Tips for Villains

[Spider]

steverimmer - 3/9/2006  2:56 PM  I think as well that charisma scores should play a part as well. For instance if you have an evil character...a cleric perhaps, with a charisma score that is above average. He's not likely to be publically rude, offensive or off putting to other player characters.  In fact he's probably going to be exactly the opposite.   However...a person with very low charisma may exhibit these traits even if he's not evil

 As my char has a the charisma of 24 does that mean she'll be like the typical english gentleman but female...

[Weeblie]

Stunning... Define stunning...

Good looking for one person may not be that for another.

I have to agree with DMOE on that point. A cha 10 person is quite average after all.

typically_annoying's point of raising the "appearance factor" and decreasing "personality factor" in charisma might work, but it would be very strange. Like, for a cha 10 person to be stunning (say, cha 14), he/she would have the same amount of personal strength as a troll/badger/bear (cha 6).

[DMOE]

typically_annoying - 3/9/2006 4:05 PM

DMOE - 3/9/2006 3:38 PM You know I'd like to see Cha played full stop...not saying that people don't but I am often amazed by how many Cha 10 people describe themselves as stunning or beautiful. Sorry, but at Cha 10..you ain't...your average.

Actually, this is wrong ... you could be extremely beautiful, stunning in fact, but have no charisma. The attribute isn't particularly about the way you look, but the way you are perceieved and your ability to communicate and influence people. And, yes, Moonlight is stunning! I picked the head because of it But she isn't a big communicator and usually just nods, giggles/chuckles or gives short replies. So she does have a low charisma in how she interacts. So some of us do try and rp the charisma, but it is hard to do and only realy comes to light in gm events, when Moonlight would fail miserably if she even tried.

 Er didn't the rest of my post go something like this....
  Not that there is anything wrong with someone being a low Cha but very attractive and not a nice person or having a lack of people skills...It just needs to be obvious from their RP when you first meet them.
  Which is in essence what you've just said?
  I don't mind anyone dissagreeing with me...I encourage it but in this instance you actually agreed with me if only you'd not cut the rest of my post off.
  And tell me about it...Ireth dates Jet for heavens sake!!

[miltonyorkcastle]

once again, there are so many different ways to play high and low charisma.  there is no set standard.  Charisma is the most subjective of attributes- the least straight-forward.  It is partially looks, partially attitude, partially presence, partially oratory, etc.  

Though, I would have to say, the odds of someone with a charisma of 10 or less looking "stunning" is quite low.  And, to look "stunning" requires quite a bit of upkeep.  Scratch that-  A LOT of upkeep.  So, slaying mosters on a consistent basis would do a severe dampening to those "stunning" looks.  A character may start off handsome when they are young, but 5-10 years after major wars, blood and gore, etc., and they will be hardened and only a shadow of their former beauty.

[SuperMunch]

As for the charisma attribute, I always found it to be the hardest attribute in D&D - it's not physical beauty, it's how one interacts with others.

The classic example is Hitler (there, I Godwin'd the whole thread), ugly guy but was able to create a war machine of earth shaking proportions.

As for players, I see it rather well played because it's hard to gauge it unless the player runs the character as such.  Freldo's an 18 charisma and he manages to get noticed - always.  Like him, hate him it doesn't matter, you'll eventually hear of him - that's what I see charisma as and that's how I play him.

Now, about how evil works, I see evil as a corruption of trust - an evil character is untrustworthy and deceitful.  This works great in role playing because a good evil character would be a very likable guy until he decided it was time to turn against everyone.

Evil is exploiting weaknesses in others - trust and truth are things upon we build relations and corrupting these virtues (through lies and deceipt) are, IMVHO, the core of true evil.

Dark clothing and strange ways aren't a sign of malice, they're a fashion trend and way of life, true evil is corruption of hearts and minds...  Hmmm...  Where did I hear that before?

Anyway, I'd play a pretty good evil character if there was a need for a manipulatory and seductive character but chaotic good is where I'm the happiest.

[Niles09]

miltonyorkcastle - 3/9/2006  5:48 AM

 A character may start off handsome when they are young, but 5-10 years after major wars, blood and gore, etc., and they will be hardened and only a shadow of their former beauty.

