Warning: Rabid Opinion. Beware of Debate. ;-)

[miltonyorkcastle]

Heh, right. Here goes:

[SIZE=24]Epic levels do not an epic character make.[/SIZE]

At least, not in the current incarnation of Layo. Blasphemous, you say? Let me explain.

Levels are not tied directly to a character's worldly influence/standing/impression/status/activity/achievments. Your character could be 30th level and while your friends may think of your character as powerful/influential/epic, the greater (NPC) populous of Layonara doesn't even know your character exists (and cares even less, with the possible exception of the hundred-thousand giants the PC killed). On the flip-side, your character could be 6th level and be credited with saving a thousand people and have his/her name engraved over a castle door. When the king is choosing someone to save his daughter, he'll be more inclined to ask the 6th level fellow known for saving the town rather than the 30th level fellow with nothing to his name despite the obvious OOC power difference.

In my opinion, this is why we historically haven't pushed/provided for (and still don't push) gaining levels.

Whether or not this is how it "should" be, I leave that to you to debate. I know some have claimed that by 20th level a PC should have such and such title/achievement/status, that it just doesn't seem possible that a PC could make it to that level without having worldly status. However, wordly status (in this incarnation of Layo) can only be gained through quests and GM adjucation. Put another way, you don't need a GM to gain levels, but you do need a GM to gain the title of "knight" or to save the king from an assassin's blade or to gain entry into a thieves guild. So I stand by my initial statement that epic achievment cannot be assumed by having epic levels.

I'm sure some folks who read the above went, "Duh." Just as I'm sure some read it and went, "Then why gain levels at all?"

[Lynn1020]

Absolutely agree that levels has nothing to do with a character's worldly influence/standing/impression/status/activity/achievments

I think levels mean nothing now.

Not sure what brought this up but I haven't heard anyone say that they thought just because they were a higher level that they should get more.

Amanda may be a high level wizard .. but she does not see herself as being powerful at all.

Now Emie is still up in levels but not powerful at all... But sees herself as important or more than a level  34 Wren or a 40 Storold

[miltonyorkcastle]

I think levels mean nothing now.

And yet, one of the biggest requests is for more XP bonuses for RP. If levels mean nothing, then XP means nothing. If XP means nothing, why would anyone want to work so hard to get it?

(Just exploring the lines of thought, here. No good or bad labels.)

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I think the only area in which I would argue for XP is to reach level 20 to be able to do a WLDQ.  But at the same time, if your PC has done nothing to build a reputation and therefore have some sort of role to play in the world (other then being able to kick a lot of butt) the XP won't get you much farther

[Shiokara]

While some advocate for more RP xp, others advocate for more impromtus and DM interactions. In the other thread I believe I remember someone saying, "I'd rather see someone and RP a little than get a 5000xp tap from a GM." I'm paraphrasing here, but I think the other side of the argument is worth mentioning.

Levels, I think, do matter. Perhaps not so much at higher levels, but levels matters because there are so many places I can't go, and will never see, just because the risk factor is too great for my lower-level characters. When one spell, or non-CCed ambush can take you down, resulting in a lot of down time where you have to run back and such, it's just better not to go at all. So levels matter for all that world out there waiting for players like me to explore it.

I feel like this thread is somewhat related to a topic in the PMs, Quests, and CDQs thread talking about the belief that, "Epic characters want to do epic things". Milty, here, seems to be arguing that just because your character is epic does not mean he is entitled to epic things, quests, etc.

"Epic levels do not an epic character make." Wise words, but for the sake of devil's advocate, I will argue that Epic levels give characters more potential to be an epic character. You may want to argue otherwise, but if players can be told, "This task would be difficult even for an epic character to achieve, there's no way your character could do it" when trying to solve a problem, then levels do matter.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Pssst...

I think we should have a level limit of 20 again...

*snickers and hides*

[Kaail]

*spot check*

Spot Check: 7 + 1 = 8

Poo...where'd he go?


Anyway, I think you are right. But epic levels do help, such as getting rarer items e.g. platinum or something where bigger monsters hide and such.

[Tanman]

"This task would be difficult even for an epic character to achieve, there's no way your character could do it" when trying to solve a problem, then levels do matter.

