Technologies in Layonara????

What technologies presently exist in Layonara?

Which ones I have discovered that do exist:
Basic machines
For traps to work, you have basic mechanical theory, compression theory, static theory, gas theory, fluid theory.
There is iron age, bronze age and copper age metallurgy.
There is smelting, thus there is soft steel, but not hardened steel (as that would require coal with bauxite to make coke furnaces)

Technology is all over the place.

[Leanthar]

Pretty much what you stated there is all there is at this time.  I am assuming you are referring to your post in another forum where we stated certain things would not exist.  *shrugs* Not sure what else to tell you other than what we have been saying for a while now.

[Milo]

Well, since Layonara features the prestigeous GNOMES, anything you can imagine (or DM rather) is possible : )

[Doc-Holiday]

Magic will solve all your troubles... why there are so many quarts of quaffable remedies you hardly now where to start!

*I was going to do a sentence in Q but ran out of creativity after the second one*

Considering I can imagine alot, have found there have been set limitations as to how creative a player is allowed to be.
Given, the template for my character is being drawn from two sources. The Minoi(Tinker Gnomes) and that scatter-brained gnome in Icewind Dale II.
Though I doubt one would ever allow a flying ship in Layonara.(There are limits) haha

Thought the concept would be fun, and considered already, before I even made up the character, that the coding already existed in NWN for many things.

Much of what can be done, or is actually set in the way of coding, is in the traps that are available through the craft of tinkering.

Wondering though, how much coding is needed to be done in order to craft what you see in the workshop, kitchen or tower? Or, for such things to available as deeds?

[Milo]

Oh there was a flying ship when Layo was back in Beta 4 ^_^
  Unfortunately it burned down and crashed as a ball of flame... 

[Talan Va'lash]

Komoda - 10/12/2005  7:33 PM

Considering I can imagine alot, have found there have been set limitations as to how creative a player is allowed to be.
Given, the template for my character is being drawn from two sources. The Minoi(Tinker Gnomes) and that scatter-brained gnome in Icewind Dale II.
Though I doubt one would ever allow a flying ship in Layonara.(There are limits) haha

Thought the concept would be fun, and considered already, before I even made up the character, that the coding already existed in NWN for many things.

Much of what can be done, or is actually set in the way of coding, is in the traps that are available through the craft of tinkering.

Wondering though, how much coding is needed to be done in order to craft what you see in the workshop, kitchen or tower? Or, for such things to available as deeds?

Player placable CNR workstations will not be IG for balancing and location reasons.  I know, it would be great to have, but it would cause too many problems.  As it is now resources are the same distance from craft halls for everyone.  If you could put craft hall stuff in your house, depending on the location of your house, you might be a lot closer to certain resources.  Although that makes sense IC wise, in the interests of egalitarianism, it won't be allowed.

-TV

Edit: Quote Komoda: "For traps to work, you have basic mechanical theory, compression theory, static theory, gas theory, fluid theory."

yes, traps operate on these theories.  That does not mean they have to be known or stated to build something based on them.  You don't have to understand gas laws or fluid dynamics to know that if you fill an airtight waterskin with air or water, then take the cap off and squeeze it, that whatever's in it is going to come out fast.

[Ar7]

Agree with Talan here, when a person digs a hole to catch a bear, he knows that the bear will fall in, he doesn't know that it is the gravity that does it.

I have noticed that there are too many players roleplaying a follower of goran, perhaps the deity should be relgated to npc status given the dogma, or at least change the dogma.
Let me see engineering means war machines and the mechanics of that. Then of course along with engineering you also have sappers and castle construction.
Then you have science, which possibly means everything to do with alchemy. Which of course is the precursor to modern science, given that you had crystallurgy, metallurgy, and of course let us not forget cataloguing of every creature and plant under the two moons.
For the neonate that believes everyhting is governec by the weave, you have of course the followers of Lucinda. For all those that think otherwise, you have those that follow Goran. Thinking that there are other dynamics governing the crystal sphere than the weave.
Then again, we strat going into spelljamming theology. With furnace drives, artifact drives and all sorts of neat weave tech. Which I am sure will not be allowed to expunge upon.

