Rabid Opinion Part Deuce

[miltonyorkcastle]

Now that we've spent time considering, discussing, and debating what it means to be "epic" on Layo and some of the manners through which you'd get there, let's consider "epic" in terms of gamers playing a game. Reaching epic status, WL, etc. is Layonara's endgame. What's an endgame? It's what happens when you reach level 80 in WoW, what happens when you beat Mario Bro. (or any single player game) the first time, and what happens when when you can defeat any level of computer difficulty on Soul Caliber II. It's the "So I've got this awesome character who can kick the *** out stuff and has proved his/her awesomeness. Now what do I do with him/her?" In other words, what do you do when the game is over?

If you look at games today, especially multiplayer games, developers spend most of their time figuring out what to do for their "endgame." How do you keep people playing when they've essentially "won" the game? One route is to make a game with replayability by creating the game in such a way that there are many paths to the end. Many single player RPGs go this route. Another method is to continuously add content that caters to the the highest tier of success in the game. MMO's have lived heavily off this model, as there's usually ten times more content for 80th lvl characters than there is for any other level character. And of course there are other tricks, variations  and combinations of what I've already mentioned, all to keep the player invested and involved despite having already made it to the "top of their game."

Despite our limited resources, Layo has really utilized all of the above in recent years to address the growing number of players who had hit the endgame. We've added new and more content for the upper end of levels. And of course we've always had the ability to start a new character and play the game completely differently than we did before. However, the reality is that we can't produce content fast enough (our resources are rather limited, heh), and really, with the sort of world that Layo is (on the lower end of available magic and population), there's going to be a limited amount of "epic" material anyway. In other words, most of the world isn't of an epic nature.

Honestly, I don't believe NWN Layo was originally designed with this concept of endgame in mind. Pits, I don't think there was even a definition for "endgame" when Layo first appeared online. And with a world that keeps moving and changing, perhaps one might wonder how you could even have an endgame, and yet there does seem to be a limit on just how much your character can accomplish, however you feel that limit is imposed (hitting the level cap, becoming a WL, etc.).

So now I have a character that is high-level, influential, accomplished, a WL, I'm a good RPer, I give back to the community, I've done it all. I've been on big quests, little quests, allied with dragons and other players play my character's kids. Now what? Retire the character? Start over? But I like playing the character still, and I didn't want to do all this work just to retire the character. I want to use the power I worked so hard to get! Oh, you only need epic awesomeness on occasion? Yeah... I guess dragons don't attack everyday, huh... so I guess my character becomes a teacher... not too dangerous, but good interaction... not a lot at stake, but I'm still making a difference in the world... But my character has saved continents! and I'm reduced to a storyteller? Let's charge the Pits! that should be a challenge worthy of my hard-earned prowess! Oh... you can only get there with GM help... Yes, yes, it does make sense that few could get there and my character would likely get stuck there and... yeah, okay, I'll think of something else.

So I'm asking you, the community, now what?

[SIZE=10]I, of course, have some thoughts and answers regarding the "now what," but I'm interested in your answers.[/SIZE]

[Shiokara]

In this particular case where everything has been gained, the best "now what?" answer I would give is to keep going. Use your influence and power to organize player-run events. Design events meant to introduce old players to new ones to help break out of the old tradition of, "I leveled up with these people; these are my friends". Organize trips to high-level areas.

When you reach this point of the game, I think it is more work to keep yourself engaged.

I agree with your suggestion that Layo may have not had an endgame at first. This, I think, stems from the fact that NWN is really intended for adventurer campaigns like those in D&D, and is not designed to be a persistent world. The endgame for NWN is winning, and moving on to the next campaign. With Layo this "moving on" has been taken away. Characters who were the adventurers stories were based off of now have to live day to day.

It was said in part one of the intense debate that we are adventurers. I don't know that we truly are. We own dress shops and glass companies. We brew ale and bake pie. We start families. We live from day to day doing very day to day things in game. Sure, we go out sometimes and kill a hundred goblins, golems, elementals, etc., but I would argue that we are only really adventurers when we're raiding chests, killing, and doing DM quests.