It would be short minded to say that hardened chars only would be a shadow of themselves. First of all their traits would be the same, they would probaly even be more fit after combats, and they might get that specieal look by being hardened, something  more inteligent and experienced instread of some unexperienced popgirl, who thinks everything is love and happiness, and just makes people annoyed. A rose is more stunning rising among scrub, than a rose that is cared for, planted in the best soil among hundreds of other roses.

[Niles09]

SuperMunch - 3/9/2006  5:50 AM

Now, about how evil works, I see evil as a corruption of trust - an evil character is untrustworthy and deceitful.  This works great in role playing because a good evil character would be a very likable guy until he decided it was time to turn against everyone.

that is being chaotic. CG can fool others as well, and dont mind keeping their word, but they do it for good (means a evil char cant trust a CG) Evil is when you uses others to further your own goals, no matter what would happen to others.

[Deacon]

Niles09 - 3/9/2006  10:09 AM

but about evil, I dont hope its going to be a trend, cause its very annyoing not to be able to play with people, because your own char is a total idealist, a bad side of RP if you ask me.

Heh, speaking of having noone to play with...you should try playing a dark minded character.  Especially a drow, because then you will know the true meaning of having noone to play with

[SuperMunch]

Niles09, you're not wrong but I'm talking greater sense of evil, not role playing alignments.

Evil is just as hard do define as good is but one thing is very much true about evil - evil is misusing trust in the same way as good is putting trust to good use.  This is subjective of course but stop to think about it - malignant tyranies (or what we call tyranies) are all about the misuse of trust.

Think of those you consider "evil" in real life, do they not betray the public's trust?  Do they not betray your trust?

Edit: Forgot the about up there.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Niles, I said a "shadow of their former ~beauty~"  Not life.  I was refering to physical beauty.  Not the whole person.  By general standards, a scar-riddled, grim-faced war vet is not as pretty as the young recruit.  

And after many wars, their traits, I would suggest, would ~not~ be the same.  Scars, the sun, and age can completely change the face of a person.  Not to mention ailments or injuries such as a missing rib or dislocated hip.

Now, their presence as a person may be much more impressive, despite their physical beauty being depressed.  But that still won't change the loss of physical charm, rather it is a gain of other kinds of charm.

[Niles09]

SuperMunch - 3/9/2006  6:18 AM

Niles09, you're not wrong but I'm talking greater sense of evil, not role playing alignments.

Evil is just as hard do define as good is but one thing is very much true about evil - evil is misusing trust in the same way as good is putting trust to good use.  This is subjective of course but stop to think about it - malignant tyranies (or what we call tyranies) are all about the misuse of trust.

Think of those you consider "evil" in real life, do they not betray the public's trust?  Do they not betray your trust?

and I would totally agree, I just said not only evil can take advantage of trust, so taking avantage of trust is chaotic, taking advantage of trust for your own sake and goals is evil, and most likely NE.

[Ar7]

I agree with Diamond and Leanthar on playing evil. The most you can do is be involved in intrigues that change the world from behind the scenes, without anybody actually knowing what happened and who was behind this. An evil character won't ever be able to tell what he did to the open public nor will he be able to triumph as Diamond says.

I play Rufus as a well mannered man, he will usually reply kindly to most people and help with whatever they ask. On the outside he is a crafter and a necromancer, the latter is the one that usually attracts the most bad looks, but, necromancy is an official part of the church of Lucinda, so no problem there. So from the outside, there are really no clues that he is evil and black clothing does not count as a sign of being evil  

Of course there are exceptions, like when Isilme really managed to anger Rufus to what he is almost never like.

But what I wanted to say is, being evil, however you hide it, always comes out. Like Rufus never said that he began worshipping Corath, but we have clerics to thank for spreading such things, so now Rufus sometimes says yes, if asked whether he worships Corath or not. Sometimes knowledge of some events spread and even such dumb things like "Your fellow secret guild member opens his mouth and gives your name out" things happen. So when trying to play evil, stay hidden for a long as you can, others will eventually find out and then you'll be wishing they never did that. So hopefully nobody gets any solid proof or Rufus will be hung  :p

As for evil abusing trust, I'd have to agree only partially. A lawful person follows a code, be it his personal views of the world, his organisation's rules or some others. In reality many people who may be considered evil are very loyal to their friends, family, superiors etc. So we have to make a difference between LE NE and CE

[ZeroVega]

*coughs* Under Minor Crimes of "The Law of Layonara"

• Worship of unrecognized deities determined to be evil or directly threatening to the continent
  
That would I believe, include deities such as, Corath, Pyrtechon, andBaraeon Ca'duz. You would however need a Mistone/Dregarian Scribe of Law to reaffirm that as fact.
 