I have never heard say that, at least not in the forums. Its the way your character is played and developed is what is important...and that is what truly makes it for a makings of an epic character.

*spot check*
 
Spot Check: 7 + 1 = 8
 
Poo...where'd he go?
 
 
Anyway, I think you are right. But epic levels do help, such as getting rarer items e.g. platinum or something where bigger monsters hide and such.

While it is true that you may potentially see more of the world when higher level...based In the case in point it doesnt matter...Correct me if I am wrong and you are portraying something else Milty, but an epic character is simply someone who has impacted the world through things like being a leader in quests. Or taking initiative to do things when DMs bring things up in quests.

I can see these kind of people in my quests.  I have seen characters that are level 11 in a quest filled with epic level characters ...and they can get the quest moving forward by taking action through their rp. . .I am not denying that yes, higher levels means more muscle...but that to me means nothing ....in quests or in the influence/position within the Layonara world.

On another note ...I would like to put it out there...the makings of an epic character is also to gain the  respect from -both- the playerbase and the Layonara world.

[Lynn1020]

I feel like this thread is somewhat related to a topic in the PMs, Quests, and CDQs thread talking about the belief that, "Epic characters want to do epic things". Milty, here, seems to be arguing that just because your character is epic does not mean he is entitled to epic things, quests, etc.

Ahh okay makes sense. But that is not what I am saying at all in my post.  I was referring to trying to pull others in and not exclude them.  I realize that my character is going to get what I put forth the effort to do.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I feel like this thread is somewhat related to a topic in the PMs, Quests, and CDQs thread talking about the belief that, "Epic characters want to do epic things". Milty, here, seems to be arguing that just because your character is epic does not mean he is entitled to epic things, quests, etc.

It is a spin-off, actually. Correct. Which is why I brought it to a new thread rather than cluttering Lynn's, since as she points out this does not directly have to do with what she brought up.

"Epic levels do not an epic character make." Wise words, but for the sake of devil's advocate, I will argue that Epic levels give characters more potential to be an epic character. You may want to argue otherwise, but if players can be told, "This task would be difficult even for an epic character to achieve, there's no way your character could do it" when trying to solve a problem, then levels do matter.

Ah. So if an epic level character has more potential for gaining worldly status (whether it be defined as epic or not), does this mean that gaining wordly status is Layonara's "endgame" (if you've played an MMO, you know to what I'm referring)? I mean, certainly you can start impacting the world from level one, but higher potential loosely translates to better odds (as Shiokara pointed out) and at the very least more options. Why not wait until you've gained twenty-five levels, then start working on worldly status? That way you're not caught up trying to gain levels (or put the more RP politically correct way, training the skills you need to compete on the world stage) and handle world plots at the same time. Why would anyone want to waste time trying to accomplish something world-altering at a sub-par potential?

(Still just talking through lines of thought; not saying one thing is bad or good here.)

[jrizz]

1. Levels = things you can do outside of GM intervention (meaning quests and such)
2. World influence/standing/impression/status/activity/achievements = things you can get done inside GM intervention (quests) and in RP situations.

There is one more thing that you left out:

Time in the world. There is a big difference between a PC that has been in the world for 12 to 24 months real time and a PC that has been in the world for 4+ years (of course a short time PC can tip the scales by saving a town or other such world achievements). So you also gain reputation by being around a long time. 1 year equals something like 12 years or so. When you have PCs that are non WLs but have been active in the world and some plots and other quests for more the 40 or 50 years you just have to believe that they are well known. So to the the above list I would add.

3. Time involved in the world = worldly reputation

NOTE: When you bring 1, 2, and 3 together in a PC that is when you get a true WL.

Time put in does matter.

[Chongo]

"EPIC LEVELS DO AN EPIC CHARACTER UNMAKE"

Be sure to avoid them.  They probably make you look bad.

[Acacea]

[yailwap]

I admit I only skimmed some of the replies because I'm on lunch at work, but I'd just like to kind of mildly add that I believe that levels matter in the sense of there being a balance to how much it matters. I think if you have a level 40 fighter or something, then why should they be doomed to "who is that guy?" or "we'd rather have the level 23 terribly built fighter take care of this horde" ?

