Tips for Villains

[Acacea]

Trying for a quick summary of the thousand topics in the thread... (You don't want to know how long it was, before.)

--You can improve the quality of roleplay and be "family friendly;" in fact I'm not sure what the two have to do with each other.

--The PCs are not the common, day to day NPCs we don't see in cities. They are the genius wizards. They are sorcerers who channel power through sheer force of will. They are the monks that can will their bodies to greater performance. Comparing attributes to those in "real life" makes little sense when most everything occurring in Layonara would be termed "impossible."

--No one is claiming that charisma is solely about physical beauty. That's not true. A charismatic general could be hideous, but be a great leader of men that inspires his followers. Saying, however, that it has nothing to do with appearance is blatantly false. I would flat out disagree that a person with a charisma of ten or below could be labelled "stunning," as "stunning" implies more than merely pretty. Stunning is head turning, people attracting, stance swaying. These things are the large part of what charisma is all about. If your character is wildly beautiful and alluring with a charisma of ten, they must have the hygiene of an ogre and the diplomacy of a spiked club.

--This thread was not intended (well, probably not intended) to harp on anyone who has a mean character or wears black; it was to point out that while it is completely possible for Evil to be Stupid and Obvious, Stupid and Obvious Evil does not live long. The only way Stupid Evil can prevail is with bigger muscles, and even then there is usually a Smart Evil pulling Stupid's strings. And it's extremely unlikely that an evil character will have the bigger muscles than all of the good characters here combined.

It's not meant as an insult to try and remind people of this as more start to head down darker paths, just an acknowledgement of a character type that is extremely difficult to play. The problem is not unique to this setting.

--The other problem with evil being obvious, is that there are OOC repercussions as well--characters can't respond to yours as they would and, perhaps, should. As above, if the evil guy tries to muscle his way through everything while announcing he's evil...the good guys with the bigger muscles should be able to simply smite him where he stands. They can't. That has to be accounted for.

--At no time do your attributes define your character's mannerisms or actions. They may be interpreted freely. The 20+ CHA sorcereress is not necessarily the equivalent to the english gentleman example used; is she not the darkly beautiful manipulator of energies through force of personality?  As she goes down her darker road, is she not taking people with her? The number does not say what is so attractive about your character, it just says that there is something; the what is left to you.

--I think the things covered in this thread should easily underline why evil has been restricted in Layonara; it's a very difficult thing to play, and since a huge amount of development is necessary for it, people have time to learn how to do it without getting their characters executed for being obvious. Guides and suggestions are not usually meant as insults, and if you feel that you have been, read it over a few times more.

--I very very much would like to see more evil characters in Layonara. I love villains. No one is saying that all the good characters running around are perfect; but there aren't really a lot of consequences for their actions. Evil has to be done well.

--Offering a blanket "do your thang" suggestion to problems, is not a solution at all.

--Good always prevails over Stupid Evil. Smart Evil is always pulling the strings of Good. So long as there are puppets, there will be puppeteers.

[LoganGrimnar]

just a comment on "evilish" chars, Evil might look like a fun thing, oh boy do whatever you want yadayada. But its not, Evil is a lonly road, when you have an evil/mean char, you cant simply travil with everyone. Alot of times you will find that you cant go anywhere becouse there is noone on that will withen RP travil with you. So keep that in mind when you think "oh how fun, lets make so-in-so Evil"

[Aragon]

Okay I want to comment on some of the things that Acacea has said (quite nicely I must say).

Having played an evil character for quite some time here on Layonara I think I should say a few things that go along with what Acacea has stated.

1)  Evil is a process on Layonara.  It is not an overnight thing.  You must be willing to dedicate substantial time to this character and show the GMs that you can be trusted to play an evil aligned character.  I am not sure of the exact time required, nor do I think there should be a hard fast rule, but rather should be left to the descretion of the GM team.

2)  All those people who have begun to worship evil deities need to remember one key fact .... you are not evil!  Acting like you are evil aligned before you truely are will delay your process.  Post your thoughts and feelings in a journal but RP your current alignment.  How can you expect to be allowed to play an evil character if you can't handle your current good one.  Now this is not to say that you can't have an occassional dark side but you must play your alignment.

3)  Evil on Layonara is not like what most think about when they say evil.  You are not going to be allowed to run around killing anyone and everything.  It is a restricted evil, you can plot and scheme but should you be found guilty of a crime, expect harsh punishments.