  As for "Charisma", I do agree somewhat what what everyone has said. I think it's a universal RP idea that in Fantasy worlds high "Charisma" governs speaking ability, looks, leadership skills, and social skills, as well as parts of the creative and artistic thinking patterns. The biggest problem is that "Charisma" is a very difficult thing to work out, because unlike "strength" which we all know governs strength, Charisma can influence nearly everything that is labled "RP".
  I've just given it up as, "To each his or her, own." No point in me saying, "there are too many good-looking people on Layonara." Or, "everyone speaks too well." That's not going to solve anything, rather it will simply offend people and make me lots of enemies very fast. Rather I've chosen to make a concious effort to be aware of my Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores and play them accordingly.
  My greatest accomplishments with the "questionable abilities" (as I call them), has been with my character Adrian. A fighter with 14 Intelliegnce, 10 Wisdom, and 10 Charisma, and I've given great thought to how I've chosen to play him. And that is, as I said, all I feel I can do. (It gets back to the "Define" True Neutral discussion... can't be done.)
 
  And last on Evil characters. I agree with G-452. The best evil characters, won't let you know they're evil until their plan has come to fruitition. That's my opinion on PCs. But as it has been shown, that's not the case with many villain NPCs, characters is books, and in movies. If someone is playing an evil character, and their character is possibly not a "Sun Tzu" for strategy, perhaps he/she, will make a huge blunder and expose him/herself as evil before the correct time. *shrugs* If that happens, so be it. Where would the fun be if every evil character acted the same, was unknown, and was honestly that dangerous?
  I'm drawn to drow for a few reasons.
[list=1]

• The Chaos of their personalities.
• The rich history and RP that can come from them, simply because they're drow.
• The rejection I recieve from players. It's wonderful to see players actually RPing!
• Last, some of the best RP I have experianced and some of the best stories I've ever read have centered on evil characters, particularly drow. I want to be a part of that.
 People are going to have different reasons for playing evil, and just because several are working towards it in a similar way doesn't mean they'll act the same once they get there. Love this thread by the way. Peace!

[Niles09]

Speaking about CE NE and LE, ofcourse.. NE chars are in the players handbook (dnd) described as the most evil aligment cause they trick others and plan, so they would unlikely show their true self. LE as well, dont just chop people down on the street, and may just act a bit hard and coldly but you would need to know them to know them as evil.. as for CE they dont really exist in towns like Hlint cause they are unstable and kill people without thought, and thats why we cant play them, they wouldnt be able to live in a town or village openly.

[Diamondedge]

Well, I didn't want to get into my future plans for Turor just yet, but it seems I have no choice but to explain exactly what I meant by all of it; I'm sorry, though, Typically_Annoying, if I happened to offend you somehow in my initial post. I don't really see how I could have, but I guess I must have to get you all defensive like that.

Yes, I started this thread to help people out with roleplaying darker characters because I have seen no less than four characters so far in Layonara who have in their description somewhere "Glares coldly at you, a murderous haze in his/her eyes" etc.

Evil is never obvious when it's surrounded by good. That would be suicidal. If you are obviously evil in the middle of an obviously good town, you're nailed to a post - not tied, ropes would be too good for you - and burned to cinders.

Here is a good example: Turor Sunderstone's corruption.

If you all remember, Turor was in the midst of creating a big ol' dwarven battalion with which to battle Sinthar, but then I mysteriously disappeared, and the plans never came to pass. My idea was that slowly, over the course of, say, six real-life months, I'd RP Turor becoming more and more corrupted by the vast powers at his hands. He's growing old, after all, and really wants to make a name for himself. Do his clan proud.

He'd start by xenophobically routing out all the nearby goblin tribes to wherever the headquarters was. He has a particular hatred for goblins, and if you read the "A Dwarf's Story" thread I have in the Character Development, the reasoning for that will be pretty self-explainatory. So he'd wipe the goblins out. But he would come into the realization that he had an impossibly difficult army at his command. So he'd persuade them to march on Orcs. And then Kobolds. And then whatever else, and the other dwarves would happily go along with it, no doubt, because they're making the world a better place, and killing hated enemies.

