about the resting thing. I quote myself "I understand this and agree with it wholly." So back on track then. Yeah I understand that there is a temporal issue. But I am not sure I agree that:

more time passes IG than the actual conversation would take

Yes here needs to be a little time bending but a text based conversation does not take 1000% longer then a real time one. A conversation with a NPC that would take say 10 mins real time should not take more then 30 mins text time. And this is not a GM issue I am raising it is a player issue. It is just that the GMs let us get away with it way too much.

[LynnJuniper]

Once I had a group get into an argument and discuss what they were going to do for two hours. I didn't realize how boring this could be until I DMed for it. Yawn. I think I left, went out, went to Starbucks, got coffee, and came back and they were still arguing the same point they were when I had left with new developments.
It was at that point I handed them their XP , said thank you very much you can do this on your own time ____ is the date we'll be running again.

So my own personal opinion: Decisions, especially on long running quests should be talked about in between quests. Time bubble or not. It saves DM time and patience.

[ycleption]

Sorry if I wasn't clear there... what I meant was that if a conversation takes half an hour of OOC time, 7.5 hours have passed in game. Clearly, however a conversation doesn't actually take that many hours.
Depending on what kind of quest it is, this may or may not matter, and things like travel (which has the opposite effect) may balance this out. I have been on quests where players trying to decide a course of action has disproportionately delayed the quest... sometimes this is due to no one being willing to take a leadership role, and sometimes this is due to to many people trying to lead. Sometimes this can be bland and uninspired RP, and sometimes it can be fascinating...


Perhaps I'm missing your point here, but I don't really see a problem in general. There have been a few times where player discussion has gotten excessive, but IMO it's few and far between (granted, I tend to go on one-shot or shorter running quests, so perhaps there's a difference there).

[jrizz]

You know that is a really good point you made about balancing out the temporal issue of quests. I would say that for PnP that works much better. But it is a good way of looking it from a NWN POV as well. Now if there is no travel involved in the quest then it is harder to reconcile it. Thanks.

[jan]

Imho , conversations take longer due to several facts that need to be taken into account .

This world has a very versatile player base from all over the world , so finding the words to say what you want is sometimes a time consuming process for a player .

There is nothing that indicates if some one is typing , so conversations gets harder because you need to read back and reformulate your own answers/reactions according to that as well .

I'm sure each and everyone that has gone on quests has experienced that what he/she was typing became obsolete because off the reaction off some one else .

So i'd say give the players some slack and let them talk a bit longer if needed .

Just my two coppers .

[Acacea]

It is also a side effect of open and large-party quests. Quests that are totally open are almost always going to have the PCs themselves as the #1 obstacle. It is not a "sometimes" thing but an "almost all the time" thing. It doesn't matter if you are good or evil, the biggest hurdle to get over is going to be your companions (and of course, from their perspective, you!), regardless of who your character is. You typically don't know them at all, evil and good are in the same mish mash and often quite blunt about it, different faiths emblazoned on shields, a bunch of people wanting to have a moment of glory and getting all "Fear not good peoples of Nowhere!" about a kitten in a tree and being serious, someone wants to be nice, someone wants to be mean, five have been on the series for three years and explained it from head to toe for 2 out of the 3 and are done doing that, 2 came in without reading or asking a thing and are just standing around being confused, and of course, as jan mentions, everyone has different typing and reading speeds and things fly by so quickly, and...

The list goes on soooo long it's not even funny. Yes, part of it (a minor one in my opinion) can be the variance in the playerbase, but the biggest part is simply that there is a big wide world out there, and strangely, only one kitten stuck in the tree, and the OOC knowledge that if everyone broke off to save it their own way, that the single DM would most likely press "party kill" out of sheer rabid exhaustion, and most don't want to be inconsiderate OOC either by actually kicking someone out of the party.