Thus, to argue against my first point, I would say that Layonara does not really have an endgame because the persistent world makes it too much like life, and life has no real endgame either. You just go on until you die.

[Script Wrecked]

It used to be, way back in 1e AD&D, that when you got to level 10 (that's right, level 10!), that depending on your class, you got your own little kingdom to run (well, perhaps that was more specific to the Fighter class, but you get my point). Time to "think global, act global".

Really, what can't be accomplished through a long enough series of CDQs? Time for some serious imaginationing.

Some guy once said,

Layo is the canvas, you're the painter.

[Cinnabar]

How do you keep people playing when they've essentially "won" the game?

There is another perspective, which may be worth considering: Layo, like golf, can't be won, only played (apologies for the plagerism from "The Legend of Bagger Vance"). To quote the Bard, "The play's the thing".

In an RP emphasised world, with a constantly changing player base, as well as a constantly expanding PC base (including one's own new PCs), there's an almost unlimited set of opportunities for alliances, relationships, collaborations, antipathies, etc.

On the bashy side of things, even with script generated spawns, there are always alternative tactical/operational approaches with which to experiment.

And all this doesn't even take into account the plot and area developments that the team adds as we go along. I really don't understand the concern; a little effort and imagination goes a very long way, IMO.

[Masterjack]

What now you ask. Well I plan on making Layo do what I want it to do. Taking the lead before I have to follow some DMs plot line. Do not get me wrong I really appreciate what the DMs do for everyone. I also can not make Layo do what I want with out one either;). I see something that my character should be doing and I am making that happen.

Yes I hope for some of my characters to be world changers before they are level 20. The reason for that is because I have a plan and goal. It is a very specific goal with various break downs on how to make that happen. I do not know if he/she will make it but I'm sure gona have fun trying.

[Carillon]

Heh, Cinnabar, I love that quote, and I think it's very applicable in this case. Indeed, the game cannot be won, only played, and we play it in a very individualized manner too! No two characters or players take the same path through the game, and as such I think the answer to how to overcome the "endgame" problem is ultimately a question that each person must answer on their own, based on why they play here in the first place, what draws them, and how they would like to shape the world or the community.

Potential answers to the endgame question, some already stated:

1. Make a new character. Make a dozen! Indulge your creativity and play the game over and over, in as many of its infinite variations as you can.

2. Think of a way you would like to shape the world, and start making a plan to get there. There are perhaps indeed a few things that are not possible (or at least are so difficult as to be near enough!), but there is so much room for development here. Start an organization. Join a guild. Request a player-initiated plot event. Take a CDQ to prefer a personal development goal.

3. Enjoy the fact that your character kicks serious creature butt, and all those hard-earned abilities! Really, though, if you've reached the peak of your mechanical development and you can still have a great time crafting, bashing and going on adventures, why should the lack of mechanical progress affect you?

4. Mentor new players, and foster the same love of the game in them as you have developed. (I assume if you reached an endgame, you have to have liked Layo enough to stick around to get there!) Help them. Show them around. Teach them the lore. You wanna be epic? Act it! Walk the walk, so to speak.

5. Expanding on the theme of "acting epic" and giving back to the world, consider what your player has to offer the world now that they have reached such a peak of development. Find a character to mentor and become a teacher. Develop a series of player RP events or trips.

6. Build a closer relationship with our many Teams in some way, and find something new to give back to the community. Learn to love Layo on a whole new level! Find out (i.e. ask) how you can volunteer your time to contribute to the world. Write submissions for the Character Stable. Consider applying to one of the many Teams (Writing, CAs, LORE, or even GM). Shape the world on an OOC level, and become meta-epic!

7. Make it a personal goal to see every corner of Layonara. Become the person who organizes the weekly (or more frequent!) trips to those obscure dungeons and areas.

8. Find a willing GM and ask if you can share quest ideas with them. Many GMs are happy to receive ideas on how to incorporate WLs into our quests, or just work with you to bring that wacky quest idea you have to life! Do understand we are busy and there are limitations, and that knowing the hidden secrets of the quest beforehand may limit your own participation, but many GMs enjoy players taking this kind of initiative, and are happy to work with them.