But then Turor would confront the dwarves and persuade them to attack the elves, because they're dirty, stinkin' bark-lickin' leaf-eaters, that hate dwarves, spit on 'em, grind the bearded folk into the dirt, etc etc. The dwarves would obviously be hesitant but Turor would goad them into it. So a civil war would errupt between the elves and the dwarves.

Of course, eventually Turor would be put to death, probably by a handful of dwarves and elves together that see the folly of the conflict.

Turor would have been corrupted by ambition and great power, but he wouldn't have come right out and said "Ach, leh's kell wot weh won' ter kell, laddehs, northin' kin stop oos!" He'd have went around it all by giving perfectly understandable reasons for the warring. Nobody would really suspect him of being evil until it was blatantly obvious. And then he'd pay for it.

That is what villainy is. Of course, Turor does openly insult pretty much whoever, because he's a grumpy old dwarf. Were he a human, or an elf, he likely wouldn't insult to many people.

And on the side-topic of charisma, there is a direct correlation between physical beauty and getting along well with others, having them like you, and drawing them to you. There are several 'areas' that Charisma finds itself within. Physical beauty, oral communication, hygiene and physical communication - Body language.

[miltonyorkcastle]

hehehe, someone was itching to spill the beans...   now whatcha gonna do, Diamond?  

[lonnarin]

Diamondedge - 3/9/2006  12:01 PM

Well, I didn't want to get into my future plans for Turor just yet

Hopefully they don't involve eating Derrick's puppy?

[xXDenizeNXx]

charisma, intelligence and wisdom. The three amigos of DnD. If charisma were just about looks and looks alone then why can you build the stat? I don't see too many bueaty clinics or plastic surgeons on Layo Hehe. Like my Half Giant Dimmy, only has cha of like 7 or maybe 6 because he was pre stat law made, he is funny yes and even likable, but also he interupts folks, runs through people talking disrupting there conversation by asking to play hidey and hugging folks, like walks up to a Dark Elf and says hey you got black skin (good rp there too your char was like and what do you mean by that?) calls dwarves and halflings little or small mans, calls people sillies (thats the pot calling the kettle black) and any number of rude, non tactful, descriminatory and degrading remarks and yet folks just love him lol. My point is it is okay to get on the soap box and announce upon high that yeah people should RP charisma more or better, but the truth of the matter is that the mafority of you seem to want to keep this a fun based, family rated G rp server. Now if we all Rp'ed Charisma a bit better then we wouldn't have the live and let live fun based attitude now would we? You can disagree and say but my cha does this and that sure fine and also I like the Family based 'lets be nice to each other thing' i want my 10 yr old boy to be able to play in this environment in a couple yrs time.

Intelligence. Who here can honeslty say that they have a higher IQ then Einstein? so how does a epic level 40 wizard with like int 30 have a guide to rp by? You just got to do the best you can do with the tools god gave you. (One reason I don't play Mages. HeHe.)

Wisdom. Also like Int. Who here has the Wisdom of Ghandi, or a Tibetan Master Monk? Any hands? So ya again just have to do the best RP you can based on your perception.

Also would like to note that you can possess high scores in all three of these statistics and yet you still have to actively USE them. You can decide that saving your best friend from a burning inferno is not a wise move yet it could be the right move and I am sure he / she would appreciate it and thank you for it, or they may have low charisma and say "what took you so long?" *shrugs*
Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence are in DnD as subjective as they are in RL, ya still gotta choose to do the wise thing , the intelligent thing and the charismatic thing. It's like I am sure Tony Robbins has cranky days, Ghandi did things at times that weren't wise but necessary and how many of us have seen intelligent people waste it?
So ya while the tips on Villany are great and thank you for them Diamond, i think its fair to say we come here to have fun and if abusing people in the street is your thing then whatever flotas ya boat eh but don't expect too many folks to jump up and help you grab ya corpse or do a quest eh hehe.
Peace
Den

[ZeroVega]

Denizen:

A couple things I noticed and sorta agree with, yet also have conflicting opinions about are Wisdom and Intelligence. Well you see, I see Intelligence up to a certain point as reasoning ability. Two + Two = Four sorta stuff. But after a while, say after 18, it gets into memorization of Lore, understanding the facets of Magic, the Weave, Tactical thinking, alchemial formulas. You have to understand that Einstein had a different level of Technology to work with than people on Layonara. So while today 160 may be an amazing IQ for the "above average" person, transplanting someone from Layonara to here and there would be no comparing the two. Different types of intelligence.

