What do you want from Layonara?

[Dorganath]

Formed from discussions started in this thread (and moved here so as to not further derail the original message:

http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/249802-deities-classes-suggestion.html

What do people want from Layonara? Do you want the quests? Do you want the GM involvement? Do you want the enhancements to RP and mechanics that come from having a quirky and diverse Pantheon? Or do you just want us to let you do your thing, put whatever you want on, in and near your character without consequence or requirement and just beat things up all day long, however little sense it makes to do so? Do you want the living, breathing world or do you want a gladiatorial arena where you are the champion....Aeridin's slayer of the wicked...Az'atta's redemption by steel?
 
I am really and truly interested in your answers, and please do not insult me by just telling me what you think I want to hear.

What this is:
It is a serious inquiry and not a "loaded question" as has been suggested, and I am respectfully requesting serious answers. It's clear quite a few of you are unhappy with one thing or the other, and while I will not even come close to making assurances we'll adjust on all things listed here, there have been (and hopefully will continue to be) some worthwhile suggestions. But we will read and listen.

This is a thread for people to respectfully state what they'd like to see overall regarding the general experience of playing here.

What this is not:
First and foremost, this is not a debate thread. It s not a place to argue and disagree with the points one person or other makes. If you have an opposing viewpoint, then state it, but do so as a stand-alone thing. Any debates will invariably spiral out of control and derail a thread that derailed another. I'd rather not have that.

It is also not a thread to nit-pick or tear apart some narrowly focused issue. This has already been done to an extent in the posts I've moved here, but moving forward, I'd prefer not to see a continued analysis of why Deity X is stupid/redundant/unplayable or how Diety Y + Class Z should be allowed because of whatever reason.

What else?
I do not plan to comment on anything said in this thread until it has run its course, and then only maybe. The primary reason is time, but also to give you all a chance to speak without my influence.

All postings need to be kept respectful and "in-bounds". I think that goes without saying, but sometimes with issues that are important to us, we get a little heated. Let's keep those emotions in check throughout. The only point at which I will moderate this thread is if this line is crossed.

And while I don't expect many of you to actually go this route, the GM Team is fair to comment upon as well, provided the above is kept firmly in mind. We will not punish anyone for giving negative opinions, but again, keep them respectful.

Personal attacks on anyone, Player or GM, will simply not be tolerated.

So OK!  Please continue.

[Dorganath]

Moved from the prior thread

*unsure if Dorg question was rhetorical*
 
Well I like all of it really (the quests, the involvement, the rp everything, the great development that has been made mechanically and a lot of the new lore that was not written before for the kingdoms and such.), but this is my thought.
 
A lot of the changes that is iring some people at the moment, where made in prevision of the mmo.
 
There should be a clear distinction of what is for the MMO and what is for NWN. And with that, what you have now for NWN should stay as you have it, and what you plan for the MMO should stay only for the MMO. This way you do not impact the gaming experience of the player base. And with this am I not talking about lore development, or mechanical development or even the plot line. I mean the changes that affect the basic of the game like the refining of the deities and what is no longer acceptable but was not even 6 months ago.
 
You can make the MMO tid bits publications public, which is great as you keep people interested, but without having them impact the now. People would know that when the MMO is coming out, there will be changes, and they will be ready. And from past reading, none of the chars we have now would be alive in the MMO, so that would not impact us at all at that time.
 
But that's me, that's how I would do it personally and I fully understand that this might not be how you (the team) want to proceed

[Dorganath]

Moved from the prior thread

 What do people want from Layonara?

Simply put, to be entertained...
 
To be more precise.. I want to be able to do something which keeps me entertained. Thankfully I have a character who can actually join in on most of the entertaining aspects of the server(At least seen from my perspective)..
I would say that choosing a diety in general will limit you no matter how you put it. However it wont stop you from creating a different character to have the kind of fun you want to have, so I wouldn't really put the diety system down as a bad thing, rather just one which adds flavor to your character and might put some restrictions on that character alone.
 
  Quote:
 

Do you want the quests?

Of course, we all want quests.. Again entertainment value and so forth...
What I could wish for though would be smaller in audience and bigger in character work for the individual character. Far too often the quest boils down to the same PC's taking the lead and the rest of the party just being there for the ride and the xp.
Sadly the amount of GM's and the time they can dedicate to nwn is too small for this and I believe that the situation we have now is a compromise between having quests open to a broader audience and having the quests themselves run by few characters.
 
 

Do you want the GM involvement?

Depends on which kind of GM involvement you are asking about.. I am choosing to view this from the deity discussion and the reply will not address my feelings about this subject in general.
 
