What do you want from Layonara?

[Gulnyr]

3/ Double or even triple hourly XP for WL's who attend quests. Give them the importance they have earn't and the incentive to be out there amongst the player populations.

I am not convinced that XP is the main incentive for WLs.  There are even a few WL characters who are already level 40, so XP is not an incentive at all there, really, right?  Speaking for myself, Jennara is not level 40 yet, but is closing in on it in a hurry at the current XP reward level.  I don't attend quests for the XP but for the story and interaction.

I'm also not convinced WLs aren't present and involved.  The WL index lists twenty-one characters.  Check out the list and you'll easily see two major categories and one important minor one.  The first major category is absent characters, whose players are either absent from Layonara or busy on the MMO team.  Lalaith and Plenarius are in that group, either never seen anymore or only rarely.  The other major group is active characters, who are played by active players.  Acacea, Storold, Connor.  Arkolio fit here, too.  The minor group is characters in a sort of flux, like Kobal.  Harlas is here and very involved, but his involvement sometimes means he can't get his character into the game.  Look at the group of active WLs.  Are you going to get Fenrir to be around more by throwing more XP at him?  (I don't mean to speak for you, s0ulz.)  Look at the group of inactive WLs.  Will increasing the payout make Rhizome show up more?  Should it?  I don't think so.

As to importance, I'm not sure how other WLs are handled.  I only have my own experience of it.  I'm actually pretty satisfied with the way Jennara is treated by DMs and their NPCs.  It generally seems appropriate to the situation.  I understand that Jennara's case may be easier to handle than some others, though, since there isn't anything particularly mysterious or esoteric about who she is or what she's done or where she fits.

4) I want characters to be defined by the person as opposed to the class. Make the class requirements (not the mechanical ones) more bendy, and allow the player a chance to fit his/her character's personality into the class.

*nods* I have [post=378844]long felt[/post] that fluff text is more or less disposable and that a character should start as a concept and then be "built" into that concept by choosing the classes that best fit.  Gulnyr the Grim was not a Rogue/Fighter but a tunnel scout who was best realized by a combination of Rogue and Fighter levels.  Jennara is not a Monk but a very pious, drafted soldier who is best realized by the Monk class.  The classes should bend to accommodate player imagination, though I am not opposed to specifically defining PrCs and giving them specific places in the world, e.g. the Purple Dragon Knight renamed the Knight of the Silver Shield, say, and associated only with a specific military training academy with its own traditions and oaths; if you want to have a Knight of the Silver Shield character, you have to attend the academy and accept their traditions and oaths (aka request and pass a CDQ).


Acacea says good things.

[G.Giant]

Hey, so I've been lurking around a little as I'm thinking of giving this server another shot...  And this thread seems like a decent place for a new player to vent.  

I really want to like Layonara, but the hurdle of getting started is HUGE.  I can go to Arelith or FRC Cormyr with a new character concept and be up and running with a good group of quality RPers that afternoon.  Not here, you have to wait for someone who obviously has other things to do to notice your submission, and then invariably there will be some minor changes requested that will delay you for days longer.  I can absolutely guarantee you than many a great RPer has walked on by because of the bureaucracy.  

My suggestion?  Keep your character submissions, but if someone is playing a basic race and class let them jump right in.  Meaning, let them submit and then create a character and get started right away.  Work with them AS THEY'RE PLAYING to get the submission up to your Lore standards.  If they want something off the beaten path (dark elves, etc.) of course keep the submission process as is; but if I want to play a human wizard please don't make me wait a week because I made a lore mistake.  You have plenty of safeguards in place to protect the lore along the way (as well as other players and DMs to correct you.)  Maybe a few will have to restart an occasional character, maybe you'll have to ban a (very) occasional bad apple, but that's okay.

I get why it's in place, and how things probably were a few years ago when this was a popular game, but I think the landscape is different today not that NWN is, like, 8 years old.  Most new arrivals will be NWN veterans (they barely even sell this game in stores anymore, after all) and there will be far more good apples than bad.  You need new players, you need veterans playing new characters.  The other servers I mentioned, they're around all the time, and feel much, much more lively because of it.

I also think far too much "creative writing" is required as far as motivations and all that for even the most basic of characters.  Role playing is about improvisation as much as preparation.  Sometimes you don't realize your characters' motivations and personality quirks until you're in their skin for a while.  I know I certainly don't.   Some times you also realize you just aren't as into the character as you thought you would be (as in, realizing you just don't like playing bards or gnomes) and want a fresh start; again, that's by no means easy to do here.  