The only other thing that I can say is agree that it is often truly mind numbing, that conclusions are more often reached by someone getting tired of it and doing their own thing or the blatantly bad guy everyone felt bad for and let stay will just smash it, and that the best thing to do is as already stated - take it to the forums, and don't be too hard on the group if at least the endless talking is productive in some way... and remember that even a half hour of real time planning before what amounts to an IC journey of a month or more, is not quite all that out there if they can get those silly details out of the way first. Chances are, if you don't hash them out you'll get punished for it by circumstances. Forums, forums, forums, and use those meeting sessions some kindly DMs offer when they do!

And, hate to say it, but don't be afraid to screw someone over sometimes. Ack! That sounds like the opposite of what everyone always says. I'm just saying... a lot of times long arguments come about because we are not "being" our characters and are more like "discussing being our characters." If you have someone that would act, act. And yes, press that big red button everyone is talking about if you are the rogue ensorcelled by shiny objects. It's just a story. Don't be afraid to mess up, or to try and fail. You're someone else now. You can give them a bit of emote warning (I used this tact a few times when Acacea was about to blow up the world) to give the players ample time time to let their characters respond, but other than that, well... most actions will inconvenience someone else - sometimes you've got to throw it all to the wind and remember it's a game.

Small tight groups will always function more efficiently than large disconnected ones - it is one of the challenges.

[Acacea]

Oh, and because I know there are always those who were never afraid to act in the first place, don't be afraid to be just slow enough to let someone else do it, too The opposite to screwing over is just as true!

[Zoogmunch]

A way forward in such situations is to follow the leader. In the real armed forces i'm sure groups dont stand around discussing theology whilst the bullets start flying. So, why not vote in a leader by agreement at the start in hemp or vehl or prantz and let them lead.
Leading might involve buying mercenaries who do what yer tell them or being the guy/girl who knows where the treasure is. Maybe roleplaying needs roles set out. ie the scouts scout, the healers heal, the fighters fight , the paladins talk about ritual and law and order fer half an hour and everyone does what the dwarf tells them too?

regards

Rockhead Howling Wolf.

ps. are any halflings out there interested in my thoughts on risk analysis?

[ycleption]

@Zoog, a bit of discussion on that point here: http://forums.layonara.com/roleplaying/113033-leadership-opinion.html

I guess I think there's a balance... I've been on quests where people venture off into deadly combat without knowing eachothers names or abilities. I've been on others where over half the quest is spent coming up with a plan when "walk east and see what's there" would have sufficed. Somewhere between these is ideal.

[Zoogmunch]

thanks for the links, some well thought out arguments.

I think the answer is see if people want a leader to follow and hopefully you'll get a leader you CAN follow.

Howling Wolf

[lonnarin]

Two things irk me on quests.

1) When the GM says that you may sleep, then interrupts it just to tick you off.  Or they demand that your character stay awake 24/7, well after all of your spells that last 1hour/lvl at 20+level have expired.  I understand the desire to make people not sleep every 3 hours or next to a den of ogres less than 20 feet away, but that is why we have the rest timer in the first place!  So then you get chastised for sleeping too much, for taking a nap after being awake for 40 hours straight... come on.  These people I want to follow around IRL with a sharp stick, poking them every time they try to take a nap, and telling them it's ok to sleep, then pouring a glass of water on their heads at the first sign of snoring.