I would actually like a lot more GM involvement in the deity system as we have it now. One of the biggest problem many faiths face are that their followers and especially their divinely inspired characters can't really do anything that their faith dictates them to do, there are some examples of faiths who can though;
 
1) Toranites, hey go out slay evil, sadly evil respawns but hey then you can just slay evil again another day
 
2) Doranites, craft-craft-craft, pretty easy
 
3) Lucindites, with the new inclusion of wild and no magic areas spawning around the world they can actually go out and help their lady. However some of the newer additions to the faith like the pit stalkers are clearly only intended for the MMO and have no real purpose unless a GM picks it up, same goes for dragonlinks really... However no one that I know of are part of those organizations save NPC's so I figure that is alright.
 
The faiths which has real problems with doing anything would be.
 
1) Az'attans, really it feels like beating a dead horse.. But what can these people to exactly besides RP? They can tell people not to kill and to try to redeem from now and till the world of Layonara is consumed by the dragon cult and still get nowhere because the only chance of doing an act of redeemption/pacifism are GM encounters. The can preach however I guess that counts...
 
2) Shindy people, protect the oceans? Uhh.. How, we can't even travel in the oceans so they are sort of limited to waging a neverending war on the Mist people, and besides the PC's they encounter that too is limited to GM interactions. I would judge this as sort of the situation the Lucindites faced before the wild/no magic area mechanics were introduced
 
3) Prunilla, again preaching sure just keep doing that... But farming? Since the farming system was dropped in favor of the MMO(Not complaining about this decision just stating the fact), they are pretty much limited to preaching as well.
 
While preaching priests aren't a bad thing, since that is part of being a priest in the first place, it certainly is a bad thing if it is what the priest is limited to do. Especially especially if they can't gain levels through normal means, and here I mean combat and purely combat the only reliable source of xp. There are those who will probably argue here that RP will mend all this and that levels doesn't matter.
Then... I would like to reply with one of my strongests standpoints, levels -should- matter, and that is matter more than RP... Sure I can accept that a level 5 could do what a level 10 could through good RP or to drive a quest forward, fair enough. But when you start justifying the level 5 cleric being as influential as the level 40 cleric then there is something clearly wrong in the logic.
Levels are the only clear way of measuring the magnitude of a character short of very, with the emphasis on VERY, strict guidelines for how this works. The guidelines and reasonings should either be obvious, ex. person of neutral or below deity relation goes into temple of deity X and asks for help being refused said help, or explained very carefully and made available to all who would like to know why.
Usually this is the norm but of course it is very tedious to keep track of all this and even more when your average clergy as defined by LORE doesn't really have any ranks besides some very high ones being occupied by NPC's.
I know that I probably wasn't the most prominent speaker for the ranking system the lucindite church used the have, and we shouldn't really dwell in the past because we have the new deity write-ups which are wonderful in their own right..
But the advantage this system could have had was that there was a clear defined place in the church, there could be a feeling of progression where the PC would slowly move towards a move influential post in the hierarchy. However the problem was that the GM focus on this field was too little and it ended up pretty much like the situation is now, PC's at the bottom, rock bottom of all churches and nothing else except the rare epic.
 
The problem I feel there is really boils down to two decisions which I as a player think has been made:
 
1) Focus the GM's on running quests for everyone since the GMs are busy people and we would like as much focus on the player base as a whole as opposed to fragments of the player base
 
2) The consequence of this is that focus is largely removed from the churches and deities, making them too preachy for my taste.
 
I might start being redundant here but again, this focus makes it so that the churches and deities are less alive compared to what I would like. I must admit here that I am a huge fan of rather interventionist deities who actually matter to their followers.
Surely the priest is expected to have the deity matter to him, but there is no signs from either church or deity towards the individual PC save CDQ's and I believe that this is indeed a poor way to handle those relationships.
But again this is a choice from the GM team and they have their reasons for this and I will not argue that there might be things speaking against this approach, but I will still say that I would like if things were more like this and less like they are today.
 

Do you want the enhancements to RP and mechanics that come from having a quirky and diverse Pantheon?

Sure, as long as there are a measure of usefulness for the individual player and not just for the benefit of saying that there is flavor but the flavor is only there for what you want to preach and not what you are part of.
 

Or do you just want us to let you do your thing, put whatever you want on, in and near your character without consequence or requirement and just beat things up all day long, however little sense it makes to do so?

Uhmmm... May I point out that it is actually what is happening now, except that certain domain/equipment combos are unavailable due to deity restrictions? This is very bluntly put but it is part of the reality that I see on the servers on a day to day basis. I mean no offence in this, I believe that the most important thing is that the players feel content with the experience offered and given that no one seems to complain about this I guess that people are.
 

Do you want the living, breathing world or do you want a gladiatorial arena where you are the champion....Aeridin's slayer of the wicked...Az'atta's redemption by steel?