4)  Being evil IS a lonely road, even being CN is a lonely road.  Expect it, and RP your alignment as such.  Travel with those of like minds, you should not be traveling with followers of Toran or Rofrien.

5)  Don't be stupid.  Running up to Plenarius and insulting him cause you are evil is just plain dumb and you will get killed and Chanda will laugh at your stupidity.  Evil does not give you a license to insult good characters.  Even a good character has a tolerance level.

*gets down off soap box*

[Diamondedge]

Example of evil actions that would be perfectly legal on Layonara, as far as I can tell:

1) In the thick of battle, you and your wizard buddy are about to get smashed down. So you do the smart thing and goad the enemies towards the wizard, before high tailing it, knowing the life of the wizard should give you enough time to escape to safety.

2) Always taking a reward for whatever actions you have performed, should it be offered.

3) Not only refusing to help someone in need, but laughing at their sorrow, reminding them just what a sorry lot they're in.

4) Robbing loot, likely while hidden in the shadows or invisible behind someone, so that as they kill things, you get rich.

Some of those actions aren't -clearly- evil, but they certainly aren't 'good'.

Now that I've spilled the beans about Turor, Turor will not be doing anything bad in any way shape or form. He'll continue on with searching for his homeland and eventually clearing it of gobbos and duergars. I see three CDQ's in the future being dedicated to this.

And who says evil never comes out on top? Just the fact that wherever there are villains, there will be twice as many heroes to put them down. It's the way of D&D. Evil characters will certainly not succeed in Layonara, unless Sinthar allies himself with them.

[Deacon]

I think number one is griefing, since that could cause the wizard to die and would then be a form of griefing.  One thing that I always like to do while I'm traveling with goodies is to offer to loot so I can shorthand them on the gold.  I don't do it all the time, and I never shortchange them by a WHOLE lot, because that would be ovious...but 20 gold multiplied by four or five adds up after a while.  I never do this while I'm traveling with the Corathites or the other Baraeonites, simply because I have a sliver of respect for some of them, and I know that the Priestess could end my life at any time

[LoganGrimnar]

*note to self, never let him loot for me*

[xXDenizeNXx]

Acacea - 3/10/2006  10:43 AM  Trying for a quick summary of the thousand topics in the thread... (You don't want to know how long it was, before.)  --You can improve the quality of roleplay and be "family friendly;" in fact I'm not sure what the two have to do with each other.  No one was saying that the quality of roleplaying and being a family friendly environment were linked even, If you re-read what was wrote the you will find that it was implied that I personally thought (you may disagree with my thoughts thhat is entirely your choice btw but my own perception and strong belief is...) that the MAJORITY of folks like to keep it friendly, and what I meant by the whole family friendly example was that IF we had more folks rp there char 8 as walking up to someone in the street and abusing them it would not be family friendly and that would be a shame.  --The PCs are not the common, day to day NPCs we don't see in cities. They are the genius wizards. They are sorcerers who channel power through sheer force of will. They are the monks that can will their bodies to greater performance. Comparing attributes to those in "real life" makes little sense when most everything occurring in Layonara would be termed "impossible."  Once again no one said that the PC's WERE common day to day NPC's. (As a curiosity you therefore see yourself as 'common' then in RL? Thats is a shame because I always thought of myself as quite unique with no one else being quite like me.) What i was trying to get across, and was discussed very well i might add bu ZeroVega, Zero what you said in your reply to me made alot of sense mate, but I digress...so what I was TRYING to get across was the fact that for some people, some being the operative word, playing a char whois far more charasmatic, intelligent or wise then yourself can be hard. Of course if DnD were like RL we wouldn't be here having this discussion now would we?   --No one is claiming that charisma is solely about physical beauty. That's not true. A charismatic general could be hideous, but be a great leader of men that inspires his followers. Saying, however, that it has nothing to do with appearance is blatantly false. I would flat out disagree that a person with a charisma of ten or below could be labelled "stunning," as "stunning" implies more than merely pretty. Stunning is head turning, people attracting, stance swaying. These things are the large part of what charisma is all about. If your character is wildly beautiful and alluring with a charisma of ten, they must have the hygiene of an ogre and the diplomacy of a spiked club.  Once again this is your perception of Charisma but is it the correct perception? You seem to think so but alot would disagree with you, I for one. Looks are not Charisma, simple as that. Head Turning people might attract the type of people that are only interested in Aestetically pleasing things but a painting can be stunning and people attracting or a sunset head turning and I am pretty sure they have no Charisma. So we get back to what Diamond was actually saying about rping Charisma properly and hence my comment about 'family G rated friendly' and that point was ... That IF people did RP there charisma properly then we'd have alot of stuck up snobs and grumpy old men/women getting round scowling at each other which, as stated before, would be a shame to see.  Your attributes shouldn't define your charchters mannerisms and actions?  To me that is a ludicrous statement! So we should have int 7 people solving the riddle of the shadow box? Str 8 people trying to force a door open? Of course your attributes should guide your actions, that should be the platform from which you define your charachter before building the personality and eventually attributes may have nothing to do with who your charchter is but surely it has alot to do with how you will fit into your fantasy world initially. Heck i've even heard you state about Acacea that she isn't all that wise so that is why she hasn't learned from the last time she stuck her head in a box without fearing the consequences  Blanket statements were not offered to people as a fix but it was in fact stated that Layo was meant to be about Fun not Rules lawyering.  Roleplaying is about alot more then just hanging with the clique crowd or taking a cliche sterotype and playing it well and THAT is what Diamond was trying to get at IMO. Is that close Diamond? Or if I am off the mark I apologise.