Like I said, there is a balance - it's not about builds or how many levels you have, and certainly there is a lot of influence to be gained without ever leveling at all. I always wondered what was so great about RP XP anyway, because I have always found it odd for, say, my martial character to level by sitting on benches. Or my caster to level by gossiping about who is dating whom. Can they have influence without ever leveling? Oh yeah, absolutely. I will completely vouch for that on several different levels, both as someone who has been there at lower levels, been out at higher levels, and witnessed some low leveled characters become known for some pretty cool things. I got used in DM quests when Acacea was probably level 10 or less just straight out of social influence. Now she's level 36 and isn't used at all. It's all perception. Time available is probably the most valued currency, heh.

But on the flip side, I have also seen high leveled characters mostly bulldozed over in quest situations because they don't spend enough time on a bench - it's one thing to not be renowned for saving cities and whatnot, or owning guilds, or having networks of spies, but I dislike when we start implying, for example, that Amanda is a less powerful wizard than someone else, just because her player doesn't think her influence level is that high. She is a caster. She has spell levels and DCs. If she is powerful, then she is powerful! Don't bring down people who are good at what they do just to put people who maybe aren't on a pedestal, you know? (Sorry Lynn, just replying to your earlier example.)

WLs are not better at everything in a class, and really often don't even compete in at least a few areas. Take a couple in an arena, heh - some will wipe the floor with you, others will never let themselves be put there in the first place Some are not even made to compete - they are made to be different, and their trials and influences have allowed that to be a workable difference. It's okay and good for people to be impressed by sheer competence in a non-WL, y'know? All time spent is an investment, there's no reason to get all mad when someone has a high skill check and it seems unfair because they're not "really epic."

And while you can gain a lot of influence regardless of level (I think of it as just being horizontal progress), it is an unfortunate fact that right now social skills scale with level, and time spent talking it up will never help you solve problems of the cosmos... and you can't sub for WL until level 20, as mentioned, and CDQs do not give XP. You CAN level solely through quests and bench RP, but that gets into an old and tired discussion heh.

It may not be a direct response, but I kind of feel it's relevant because I've seen this whole "you're higher level but you better know you have less influence!" kind of who has the bigger uh... staff... comparing that just seems pointless. Giving a nod to people that DO have epic abilities regardless of WL status doesn't bring down the people with the title, and if it does then you are doing something wrong with your WLs.

It also sucks to see people scaling up DCs all the time to match so that things people could give a hand in 15 levels ago are still difficult, mind blowing challenges, or information is just whoa so uber secret you can't possibly know it, y'know? The broken magic areas for example have some astoundingly high DCs that no one can co-op on... and I can't imagine even a Lucindite trying to tackle those on their own - it's part of their whole doctrine, but there is no opportunity to involve others, just hope you can do it solo (and that should be seriously unlikely for everyone but Storold).

To end a very long and rambly post, an example comes to mind when Acacea was asked to find someone quite difficult to find via magic. Because of a key factor she was aware of, she felt that she was capable, but that she did not have the skill to remain undetected and thus would be endangering both herself and the party sought.

She advised the help of two casters - both had epic levels, one was a WL and the higher level one was not. She was experienced with the sheer ability of the latter and felt they had the capability needed, but was not as experienced directing the ability in that fashion. The WL she felt had decades of experience in creative casting and study, and would be more than able to come up with a way to hide them. Between the two of them she thought it would be super solid.

Whether or not it was a good idea or not, the only real point is that abilities are abilities. There is room for everyone and we are without need to downgrade. In fact, I believe that it is WLs who should be approaching a lot of these people for the dual purposes of helping themselves and also involving others.

All done!

[/yailwap]


brought to you by an unposted lunch hour.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Alrighty. So assuming I can extrapolate correctly from Acacea's post, levels do matter, the reason being that they are the means of representing (trained or innate) ability.

So then the next set of questions are, since the nature of being epic is what started this thread, what makes a character "epic"? Is it their level of ability and skills? Or is it the impact they've made on the world, impact meaning some title/achievement/status? Is it a combination of both? If both, which is more important? And if both, the question still remains, why attempt to influence the world with sub-par skills (why wait to level up to epic)?