The above are only a few suggestions. Really, this is such a personal question there will never be one right answer. How you will continue to enjoy the game after achieving your own personal "endgame" depends very much on how you enjoyed it before you reached that perceived peak! My suggestion to anyone struggling with this question would be to reflect on the parts of the game you enjoy most, and if you feel something is lacking in your experience, please don't assume that it must remain that way.

I don't think I'll ever reach my "endgame" in Layonara, because what I like best about this game is how many paths I can take through the world, and the interactions with other characters and players. No matter how many times I log in, I never know quite what awaits me or what to expect, either from a DM quest or impromptu, some player RP, or even just where my own inclinations will take me that day. It's that mystery that keeps things fresh for me--it's a world full of potential experiences, and I never know what my experience will be. However, I also acknowledge that I am the person who has the greatest influence over my own experiences here, through the actions and choices I make both in character and out, and as such I must also take responsibility for my own experiences and be an active force in creating the kind of world that I want to play in, and one in which I will never find an "endgame".

[jrizz]

Dont number crunch build imperfect PCs they are more fun in the long run. Dont power play/grind, take your time getting up there the trip is great.

[Xiaobeibi]

I think it would be great if WLs were more involved, but (and it's a big but) be careful how you do it.

Firstly, If you set a quest with world leaders in mind its very easy to accidentally create an atmosphere in which the other players feel they are nothing but an audience brought in to witness, in awe, the glory of the world leaders.

Part of this boils down to how inclusive world leaders behave: do they listen, take a step back at times and act like Gandalf in the back; or are they the Layo equivalent of Madonna on tour?

I have seen both -sorry to say this - and I know how it made me and a couple of other players feel when Madonna went on tour.

Secondly, if you bring WLs into an ongoing quest, then it's very easy to accidentally make players feel that they worked hard to get this far and then some WL comes in and steals the thunder.

If emotions are running high (which in a positive sense they should on a great quest) then things get misunderstood easily or get done in an unintended way. Just be very very careful not to create a situation which unintended creates animosity towards WLs or GMs.

I know it sounds harsh, but it's not meant harsh: If you are a WL, you have the greater responsibility; and if you want to be treated like a WL, act like one.

[Acacea]

I typed very long responses more than once, to both the original post and to xiaobeibi's, but I will just say (and then type another long response *facepalm*) that I think part of the perceived problems comes from too many people seeing a WLDQ as exactly that - an endgame - instead of a beginning. GMs and players alike.

I will also say that I have fought for advising roles for WLs since before my character became one, and that they are very, very rarely used in that capacity. I will add that I have literally begged (as in stated, I am seriously begging you) to bow out of direct frontline involvement in a quest for a sideline role. The success I have had in those are usually inversely proportional to the amount of GM aid it would require.

It takes a lot of understanding on everyone's part - the WL, to avoid getting into a character based self absorption and wielding a status like a hammer in whole groups - the GMs, to acknowledge them and give them a place that is not in direct competition with the players seeking to make their own mark - and the other players to understand the effort it takes trying to dance a line for their benefit... and to remember posts like these when starting another one saying "I had to do all the work and they hardly did anything!" (Those have been made too, heh.) ...and that for most before it was fine and even laudable to be one of the group taking charge and find ways to use their skills. After, everyone gives you dirty looks if they aren't made to feel appreciated enough.

"I have opened the door for you" is different from "eat my dust while I walk through my door." WLs should be careful to stick to the former (or limit their involvement), but GMs should allow the opportunity and players to maybe not resent that door opening.

It's not always the case. I was involved on one quest where no one knew Acacea was involved at all, because she just planted a few pieces of information and NPCs in their way. That was fun, and it's challenging without having to step on anyone, heh.