[Wintersheart]

Ar7 - 10/13/2005  6:40 PM

Agree with Talan here, when a person digs a hole to catch a bear, he knows that the bear will fall in, he doesn't know that it is the gravity that does it.

Indeed many gnomes think it is the well placed ham that draws the bear in rather than gravity. This have given rise to the great forest gnome theory of a ham centered earth. The evidence is obvious ham draws bear. Bear equals mass. Bigger hams draw bigger bears. Ergo the center of the earth must be a ham suffecient in size to draw all.  

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I like some of the things you are suggesting. I assume that you are suggesting inventions like gun powder, fullowed by primitive guns and explosives, primitive flying machines, etc., which might be followed by special classes like for example sappers or engineers.
That said, please be aware of the amount of work it would take to implement technology into Layonara, making it equal to magic. I cannot even imagine how many months we are talking here. Please remember that people on the GM and Project team are working voluntarily. They have jobs, family, friends and other hobbies besides this. Even though it might be fun to implement something like this into the world, I might be wrong but I do not see it happening because there are a ton of other things currently being worked on, and because of the size of this project.

Harlas

[Dorganath]

Keep in mind also that whatever new things we bring into the world, whether technological or magical, need to fit within the world and be balanced within the world.  Besides taking large amounts of effort to produce and implement, a lot of care must be taken to be sure that they have the right balance.
  Keep in mind one key thing here:  Layonara is its own campaign setting.  It is not Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer or any of the other settings.  It is its own, unique setting, with its own history, its own gods, its own limitations, etc.  Because some things are present/possible in other settings does not universally mean they apply here. 
  Let me say that your creativity is commendable. And speaking for myself, I don't think anyone is trying to limit your creativity.  However, it's important to remember that regardless of how good an idea may sound, it still has to be made, tested, and balanced by someone.  And even more importantly, it needs to make sense within Layonara.
  I'm not quite sure why you think Goran should become an NPC only faith. That there is a lot of Weave-centric philosophy and devices on Layonara does not mean also that there is not a lot of technology on Layonara. On Layonara, there are great fortresses and castles (engineering), as well as fortified walls, bridges, ships and so forth.  All of these things were built with principles of engineering.
  If anything, most crafts are almost entirely mundane in nature.  Alchemy is largely chemistry, cooking is...cooking.  Gem crafting, tinkering, smelting, armor crafting, weapon crafting, tailoring, poison crafting and musical instrument crafting are all technological and/or scientific in nature, borrowing from chemistry, metalurgy, physics, mechanics, etc.  Enchanting, infusing and scribing are about the only truly Weave-centric crafts there are here.  Oh, and several of the crafts contain recipies that blend both mundane and magical.
  Once again, I say that if your charcter wishes to invent things, then RP it.  Be aware of how time passes.  Sometimes it takes years to invent something to the point where it has a practical use, and it takes about 1 RL month for a year to pass in Layonara. But also keep in mind that the science we have and the science Layonara has are two very different things.  Not that different physical laws are at work, but that the Layonaran understanding of such is limited.
  And my last suggestion to you is instead of trying to bring science and technology into Layonara, consider trying to get more science and technology out of Layonara.  You should start with what's here and work outward. A lot of invention in this world (i.e. Earth) is little more that taking what already exists and putting it together in new ways.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Hold to that last statement of Dorg's.
And remember something about sentient creatures:  We always try to find the easiest way out, and if that fails, we go for what we are most comfortable with.  We reject new and foreign scenarios out of fear.

Because magic already exists in Layo, and can be/has been used to solve many of the mysterious and even mundane dilemnas across the world, the fact that many ascribe to the dogma of the weave is not surprising.  Moreover, because of its establishment, introducing certain technologies into the world that can essentially function in much the same way, and therefore take the place of, magical means, will be rejected on the same principle of fear and laziness we sentients are prone to.  For technology beyond magic to take a greater hold would take one of two things:  the reduction in power of magic, or having it forcibly introduced on the population.  