Second.. I get the sense that this will be a great world especially when you get to go on DM quests, but the starting areas are absolutely unwelcoming to new players.  In the main city the only appropriate quest (sewers) is somewhere no 1st level character will reasonably find on their own.  The only real help is a captain who will give you a quest (the kobolds) that's absolute suicide for a low level.  The crypts are a little easier to find  in Vehl, but again you have no help from where you appear.  

I get that you want to encourage experienced players to show the newbies around, but you can't rely on that, especially during off-peak hours.  There just isn't a large enough playerbase right now, and it's kind of an unfair burden to place on established characters.   From my experience I saw absolutely no traffic in Vehl when I was starting out to ask for help IC,  I had one nice OOC offer for help but couldn't take it at the time, and when I tried to play again I asked some others OOC for help and they were friendly but too busy with their own thing to rush to wherever I was to show me around.  I'm surprised I even stumbled upon the other city, frankly, as most of my explorations around the starting area led to quick death.  Even a few more helpful NPCs to direct you would be nice.  I know there's not much you can do at this point in the game to rearrange the maps or whatever, but I really wonder how much consideration was given to guiding the complete novice.  

Just a random thought but since you have so few new chars, I almost think you should just start new characters at a viable level (like 5) where they won't die immediately if they try to explore, and/or increase the XP rate to help people quickly get to a level where they can join groups and take part in quests (that seems to be somewhere around level 9 or 10?)

I certainly don't think people should get free epic status but the XP barrier to slow people down in the early levels might just be too much at this point in the server's life.  Four years ago it might have made sense to keep people at level 5 or 6 for a month, but then I'm assuming you had many other people of that level around to RP and bash stuff with, and there were many years ahead to take your time developing that character.  Neither of those is the case now, and it seems like you're just forcing folks to grind solo though low-content, low level stuff for busywork's sake because that's what you're supposed to do.

That's just my impression; this place feels like an unwelcoming private club, and I hope you guys give some thought to lowering the barriers.  That is, if new players is even something you actually want; I'm not entirely convinced it actually is.  

Hope I didn't step on any toes here, and of course this is all purely one outsider's opinion just 'cause you asked.  Kind of.  And feel free to take it all with a grain of salt, I don't mean for it to sound as preachy as it does but that's what tends to happen with one-sided writing.

Thanks.

[jrizz]

The NWN Layo is very restrictive in character creation. What we seem to reward and encourage are basic classes played by the "big four"; human, elf, dwarf, halfling. Read through the character submissions and that's clear. And my point in another thread stands: in part because of this, we grow very slowly and have become rather alt-dependent to keep things fresh. And those alts are often much more challenging concepts, to keep the game interesting for people who have been here for years.
 

 
 

 3) I want to embrace the new players. New blood will keep the server fresh and alive. I hate to see a new player be stuck in character approval for 3 weeks and then give up and leave us, never even having seen the server. (Sorry CA team, a ton of respect for your amazing work, not so much for the current strict process). When I started here I was such a noob, both with nwn and Layo lore. I learned from playing and RP'ing with others, and still do
 

 
 

 I really want to like Layonara, but the hurdle of getting started is HUGE. I can go to Arelith or FRC Cormyr with a new character concept and be up and running with a good group of quality RPers that afternoon. Not here, you have to wait for someone who obviously has other things to do to notice your submission, and then invariably there will be some minor changes requested that will delay you for days longer. I can absolutely guarantee you than many a great RPer has walked on by because of the bureaucracy.
 

 
 I said this was going to be an issue to player base growth more then a year ago. Now it seems to be an issue. So I would really like to see the CA process lighten up, a lot.

[jrizz]

5) I want it to be easier to meet other characters. A looking for group list? It's a big world today, and often with few players. 4 years ago the world center was Hlint and the max level was 20 (except for a rare few). This led to a much higher concentration of like-level characters in the same areas. Lifting of the level split rule was a big step in the right direction!
 

 
 
 This is such a key point and even more so when you have a big world with a small player base. How do you find other players? Simple, I would like the server status page to show where players are. Why does that have to be top secret information?