My argument should pretty well state that I don't believe that the world is living and breathing, rather it is an arena now outside GM quests. Surely there are some RP-isles out there but they are far in-between and rather closed. This of course doesn't include the RP that people do while wacking monsters which is thankfully not absent on layonara...
 
I know that the general picture this post reflects of layonara is rather bad. However I keep coming back because I like the world and the people who play. But I do believe that there are some illusions among some people of how the day to day experience of layonara is these days, and hopefully this post will inspire some thought about the way the world works and how you would like it to work to enhancing your experience here

[Dorganath]

Moved from the prior thread

What do people want from Layonara? Do you want the quests? Do you want the GM involvement? Do you want the enhancements to RP and mechanics that come from having a quirky and diverse Pantheon? Or do you just want us to let you do your thing, put whatever you want on, in and near your character without consequence or requirement and just beat things up all day long, however little sense it makes to do so? Do you want the living, breathing world or do you want a gladiatorial arena where you are the champion....Aeridin's slayer of the wicked...Az'atta's redemption by steel?
 
I am really and truly interested in your answers, and please do not insult me by just telling me what you think I want to hear.
 
...

I want less loaded questions!
 
Anyways ... is lore really so fragile that an idea or path such as Honora has evidently spent much time pondering prior to submission likely to do ... what's the word? .. 'damage' anything? Will lore explode if there is a Priest(ess) of Shindaleria who thinks the ebb and flow of Shindaleria is an OK fit for a martial artist? I'd have thought such a concept to be a nice fit for some of the softer impact and deflection based martial arts?
 
It appears, especially of late, that lore integrity and uber-strict adherence to such is of paramount importance over and above a flexibility that used to exist to facilitate player's fun.
 
Maybe I am missing something but I can't see the incredible 'drama' a more lenient approach to submissions like Honoras might have - even if they differ from Ed's own existing ideas. I thought that was the decision not long ago when there was the decision made to ease up on the rules and increase the fun factor? Is this really so very different? Sure, some things will always be plain ridiculous and not make sense ... but if someone's idea is justifiable, debatable, reasoned, even if only remotely possible at the edges of established parameters ... then *shrugs* there will always be outliers that don't need to substantially affect the integrity of the 'norm'.
 
My thoughts for early Saturday morning.
 
If this post belongs in another thread, feel free to move.

[Dorganath]

Moved from prior thread

Oooo, this thead has gotten interesting! So, it's time for me to weigh in.
 

I am really and truly interested in your answers, and please do not insult me by just telling me what you think I want to hear.

OK, I'll will be 100% frank. But I also must say that this is the first time in literally 25 years where I've been put in the position of being a player, rather than being asked to be the GM, and I really can't thank you enough for that experience.
 
 

At the same time, the perennial complaint is that we have "too many rules."

Yes. You have far too many rules. The solution is not, however, to make them undocumented, enforced subjectively, constantly in flux, and nebulous. I have noticed that the first way many rules get articulated in Layonara, is when the GM team decides that a PC is subject to some form of sanction (or disallow a long-planned progression), and the player ends up posting here on the forums asking what the heck this new unwritten rule, that just blindsided their PC, is.
 
 That's what kicked off this thread, for instance. A new rule about Shindaleria that completely threw the player for a loop. And it's not good.
 
I must also point out that the GM team's response is also a tad diappointing. Rather than admit having changed a rule, or perhaps work it into the history of the world as an in-game change, there is this strong tendency to pretend that the just-made-up-rule was always that way, even though it clearly wasn't. And this is usually justified by a strained appeal to "common sense", even though it isn't. (And as if "common sense" is a classic hallmark of religions, which it's not.)
 
I find this behavior especially confusing, because I believe it is your right to change things arbirarily as you see fit. So I don't see why rule changes, and continued world definition is so embarassing, that you feel emotionally compelled not to just acknowledge it.
 
NOTE:  I purposefully snipped out a bit here, as it belongs as part of the prior discussion more than this one, and it bears comment, to which I am refraining in this thread. Apologies for any confusion this may cause. -- Dorganath
 
 
What I think needs to happen is for you to acknowledge when you make changes, give some serious compensation to PCs who are affected (offering complete rebuilds, or special-case exceptions, for starters), and take a humble approach to issues surrounding different interpretations of what is written down. Here is a basic rule of thumb: when one person misreads something in lore, that might be their mistake - when two, three, or more people do, it's clearly yours.
 
I would also like for Layonaran GMs to be given their own little areas inside the world that they can play with, rather than constantly having to ask permission to do anything. Part of the reason why there is so much focus on the bashy, rather than the RP, even in the quests, is that RP requires world definition that GMs presently do not have permission to do. If every little question has to be funneled through Ed, and/or Leanthar, for an answer, you don't get much world definition. If your GMs live in fear of a PM from Ed, you don't get much exploration of tangential plot lines.