[Acacea]

I was going to try and answer the points listed here but I am afraid most of the ones I attempted to make earlier have gone mostly misunderstood, and thus the replies to it seem to me, completely irrelevant and even contradictory in places. Rather than rephrasing every statement, I will just ask you to read it over again without grossly misinterpreting. As I spent about an hour trying to make it consise the first time (and ended up with the still-lengthy post), I'm not up to the rehash...

I'm unsure where half of these comments came from, though; roleplaying is of course more than hanging out with a crowd or playing a stereotype...but who are you arguing with? Where do these things come from?

If you honestly don't understand some of the things I was saying after reading it a few more times, feel free to PM me and I will explain away, or even catch me in-game. I don't really don't want this thread to degenerate any further than it already has (a lot), just for the sake of making myself understood, and I don't have the energy for more too-long replies that obviously fail to make themselves clear or productive.

[xXDenizeNXx]

? Dude??  nothing is degenerating anywhere lol
i too tried very hard to set it out well. Each paragraph is seperated by a space. Each of my points of rebuttle written directly under a previous topic.
At the end I make a summary statement based on the very first topic in this thread. Is that not clear to you because umm sorry if it isn't but to me after re reading a few dozen times I think the summary statement at the end quite clearly refers to the first post in the thread and even states almost most of the posters name lol
Are you implying I am ignorant or illiterate in some way that I cannot in fact understand what you have written? It is my hope that I do in fact understand what you have written or what did I just waste a good half hour rebutting? It seems to me that you seem to have attached some hidden meaning or code hidden within my text when I assure you that there is in fact none there to find. If you have a problem with me offering my opinion and continuing a discussion thread that interests me then by all means feel free to pm me and say so, it won't get you anywhere but because I feel my part in this discussion has been clear and productive. Some advice perhaps would be that if you do not feel that you can participate in an adult discussion thread where someone does not agree with you 100% then simply don't participate. It is clear to me that you are bored of the topic anyways so why waste the energy replying?

[Pankoki]

Everybody chill or I'm freezing this thread.  

[xXDenizeNXx]

It is 100 degrees here pan, send me some of that Winter weather will ya! it help chill me

[Diamondedge]

The intention of this thread was not to ellicit discussion, actually, but to provide some form of aid to those that seek to enrich the roleplay of their darker characters in such a way as is allowable by the rules and restrictions of the server. Therefore, I'd ask a DM to please freeze this thread, and perhaps delete any posts that aren't really at all useable as a resource. The bickering ones are a good place to start in that sense.

I'd like to apologize, then, for the inconvenience that this thread has brought. My bad.

[xXDenizeNXx]

No point to having a discussion board that you cannot discuss upon. Also no point to discussing anything with someone who hasn't got the maturity level to deal with being disagreed with and only defence is to call into question someones intelligence.  Apologise away but I say the amount of discussion you  inspired was a good thing until I tried to validate my points to a person who for some reason feels it is important to be right at all costs. So for this I apologise to you if that vexes you so but I for one feel no remorse for defending myself against some silly little snide remarks disguised as sugar coated sweetness.
Looks like you'll get your wish after this post anyways

[Pankoki]

[orange]Right.. this is silly beyond ridiculous. This thread is now locked.