I will also say that sometimes characters don't get along. As a WL, yes, you do not want people to feel left out or take it OOC, and so tells and the like are good. But please, as a player, don't aid in that mindset of any disagreement or conflict is just "the man getting you down" OOC issue. If my character calls you a prissy nightflower then just deal with it IC, y'know? There just may be an IC reason that you haven't noticed. She recently ripped someone a new one for presumably no apparent reason - I won't explain the reasons why to them, but just perhaps, instead of it being me having a problem, there might actually be not even just one IC reason but a list. If we start assuming things source OOC, we stop asking IC...and those reasons are never found.

The only thing I can recommend is consideration on all sides, and recognition on all sides that everyone makes mistakes.

And yes, while the large portion of it is specifically to the post above, I do think it is relevant to topic because it deals directly in "what do you do after?" There are tons of things to do, but ultimately they should in some way be able to involve other players SOMEwhere, or else you aren't doing anything worthwhile.

[Dorganath]

Speaking for myself, primarily for reasons of available time, I keep my WL character out of most things that will involve a lengthy commitment, simply because I don't know when I might not be able to hold up my end of things, whatever that may be.

That said, my WL character's abilities and sphere of influence occasionally cause him to become involved in things that he would not ignore and would want to see resolved properly for his own reasons.  In several cases, it has been part of an on-going quest that has either captured his interest or strayed into his sphere of influence, and in such cases I do try to either be as supportive to the effort as possible.  He generally does not seek to be the "leader", though he will do so if necessary, and he is more comfortable playing a "support" role, utilizing his abilities as appropriate and passing the information along to the group.

What happens a lot though is people start deferring to him, asking him what to do...what he thinks they should do...and so on.  It's somewhat appropriate, but it's not the intent of my involvement.

So what xiaobeibi said is very valid, and of course I can't speak for other WLs and what they do or how GMs will cater to them, but realize also that one's observations of things once a WL joins in (or is there from the start) may not be quite as they think.  It is a tricky thing to balance on all sides (those being GM, WL and other PCs).

Personally, I'm really happy in the WL-as-Advisor role.  As well I've enjoyed introducing quests (sometimes appearing later at the conclusion to help wrap things up) as a semi-NPC or "plot hook" for the GM.

More to the original post...

NWN Layo was not really made with an "endgame"...unless you consider the possibility that a campaign is in fact exactly that, and in our setting, the endgame can be achieved, in full or in part, by anyone (though not as a solo effort).

Of course, that endgame does not "replay" like many games with real endgame content, but the "endgame" concept does not fit well here, at least not in NWN.

To offer a bit more in the way of explanation, NWN Layonara started not long after NWN was released.  It wasn't really "persistent" yet, at least not in the way we think of it, and of course for a long time, NWN didn't have any progression past 20th level. At all.

For the longest time, most of Layonara, even that top-level content, was designed with a 20-level maximum in mind.  Once epic levels were opened up in the expansions, some additional content was included that provided challenges through level 25 or so, but that was about it.  Likewise, spells and things really weren't scaling in any meaningful way past level 20, which again is largely a hold-over from Bioware's prior limits on the matter and indeed, their own coding of most spells.

Eventually, more high-level content was added in one form or the other, but it was largely a "bolt-on" effort, making the best of what we could with what we had.  It wasn't until the 3.2 release that we really put some thought into the post-20 progression for spells and such, but even that is sort of a partial solution.

The real and best answer would be to take and fully redesign Layonara from the ground up, looking at all content from Level 1 through Level 40, making sure there is a proper and meaningful progression throughout.  There was intent to do this when we released v3 back in 2006, but time and resources made that far from practical.

Sadly, unlike many other online games (i.e. WoW), NWN stops hard at 40th level.  While I know some systems exist to give some "progression" past this point in NWN, it's rather faked and limited. So when people reach the "end"...there's really nothing we can do after that in terms of further progression.  It all becomes intangible for the most part. So if one looks for a mechanical "endgame", NWN can only reward so much.  Sure we have places in the world that will challenge our 40th level characters, once those are beaten, there's really nothing more, and we can't make new challenges that are much more difficult because characters cannot progress beyond their current point to better face the new challenge. It would just be "new" but really no more of an endgame as the prior challenge.