[jrizz]

The counter-argument being it might encourage those otherwise condemned to perma-death during the Green Mile to do something of significance during levels 1-19 such that they would feel comfortable applying for World Leader when they hit 20?
 
 As Dorg stated, I know this is not a debate thread - but that thought occurred to me as I was pondering jrizz's post.

 
 
 I would like to see WLs be truly special and held to extremly high standards. Of course part of this means that not every PC should have to be a WL in order to progress.

[blonde]

Acacea says good things.

She sure says ALOT of things, once in a while she is bound to hit a good one! Kidding! I liked it all. :p

Thought of one more thing though. I want openness and transparency and willingness to change and listen to the player base. So a big thanks to Dorg for opening the floodgates here. Lots of good things have been said in this thread I think.

[EdTheKet]

I do not plan to comment on anything said in this thread until it has run its course, and then only maybe. The primary reason is time, but also to give you all a chance to speak without my influence.

I can echo Dorg, but I can say already that many an interesting suggestion has been made already.

[cbnicholson]

Entertainment, a good story, more players really feeling the characters.

More opportunities for non combat XP!  

I have other wants, but they sound more like rants when I type them out so I'll leave off there. :\

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I also agree with the idea that Characters should not be defined by their Classes, despite the fact that some characters are based on the "Class" they Have.  (Paladins come to mind).  Having a Character that is a 5/8/7 Rogue/Fighter/WeaponMaster Split, one might not think that those 5 rogue levels have anything to do with the Character, but anyone who knows Tyra knows that she is slowly becoming a Ninja/Assassin type, despite her handicap of only have 5 "rogue" levels.  I Agree with how someone put it (I can't reference who atm) said that class descriptions should not be what define a character, especially since we are stuck in a class-based engine, when we are moving toward are open skill based engine.
 
 I also believe that WLs should be allowed to continue with aspirations prior to their WL.  Unless you become a God, I think anyone should be able to keep going after ambitions, even should those ambitions conflict with whatever their WLDQ put them (e.wx Angela's new ambition conflict with being the Diet of Lor or perhaps with whoever Angela answers to/works with).
 
 What else...  IF you guys, as the Developers, could somehow give the players SOME chance at creating unique or inventive "items" for players to use.  I don't know what can be considered unique or inventive.  However, much like DMs offer up time to get Characters in costume for parties, or offer to enscribe things on items, perhaps offer some time to be various "specialty" merchants, selling things that players my want an existing "item" to represent it.  Maybe things like a grappling hook, a whetstone, religious iconography, kingdom iconography...  I donno...  Just a thought  

[Pen N Popper]

I'd love to see a way to encourage two to six hour per week players to play. Something to think about for the MMO perhaps but could be tested and refined here. (Yes, same old PnP wishing for a time-based leveling system.) Can I buy my way up?

You may think what I'm suggesting is violating some blood oath of RP. Keep an open mind instead and look around at today's gaming world. Lots of fun and profit to be had out there. Find a way to embrace the masses and encourage the core.

Social Games: How The Big Three Make Millions

You have the creativity to make it happen.

[SteveMaurer]

Here are a few other things that I think would help Layonara...
 
 Reduce power-gaming incentives:
 

• [strike]Remove map level restrictions. Despite all the complaints about power-gaming, the world is set up to reward high level PCs. Right now, only a single one of my characters can even enter an Advanced Crafting Hall, for instance. And I have a terrible time trying to figure out what the RP justification for this is.[/strike] - was told this was already done
  
• Revisit, and lower, many item level restrictions. Again, this focuses all the rewards to high level PCs. If you win a RP contest, you can't even take the best item unless you're willing to put off using it until you've power-leveled. Similarly, a lot of armor is effectively unusable because the level restrictions prevent it from being used until the PC is facing monsters that bypass it. A LR 22 item with a DR 5/+3 is silly, for instance. Actually, any items that requires you to be "epic" seems odd - how many epic characters are there?
• Allow Epic CDQs again - meaning CDQs whose intent is to change the world, but do not necessarily have WL status attached to them. Allow any PC to attempt such a quest before level 20. Otherwise, the incentive is power leveling.
• Change the out of game alignment restrictions to be based on playing hours, and not levels. "You must have a level X PC to have a CN PC" should be "You must have played for 20+ hours and gone on 3 GM quests", or something equivalent.
• Questing XP bonuses should not be strictly percentage based on the level of the PC, but graduated.
• Try to have at least one major plot line that doesn't have combat as its core focus. When you have to be a legendary combat caster or fighter to be involved in any major component of the Dragon Storm plot, it will lead to people desiring to level quickly.