EDIT: To include the length of time a character has been active (read: not a farmer) in world, per Jrizz, if we assume all three are required to make an epic character, how long is long enough?

[jrizz]

I still stay it is three things that come together to make a epic character. Level, impact on the world, and time in the world.

[s0ulz]

Maybe swindling some distance away from the current heated discussion, but my question is: why are we so obsessed with the term epic?

You say that levels don't make a character epic in influence, just boost their mechanical capabilities, but in my opinion the term isn't used the right context in first place.

Epic levels or epic characters are part of the DnD system that NWN incorporates and is intended for only one thing - establishment of mechanical power above a certain threshold. Epics have more levels than non-epics. That's it. Now on the other hand we are trying to label epic levels as something they're not meant to represent. Having levels over 20 has never meant anything more than having a mechanical edge in more ability and skill points and feats. Dinging 21 does not mean you are different in any other way from a level 20 character, besides a mechanical advantage.

The current discussion however should be in the context of a virtual living-breathing world. Layonara shares NWN's mechanical structure, but on top of this lays a completely separate scale of influence. Layonara's biggest selling point has always been that every player has the opportunity to make a difference and this has never been about levels, but influence and actions.

Layonara has made its very own iteration of epicness - a world leader. World leaders are meant to be the sort of epic characters you envision - they've got physical capabilities to attempt something great represented by reaching the level 20 barrier (even if you level on quests, leveling means advancement in character abilities) AND they've got enough influence through action to be considered epic.

That's it. That's the only distinction Layonara makes between it's characters and what you call epic. Every other variation, like low level characters who have influence through character relations or being popular, are meant to be the exception. Epic can only be used as an adjective for them, but do not mix different meanings of the word in Layonara's context.

In the past when the ECDQ rule at level 20 was enforced, there was no question, anyone above level 20 was epic in both mechanical levels and influence. There was a certain mystification of the Epics with that barrier. However, after relaxing the rule and allowing people to mechanically cross the level 20 point, the World Leader entity was introduced to replace it.

After that event, having epic levels have never meant to represent influence or power the same way they did before. It was only done to allow more flexibility to the ECDQ/WLDQ process, due to the quests cluttering up and to allow people with no WL aspirations to level up mechanically and enjoy the mechanical benefits. In my opinion it's very clear that after that point, people's mindset regarding epic levels should've shifted towards the new WL paradigm, but clearly it didn't. And that's the problem.

So to conclude, I'm not ranting or denying you from debate, but I think before any headway can be made in demystifying epic levels from the ambiguity of having both epic proportions of mechanical power and influence or achievements, we need to put it into Layonara's context - characters  with epic aspirations are meant to graduate into World Leader status, before that happens (or if the character does not fit the bill due to other variables) you are just a regular PC in the world no matter how many bench hours you log or IC friends you have.

I'm not trying to sound or propagate elitism through that last paragraph, but I think that's exactly what the WL in an IG sense means - graduation into epic levels, in both, the mechanical and influential sense. Epic levels is a NWN term, in Layonara you either are a WL or everyone else -that's the distinction Layonara chose to make after relaxing the 20 rule.

[Pseudonym]

Heh, right. Here goes:

Epic levels do not an epic character make.

At least, not in the current incarnation of Layo. Blasphemous, you say? Let me explain.

... yada yada yada ...

For the sake of encouraging this healthy debate, I ask if you can name ten 'epic' characters that are/were below level 20?

If you can, was this substantially harder than naming ten who are/were above level 20?

[minerva]

Chanda
 Perago
 Duur
 Vin
 Jharl
 Muireann
 Enzo
 Quintaine
 Celgar
 Ramanon
 Buppi
 Bilvikki
 Hargnar
 Bumblebee
 Lia
 Marcus
 Derrick
 
 few more than 10 - some are over the 20 mark but they made their mark before they ever hit 20
 It wasn't all that difficult but the odd thing is they are players not here at all or much any more and most started before leveling past 20 was permitted without significant world involvement.
 Of course this is just my 2 true.

[Carillon]

Warning! Carillon is about to get all philosophical and verbose. Feel free to skip ahead to the next post--or if you are feeling indulgent, read on!