2) When the party goody-goody decides to declare himself the leader and ruins the rest of the party's chance to get paid.  Now some might think, well this poor guy is just trying to play his alignment, but guess what?  When you hop in front of a guy and declare "We will ALL work for free!  those who dont like it can leave the mission..."  then this guy is being a jerk,  both IC and OOC.  To suddenly negotiate for another person and purposely undercut their wages is not a good act... if you're not willing to pay this man out of your own pocket what he would have earned prior to you opening up your big fat preachy paladin mouth, then it's not really charity is it?  It's more like making other people fund your own Public Relations.  Look buddy, not everybody is level 25 with every piece of gear they'll ever need collected, looking for good points or otherwise containing the martyrdom ego to need to be seen as a saint at all times.  When you hop in and undercut the rest of the party like that, then rudely suggest that all who want to get paid should leave, then the entire party should walk out on the quest except for him, and allow him to fail the quest on his own.  Either that or they should just get evil points by circling around him and stabbing him to death ala Julius Ceasar.  So please, feel free to give YOUR CUT of the pay to charity, but the very second you start looking at MY CUT and trying to force me to either work for free or miss out on the quest, then it ceases being a good act.  Such people should get docked an evil point for the very audacity that they would presume to control the finances of others, for whatever reason.  Tithing your own wealth is one thing, Tithing other people's stuff is theft.  Bam, you just got chaos points, ex-paladin.

[Lord Dark]

Wow, well said lonarrin. I agree with some of this, just in a more subtle way.

[jrizz]

@Lon on your first point I think you have to take into account all of the temporal slippage issues. During quests time moves at different speeds depending on what the party is doing. Here is my take:

Planning/talking/chatting with an NPC - Time moves very slow here. Meaning that much more time has passed mechanically IG then should have for the task at hand. So the GM treats that time passage in a very different way.

Traveling - Time move very fast here. Meaning that the mechanical time it take to get from one place to another is much shorter then the trip would really take. The GM has to adjust in his or her head what events have taken place "off stage" while the group was getting from A to Z.

Sleeping - Time moves very fast here. Meaning that the mechanical time is much shorter then what the called for rest time should take up. This one is key in that if you have mages then the prescribed rest time is really quite long. While the mage studies and the cleric prays the others are setting up and taking down camp, and during they are setting watches and such. Now in PnP the GM has all the time in the world to deal with what can happen while you rest but in NWN it is only seconds. Not to mention that many hours pass and the bad guy/gal is off doing something evil during that time. Resting in NWN on quests is a hard one to deal with. When I was a GM I normally just said if you are going to rest in risk areas it must be done as a group and at your own risk.

Of course this brings up the counter argument that rest time should be built into the temporal slippage structure for traveling. For it is part of the journey, A group does not travel for what should be three days in distance without resting once or twice.

On your second point. Well that is just very shallow RP and as a good player yourself you should be able to work around it

[Eight-Bit]

There are two things I liked to do when I DMed questing. The first one was to let players do whatever they wanted in terms of resting, it's annoying espically because most of the time people will complain in the DM channel to rest.

They just do it at their own risk, as they did with everything on my quests.

The second is a tip I have for current and future GMs. Pick someone you know, can trust, and that RPs well enough to be your GMs Little Helper. Tell them when the group is burning time with pointless arguments and get them to take some action.

The third tip I have is to balance your quests to require as fell spells as possible and make this fact known. When a Cleric burns their entire spellbook just to melee, it bogs the quest down with infinite quarterly-hour resting which is a real drag when it comes to being interested and involved in your own quest.

"Wait, that small girl could be an Ogre in disguise!"
"Yes, she could!"
"No, what if she's a demon?"
"They're always a demon!"
"We should preform some inane magical spell that nobody can cast any other time! Quick, roll a spell craft!"
*All spellcasters roll, along with 2 fighters and a rogue with 0 ranks*
"Hah, watch me over-RP a ritual!"
"I should look for tracks."
"I should look for tracks"
"I should look for tracks"
"/dm Did I find anything?"
"/dm Did I find anything?"
"/dm Did I find anything?"
"/dm Did I find anything?"
"/dm Did I find anything?"
"me: no"
"I should look for tracks!"
"I must pray to my god for the answer!"
"/dm what did Toran say about the little girl?"
"me: no"
"We must buff and prepare for the onslaught!"
"Yes, let's all cast 20 spells on eachother for this conversation, just incase this little girl gets snarky!"
"What ARE you child!?"
"What are you doing here?!"
"What do you demand!"
"girl: I live here."
"/dm Our spells are gone, can we rest?"
"me: no"