Reduce bureaucracy:
 

• Make the alignment system reactive. Players shouldn't have to "apply" for an alignment. A GM who sees a particularly consistent roleplaying of a different alignment should be able to nudge the alignment meter.
• The above said, tell GMs to assume that most players are playing the alignment they signed up for, the way they see that alignment. Even "good" people have a bad day, even "evil" people may to something ostentatiously nice (especially in the presence of others, or the authorities). When a problem does happen, GMs should PM the player asking their reasoning first, and asking if they're looking for a change. Disputes would likely be rare.
• Rather than funneling the world definition all through Ed, he should delegate some aspects off to GMs, so that answers don't get held up for so long.
• Explicitly reserve the right to "redo", so that a quick decision can be given. The answer to a PC with some small, undiscussed, world definition in their bio should be "You are Conditionally Approved (we may have to tweak the background a bit)". Same thing for letting GMs try a new thing. Players are more forgiving of an 'oops' than you may think; certainly more than constant team delay.

World definition:
 

• The proper answer to a world question, from the team, should never be "I don't know". That seems especially odd coming from Ed. If you don't know, who does? Just make something up!
• World definition should be focused, not on obscure kingdoms in the middle of nowhere (which would be better left as some GM's playground anyway), but on places the PCs regularly frequent. The Lore has more explanaton of the politics and leadership of the Sun Kingdom than it does Port Hempstead or Fort Vehl! Why, if it's (reputably) illegal to use poison in Port Hempstead, is there a poison crafting station?
• For the love of all creation, please change CNR to be plausible. My sense of disbelief is entirely destroyed reading advertisements for boxes of chicken eggs listed in the thousands of gold pieces. How about cockatrice eggs instead? Instead of Yew, how about Magewood? (etc.)
• Focus in the world description more on things of dramatic interest, that would allow your GMs to create plots. Less on travellogue style descriptions.
• Make the world less "cartoony", especially in regards to deities. Other people have written more eloquently about this than I, but it is something to do.

General Gaming Style:
 

• Try to base decisions with the general idea that players already buy into Layonara as a roleplaying server, and that you do not have to act as a munchkin police. You make a lot of problems for yourself trying to prevent problems that are actually very small.
• Consider carrots rather than sticks in terms of RPing. Don't be afraid to be unfair in terms of wanding out XP. The PC who solved the puzzle, the one who came up with the idea that saved the party... those people should be rewarded above and beyond the normal XP bonus.
• In a similar light, understand that some players simply enjoy taking on combat challenges, and they are not at fault that NwN (through implementing DnD) gives disproportionate rewards for doing so. But rather than get mad at the players, simply tilt things in the opposite direction (*).
• Encourage GMs to run many smaller impromptu quests rather than massive server-crashing fests, where players can literally wait 10 minutes between a response, and the GM can't even read the chat log it's going by so fast. I think those drive people away from being a GM anyway.
• Focus on making GMing fun. Seriously, for the player base you have, you really need more GMs. This is the main reason there isn't as much RPing going on. People get bored, so they go crafting or bashing.

(*) In my own PnP game, of a game system of my own design, XP for "work experience" in a particular skill is limited, but you can use money to "buy training" (i.e. go to school, which also gives you XP). There is absolutely nothing that would prevent Layonara from cutting combat XP down, but having "schools" that let players trade Gold for XP.

[Gulnyr]

Allow Epic CDQs again - meaning CDQs whose intent is to change the world, but do not necessarily have WL status attached to them. Allow any PC to attempt such a quest before level 20. Otherwise, the incentive is power leveling.

I'm not opposed, but there might be some misconception behind this one.  The current WLDQs aren't necessarily about changing the world, normal CDQs can potentially lead to changes, changing the world doesn't require a CDQ at all, and "making a mark" to be eligible to become a WL doesn't necessarily have to involve making a change to the world.  For example, nothing Jennara has done to change the world has been via CDQ.  She's never had a personal CDQ, in fact, other than her WLDQ, which could have led to a world change had she failed, I guess, but basically just maintained the status quo by succeeding.