The other dilemmna involving technology is the need of the common man.  Sure, adventurers would scramble for some nifty new invention, but the common populace, keeping to their simple trades, would have no desire, and, more importantly, no means with which to procure such trinkets.  Let's take a look at history.  Many of the concepts discovered by modern scientists had already been chronicled by the ancient civilizations.  Yet, why then didn't these concepts take hold?  They were not available to the common man, nor did the common man have a need for it, or the means to frivolously explore it like the monarchs did.  When technology did take hold, what was it that allowed it to stick around?  Answer: An overall elevation in the wealth and status of the common man, or, the creation of what we know as the middle class.  The common man was not only allowed access to, but discovered a need for technology in order to function in what has become known as the industrial age.

Magic, the general low wealth of medeivel society, and fear will keep significant technological changes from being implemented for a very, very long time.

There have been situations where IC wished I could just find a burrow or hollow tree to hide in while the ogres lose inerest and go away. A sapper would only have to dig really quickly to get away from an ogre trying to get at the gnome that is trying to get away.
As for the existence of black powder and the eventual invention of the arquebus. That idea never caught on very well when they tried to introduce it in DnD. The conseuences out weighed the benefits. Mind you having an open-ended d20 for critical was kind of cool, but also it meant having an open-ended d20 for botch too. Not a nice weapon at all
When it comes to engineers, I am only thinking of the term engineer in relation to the engineers responsible in construction and the field. As I said, engineers were responsible for the building of war machines (eg. Majesty) and in the construction of walls and ramparts for fortifications. Sappers were used to dig beneath the ground, in which case gnomes for soft ground and dwarves for hard ground. Even Halflings made excellent sappers.
Now I am not saying that technology should be anything like the game Arcanum for the world of Layonara Online. Just a suggestion, that it could be close for a follower of Goran given the dogma of the temple.
As for theories behind traps, many of those theories for traps were just merely concepts put to use for traps with much of the research end being done through alchemy.
Also think that too much emphasis is placed on the weave. I know, I know, Layonara Online is a weave enriched world that is how it was put together, but not everyone is comfortable roleplaying a caster.

A little history about the mage, it comes from Magi, as does does the word magic. A magi was responsible for the outcome of a war, much of what happened during a battle had already been foreseen by divination. I did find that magi were could also inspire courage in their soldiers and fear into their enemies just by their mere presence on the battlefield.
Wizards were like scientists in their time. They would lock themselves in towers, caves and cellars for days or even weeks on an idea. Many wizards died, lost fingers or became sickly because of malnourishment, but many things that they were successful at in their experimentations became templates for many modern inventions. The fact that two equal portions of brass and bronze when put together with a crystal attached to one end, makes the crystal glow, is just one of these experiments. In this modern era, we can explain it as an exchange of negative ions into the positive receptor, the build up is what excites the ions in the crystal and makes it glow. On the other hand, in relation to Layonara Online, such a thing could be explained as an exchange of essence between the two alloyed rods, acted upon by the subconcious will of the wielder.
As for a sorceror, I think these were the ancient alchemists. Elementalists, that would mix the essences extracted not only form inorganic material but also organic materials. I have only ever read that such descriptions of sorcery came out of the orient. As in the dynastic ages of china, where they were cataloguing flora and fauna, long before europe ever was. It might also be the source by which, although the discovery was accidental, the creation of black powder. China had grenades, rockets and even grenadiers long before anyone else did. They even had something similar to the burst rocket, a rocket filled with bamboo splinters that contained a short fuse, when launched, it would explode over the invading army and riddle them in a rain of bamboo splinters. Can we say, OUCH!
Understand, many of the ancient inventions were the basis of magic by the simple superstitious folk. Only the mages,wizards and sorcerors of that time knew the truth, and with superstitious folk thinking it was magic, what did they care, their ingenuity gave them both respect, authority and even notoriety.

All I offer is possibilities

[miltonyorkcastle]

perhaps if you could give a specific "use" within the world of Layo for an engineer-turned-adventurer?  It makes sense that sappers and engineers might already exist among the armies of the King of Dregar or the Queen of Mistone, but what use would they have among adventurers.  That is, they are a highly specialized bunch, and their specialty is best used within a large organization.  While trebuchets are sweet, what adventurer would find dragging one around worth the effort?