As for wisdom, I believe that falls under reasoning as well. Eithcs, decision making, and the separation and clarification of information. Again to a certain point. If someone devoted his entire life to the workings of philosophy, I truly believe that any one of us could be a Ghandi, however I don't think that happens here and most characters with wisdom are Clerics and Druids. So although all of the above is probably governed by wisdom to a certain point (say 18), after that it becomes more, in my opinion. More like an internal connection with your beliefs. Most clerics will have natural 18 Wisdom at level 8 or level 12, and that's when they really start becoming powerful anyway. But again, wisdom in Layonara (to me) isn't the same as the wisdom of the Real World.

Again, everything works on a different level. If it worked on the same levels then 18 Strength would be impossible. (Who can run with 200 lbs on his back?!) People would be limited to 100hp. We would have a Massive Critical system that would include being shot through the eye and instantly killed. Intelligence would max out at 18. We'd have great thinkers be put under house arest or burned at the stake for innovative ideas and philosophies. And last, but not least, magic would not exist! No magic, cause it isn't real. But lets be thankful Layonara doesn't work like the real world. Lets not compair the 30+ Intelligence of a fully buffed Wizard to Einstein, and lets be glad he didn't live long enough to be confused and possibly freaked out by us DnD RP junkies!  

[Ne'er]

I agree 100% with alot of those comments Denizen.

Its incredibly hard to play characters built on charisma, intelligence, and wisdom. After all, when your character ends up smarter than you, its tough to roleplay him like that, and when you're character is more proper than you know how to be, again, it can be tough. Of course, you can always make things up to sound more intelligent and wise. That's probably one of the only ways to solve that.

And yeah, I have noticed a large amount of overly good-looking people. Not saying that's bad but getting back to what Cole says, its tough to always look good when you are running around stabbing ogres and raiding tombs. You get scars and other facial deformaties, and then you also end up with burns and frostbite from enemy mages.

That said, Charisma doesn't really reflect appearance. At all, I think. Jet is an example. He has a charisma of 8, but I think most people have decided he's fairly good looking. Could be from the head I chose, or from his strength. And frankly, I never really paid much attention to how Jet looks, beyond eye, hair, and skin color. People made up their minds on their own for that one. However, anyone who knows Jet knows that he is quiet and prefers not to talk, and he loses his temper fast. He also has a tendancy of wording things completely wrong at the completely wrong time.

Now, back to the topic at hand. The evil thing is interesting, as I have had no characters as of yet that I saw working towards evil. A number of people thought my bard was going evil just because he was a stubborn jerk, but he was far too apathetic to ever truly become evil.

Also, evil visual effects come to mind. People have refused to make them because they are "evil" and "unholy" but at the same time they are just a red glow. Red armor isn't illegal or unholy, or otherwise Jet would have been arrested ages ago, and what's so bad about a red glow? Now, mind you loads of people seem to have them, mixed with their black clothing and it makes for a dark and gloomy appearance. And frankly, if you are a simple minded commoner who sees someone dressed all in black robes with a glowy red sword you may get suspicious and distrustful of that person. Doesn't mean you can convict them of being evil and hang them on the spot, but it may mean that you feel uneasy about them.

And about the evil gods. Frankly, I don't think it matters what your reasons are for worshipping Corath. If you do, people will label you as evil. Sure, he governs necromancy but then again, Lucinda is the goddess of the entire weave, so a mage could equally choose either if they were a necromancer. People know Corathites as dark, secret, and evil and as such if you wander around brandishing his shield or saying that you may follow him, it will create reason for you to be labeled as evil. Just like if you bear a symbol of Toran, it will label you as being overly-rightous. Just like in the real world, people will associate followers of a specific diety with a stereotype. And if you choose to follow Corath and display it, you have it coming.

Lastly about villians never triumphing, there was actually an interesting story my dad showed me about Norse mythology in which they believed the opposite: Good could never truly triumph. So, yeah, for the most part I agree the villians will never win, just thought that tidbit was interesting.