For the love of all creation, please change CNR to be plausible. My sense of disbelief is entirely destroyed reading advertisements for boxes of chicken eggs listed in the thousands of gold pieces. How about cockatrice eggs instead? Instead of Yew, how about Magewood? (etc.)

[post=982282]First[/post], just for a different perspective.  Second, the economy is completely broken.  There is no mint anywhere; instead, money grows on monsters.  It's insane.  With an endless supply of gold coming in, there's bound to be inflation.  Among adventurers, who can just waddle out and beat coins out of pretty much anything like Mario punching bricks, gold has little value, so cartloads for eggs (and everything else) isn't really all that unexpected.  

It would be nice if that weren't so, though, yeah.  Or if there were a market to visit for common supplies (like eggs), though I suppose that would change some sort of balance in the crafting department.

In a similar light, understand that some players simply enjoy taking on combat challenges, and they are not at fault that NwN (through implementing DnD) gives disproportionate rewards for doing so. But rather than get mad at the players, simply tilt things in the opposite direction (*).

(*) In my own PnP game, of a game system of my own design, XP for "work experience" in a particular skill is limited, but you can use money to "buy training" (i.e. go to school, which also gives you XP). There is absolutely nothing that would prevent Layonara from cutting combat XP down, but having "schools" that let players trade Gold for XP.

I'm a little confused.  If bashing gives less XP, and if school gives a new source of XP, and if school costs True, and if True grows on monsters, what changes?  Wouldn't the bashers just take their gathered True and buy from the school the XP they "lost," coming out the same at the end?  Would this not just increase the incentive to bash for the True to buy the XP?  I'm just not seeing how this lowers the reward for bashing or improves the chances at XP for those who don't bash in comparison.  It does seem a nice gold sink on the face of it, but I doubt people who can buy XP are going to lower egg prices, heh.

[jrizz]

Here is what I want - Actual balance please. The power balance between casters and fighters is way off. I know this is going to unleash all kinds of replys about how it is not so, but when you have mages soloing around places that even the toughest fighters on the server would be mashed potato's if they tried even one spawn, something is off.

[SteveMaurer]

[post=982282]First[/post], just for a different perspective. Second, the economy is completely broken. There is no mint anywhere; instead, money grows on monsters. It's insane.

 
 I completely agree. Inflation happens when you have too much money chasing too few things of value. Deflation happens when you have too many things chasing too little money. As typically happens in long-running persistent worlds, Layonara has both of these trends. The market for durable craft goods is deflationary, because once crafted, a +1 Iron Greatsword never goes away. The market for CNR is inflationary, because there is a limited supply, and gold is almost worthless in comparison.
 
 Presently to combat this, there are outside controls imposed that have no in-game justification: PCs are forbidden to "Mull", just give their old equipment away. And to artificially reduce demand, the level restrictions have been jacked through the roof so that a starting PC can't wield or wear 90% of the items in the game. The pawners are a clever in-game addition, but they have the out of game restriction of being constantly out of cash. And "donation centers" are the trash barrels for good PCs, but there is nothing equivalent for neutral or evil PCs.
 
 But I do not like outside controls. You can make things work more naturally with in-game changes.
 
 

I'm a little confused. If bashing gives less XP, and if school gives a new source of XP, and if school costs True, and if True grows on monsters, what changes? Wouldn't the bashers just take their gathered True and buy from the school the XP they "lost," coming out the same at the end?

 
 It provides an in-game fix for the inflationary issues above. When gold can be traded for XP, is suddenly starts to be valuable again - even for high level PCs.
 
 

I doubt people who can buy XP are going to lower egg prices, heh.

 
 Economics says you are wrong. When the value of gold goes up, how much people are willing to trade it for (in terms of CNR) will go down.
 
 But thank you for reminding me that I missed a suggestion for the other half of the equasion:
 

• Crafting should be changed so that each attempt has two rolls. The first is for gaining XP. If this roll is successful (and only if), a second roll should be made for getting the item. PCs can learn from failures, and it would reduce the massive overflow of items that leveling in crafting produces.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Reminder: Please do not debate the requests made in this thread. If you wish to debate a point or discuss a request, please do so outside this thread. This thread is for people to offer up changes they'd like to see, not to debate the merits of those desired changes.

Thanks and keep posting! There is a lot of good stuff in here!