If you haven't noticed, I like words. I really, really like them. I read many words a day, I have a list of my 100 favourite words in the English language, and I decided I liked words so much I even became an English teacher. (Read: my love of language impaired my judgment, especially in regards to financial earning potential!) And so, in a tribute to language, I offer a dozen potential synonyms for "epic" to further this healthy debate. As s0ulz points out, the term "epic" is being used in several--sometimes ambiguous!--contexts and has its own peculiar connotations and "emotional baggage", so let's unpack that a bit. Which one is your version of "epic"?

1. High Level: A character who has achieved many mechanical character levels in one or more classes. As a synonym for "epic", this number is usually 21 or greater.

2. Highly (Mechanically) Skilled: A character who has great ability or skill in some arena, such as combat, magic, class skills, feats, etc. Mechanical class abilities, attack bonuses, attributes, skill points, feats, etc. should always support the character's claim to skill. In other words, one could test whether or not they were highly skilled with mechanics such as rolls or combat.

3. Highly Skilled (RP version): A character who has great ability or skill in some arena. These abilities or skills may not be represented by NWN mechanics and may have been gained through RP, CDQs, or other sorts of development. One may not  be able to directly test their skill level with mechanics. (For example, perhaps your character is highly skilled in sculpting. Does that make them an "epic sculptor"? Does this have anything to do with just being plain old "epic"?)

4. Influential: A character who is capable of affecting change in or exerting influence upon the world or its inhabitants in some way. Influential characters need not be high level--though some argue this might help. Perhaps influential characters need not even exert this influence, but merely possess the ability!

5. Accomplished: A character who has successfully affected change in the world and done great deeds (either good, evil or in between). One should be able to point to specific achievements OOCly if not ICly to conclude a character is accomplished.

6. Lauded: A character who is praised for his or her accomplishments or deeds. This praise might come in the form of accolades, public recognition, titles, or simply many pats on the back.

7. Famous: A character who is well known. (See also: infamous). The character may be well known for his or her accomplishments, actions, abilities, attitude ... or probably several other alliterative nouns I am forgetting! Note: it is not necessary for others to feel the character should be well known for these things, only that they are.

8. Powerful: A character who has power. Another slippery definition--what kind of power? Physical power? Political power? Mental prowess? Power to do what? Whether or not a character is powerful seems to depend as much on the arena as the character. Some might assume "powerful" refers to ability to knock someone else on their butt in combat. Some might see it as a synonym for influential.

9. Important: A character who is worthy of note, and who has great significance and value. A character's importance might take the form of an official position or status that they hold, but characters who do not hold an official position of any kind may still be considered important in other contexts. A character's importance may be interpreted as their value on quests or in the world. Who defines that importance is up for debate!

10. Established: A character who has been in game long enough to gain a reputation of sorts, or a measure of acceptance (either IC or OOC) if not necessarily respect. A familiar presence, or a developed character. A character who has hollowed out some niche for himself or herself, and who is now vested in the world.

11. Respected: A character who has managed to garner the respect of other PCs and/or NPCs in some way. Characters need not be high level, accomplished, famous, lauded or highly skilled to become respected. Being respected may make a character more influential, however, and therefore potentially more powerful.

12. World Leader: Since it has been suggested that this is Layo's version of "epic" ... a character who is at least level 21, who has been approved for and successfully completed a WLDQ in which they demonstrated ability and skill, influenced the world, accomplished a great (or terrible) deed, gained a further degree of influence or power, and may have been lauded and become famous.


So ... which one of the above is "epic" to you? Which versions of "epic" matter to you personally, and which could you care less about? How do these definitions intersect? If you take nothing else away, perhaps remember that people indeed use the term "epic" in many different ways. The next time it comes up in OOC conversation or debate, take a moment and ask yourself how you and others are using the word, and what you are really saying. If nothing else, clarity may make a discussion more productive, or even keep it from disintegrating into an argument.

[/verbose][/philosophical]


p.s. If I have made any poor soul insatiably curious, I might be persuaded to dig up my favourite words list, just to keep you from going mad with wondering.

[Carillon]

Psst. Minerva ... I think Kali deserves to be on that list too! I'm sure there are others as well. Just that was the name that popped into my head.