In the field, most engineers would build to suit the objective. The only thing they would take with them are the needed tools. In history, despite how the movies depict, most war machines were constructed as they were needed to perform a certain function. Then they were either dismantled or destroyed.
In most cases the materials used were simple and easily obtained.
Lumber, usually a hardwood.
The bark made into fibre and then used to weave the needed rope. Usually from softwoods, as the bark was very supple and easily worked with.
Stone, which was used for counter balance and also ammo.
Animal fat was used into the working of hide into strappings and also as lubricant to grease any machine that used a spindle.
As for sappers, they were used in digging of moats and ditches, which are also partnered with barricades, made of timber.
A full contingent of troops consisted of sappers, engineers, armorers, weaponsmiths, bowyers and fletchers. Then of course there is always a tailor, field cook, apothecary, chiurgeon and priest.

All these different professions all had the needed technologies for a successful campaign.

There are but three classes that I know of in Layonara Online, that use technology on the fly and in the field. The resources needed are what can be found throughout the lay of the land, this includes tools, armor, weapons, food, shelter and healing materials. The three classes are the survival classes: druid, ranger and barbarian.

I think some where in the DnD publications, there was a gaming supplement that listed the professions needed by the common adventurer to engage in a successful campaign. Not really sure of its title, I do think I have a copy somewhere, but its packed.
Actually, there is one technology missing from the the game world, that of repair. Either to common items, armor, weapons and tools.

By the way its not a bowyer/ fletcher that builds a crossbow. Its an engineer, as a crossbow is basically a miniature ballista. The specialty is artillerist (seige weapons).

[Doc-Holiday]

And that is why magic is so much better

[Vyris]

Komoda - 10/14/2005  4:13 PM

A full contingent of troops consisted of sappers, engineers, armorers, weaponsmiths, bowyers and fletchers. Then of course there is always a tailor, field cook, apothecary, chiurgeon and priest.

All these different professions all had the needed technologies for a successful campaign.

You left out the MOST important member(s) of ANY campaign.. the *ahem* Camp 'followers' that performed the various 'other' duties for military campaigns of ages past. You never went off to war without your most important assets.

Vyris

[miltonyorkcastle]

ehh... you missed the point of my question.  I know all about their usefulness in military campaigns.  So I repeat, how are such classes valuable to, and as, adventurers (such as we PC's)?

Being able to craft things on the fly may open up the world of layonara even more. With PCs not always having to go to town, unless of course to replace broken tools.
With the survival classes, they would not need to go to town, they could find the basic tools they needed to craft or use to improve their existing tools to the next level.
The idea might work, but probably not.
Having woodcraft, if the PC has carpenter tools with them, should not need to go back to town to make arrows. They could easily, make a fire, find the branches needed to make arrows, a bird to get the feathers from, and harden the tips using the method of carbonization. In another post, in another thread, I mentioned something about flint or obsidian. With a trip in game to the mountains near Valensk. There is obsidian golems, I did think maybe, there would be some obisidian left over from an obsidian golem after being slain. Oh well, no such luck. It would have been cool though. The idea of using flint or obsidian tipped arrows is the kind of technology, though archaic, is what I am talking about.
Another point is the NPCs, with these professions mentioned, they could be some of these npc's that are running around. Character finds the supplies they need, and the needed coin, takes all that they have obtained to one of these npc's and it is made for them, with the same chances that they would have had if they had done it themselves, with the exception, the npc is specialized in that particular profession and would have a bonus in the items crafting. Could even attach a time by which such things are completed.
A PC would still need to rp with another PC for instruction in a craft, and there is always an opportunity to save coin by doing it yourself, but then again, it would allow time for the PC to do other things.
The other thing, it would not take away from the established CNR medium within the game, it would add to it.
Posts have been made about wanting wagons, then find a teamster.
People want horses and other mounts, then find a equine trainer or an exotic trainer.

There are so many aspects of the medieval world, in the way of artisans and professions that would make Layonara Online a very real world in which to rp in.

Doing things yourself is always faster and cheaper.