[SteveMaurer]

• Rather than having overall max gold limits for pawners, pawners should simply have a maximum transaction value for anything they buy. Say: 50 gold for small market shops, 100 gold for large city shops.   Not only would this eliminate the problem of some people crafting enchanted gems to make 10,000 gold in one quick sale (and rendering the shop uselessn for everyone else), it is actually realistic in the way pawn shops really work.

[jrizz]

One more request - I would like to see more mixed spawns at higher levels (@lonarins thought from another thread). So that once the mass death/stun spells are all cast there are still a good number of tough ready to fight angry bad guys to deal with. This would mean tweaking will and fort saves, adding some immunities, and adding some items. But it would result in the absolute need for a mixed party.

[jrizz]

Adding to my growing list of requests (maybe I should start to study the toolset and help make some of these changes instead of just asking for them)

1. More powerful magic items please that are Class, Race, Alignment restricted by OOC statements in the item description to overcome UMD being abused. Like how about +4 weapons since GMW now goes up to +6. And maybe the best of the armors (enchanted mithy) should be +5 and the best of the shields +4 now that vestments goes up to +6. How about some rings that are tied to deities and alignments that have +1 to +4 stats with some other things on them like pluses to saves or some spell affect x times a day.

2. I dont know if anything can be done about this one but the UMD needed to use scrolls is kinda high (25 + the level of the scroll). The cost of those scrolls is also very high so there is already a good boundary to over use.

[SteveMaurer]

OK, this one is specifically in regards to Ed. I hope he takes it in the constructive way it is intended.
 

• Try not to say "no". Instead, see if you can find a way to say "Yes, but it will be hard". Consider this especially in terms of deity relations, because from current writings, Ed seems to see religions as fundamentally authoritarian in nature, with little tolerance for variations in faith. And while that is true of some religions, it is not true of all.

I will give an example. This entire sequence of threads started out when Ed just flat denied Honora's PC, Genna Brendimeere, from taking Sacred Fist levels, not rerally based on much. In response, she withdrew the request, and stated "Nothing further will be done with this char".
 
 I do not like that result. It just isn't fun.
 
 If I were the loremaster, this is what I would have written instead:
 

Shindaleria is Mother Ocean. While capable of violence when necessary, she hates random destruction, such as the way the demon's hurricanes wreak devistation upon her beautiful coral gardens. Thus, study of combat for its own sake is generally seen as a path to debasement. It is the way she has lost too many of her people to the demon goddess, Mist. She has no Sacred Fists.
 
 Not yet.
 
 Genna is hereby approved to take Fighter levels. She should also sign up for at least two CDQs, for her to develop her own unarmed Water Style combat techniques (which must be unarmed), complete with her own katas based upon the nature of water. This will culminate (if she survives), in a WLDQ to persuade the High priestess to present her case to Shindaleria herself.  After this she will be rebuilt.
 
 Understand that Genna is by no means guaranteed success, even if she lives to see the WLDQ. In fact, there are at least four possible outcomes of this decade long quest. She could: 1] Fail to convince the High Priestess to offer her sponsorship, in which case Genna would be rebuilt into a 100% fighter, 2] Convince the High Priestess to continue the relationship, even when the Goddess herself has doubts, in which case Genna will be allowed a rebuild with all her current Cleric levels removed and her Fighter levels replaced with Monk levels (and become a special associate of the temple), 3] Convince the Goddess and be allowed a full rebuild as a Sacred Fist, or 4] Be taken in by a spiritual bond with Shindaleria, and rebuild as a full Cleric (perhaps with more of a martial focus than normal Shindaleria Clerics engage in). The most likely outcome is 1], but if she succeeded in 2] or 3], she would become Grandmaster, and founder of, the Water Monastery.
 
 I already have in mind some of the things Shindaleria, and her high priestess, will, and will not, accept as katas (in game represented as skills and feats) deserving of sponsorship. It will be up to Genna to find these on her own, but I will instruct the GMs to give broad hints. And I will start with one hint here: at least one aspect of a water style kata that Shindaleria would accept, is not actually combat effective in Layonara for other reasons.
 

 
 If the player decides to take it upon herself to do this, there is story there. Genna may not succeed. It may be a tragedy in the end, but there isn't so much of the out of game business that turns players off, and causes them to abandon perfectly good characters and stories.

[jrizz]

@Steve sorry to be so blunt-headed but, is there a request in there? Are you asking for more unique ways to build up unique PCs? I like the idea of taking some base class levels and then rebuilding later on a successful CDQ.