[Honora]

The NWN Layo is very restrictive in character creation.  What we seem to reward and encourage are basic classes played by the "big four"; human, elf, dwarf, halfling. Read through the character submissions and that's clear.  And my point in another thread stands: in part because of this, we grow very slowly and have become rather alt-dependent to keep things fresh.  And those alts are often much more challenging concepts, to keep the game interesting for people who have been here for years.

I understand that this is in part to maintain the high standard of roleplay that we expect.  But what happens when we apply this to the MMO?  And how much are we hurting ourselves now, when this game is going to be important to seed the new game with experienced Layonara players?

Mechanically and realistically, NWN Layo is a killing game.  That's the experience that gives players that little rush of dopamine when they advance; that's what fuels the time between quests.  All of this has been discussed to death but it's still true; certain gods are over-represented because of the limits on the game and the difficulties of RPing pacifisim.  I would wager the same of certain classes, although I have no data on that.

I'm not sure there is a workable solution, but I have one to suggest.  Rather than focus on eye candy in any updates (should there be any), I think adding a slew of lower-level quests that can be done without killing a requirement would be good.  Temple quests for Az'atta, Shindy, Aeridin, etc, that folks who have a god in their deity field can do.  Quests for 1-10 that involve travel, discovery - the flags were an awesome idea but require a group (or good sneak skills) for most people who would benefit.  Some soloable material that does not emphasize killing.

Example: Az'atta temple in Audiria needs materials from Lan's Port.  Lan's Port contact needs a crafted item before he can release the materials.  Or a postage quest done.  Or for someone to use a subduing widgit (to avoid killing) on someone.  Sub-quest completed, materials released, Az'attan trots back to temple, experience and perhaps a minor reward item are dispensed.

My 1.75 True (adjusted for inflation).

[Nehetsrev]

Expanding on Honora's non-combative type quests, here are some ideas that might not be too hard to implement:
 
 
 

• Reward stealthy individuals with some XP for passing through an area undetected. The scripting for this might work by setting a Detection State variable and Entry Point variable on the PC as they enter the area, then as they move through the area if they're detected the variable gets changed, if not it remains un-changed, then if it's still unchanged when they reach a transition another check confirms the entry point variable doesn't match the exit point value and rewards XP.
• XP gain from disabling traps without triggering them.
• XP for by-passing a guard-post by bluffing?
• Placement in different towns of 'convertable' NPC's for PC clerics/paladins to roll persuade/charisma checks against to gain XP for converting them to their own faith. The DC to convert one of these NPCs might even increase each time they've been converted by another PC, and thus become more rewarding (until a server reset that would start things over). This would, in my opinion, even promote better RP of clerics/paladins who work to convert other PC's and NPC's on DM-run quests to their own faith. By rewarding the mindset and actions outside of such situations I think it would encourage players to extend it into the rest of their RP.
• As Honora mentioned, but perhaps a bit more detailed idea here, randomized on-going postal delivery to NPC's all over the world.

Anyhow, just a few ideas for non-combative XP gain that could be implemented if someone takes the time to code them (I'd write the code, but NWN's coding system eludes my understanding).

[Skywatcher]

This may seem obvious but what I want out of Layonara and I think many agree with me is entertainment. Now that means different things to different people. To some it means levelling and getting more powerful to meet bigger challenges. To some the story is main thing. To some it's the relationships and character development that comes through RP. The problem is that it's not possible to please everyone and you will fail ifyou try. I think personally I get a bit of entertainment from each of these and although it's not easy a balance of these three would be the ideal. I have played a few MMORPGs and I think each one has it's strengths and weaknesses. I don't think there is a perfect game out there and I would say that Layo is great for story and relationships and a bit weak on the levelling and maintaining challenge. World of Warcraft is the best at maintaining the challenge level but the worst in terms of RP and Story. My biggest suggestion for the MMO would be to provide a more continuous challenge spectrum and include as many ways as possible other than just killing stuff to advance in capability, in both combat and non-combat skills, while maintaining the high RP and story standards.

[Erik K]

what I want out of Layo?  more of what hooked me in the first place.  When I came here, we were in Hlint, great place with lots of RP.  Whether it was debates on the benches or casual chat on the Greens in front of the Bank, there was a lot of  fun RP and it was fantastic.  At the same time, you had a center of the world, we all came there to craft or whatever and you knew everyone.   Because there was a central place to meet and Hlint drew us all there, you had true casual encounters and parties formed with new people all the time.  Since then, it seems like the player base has fragmented and is spread all over the server and casually meeting someone is  more engineered that casual.
   I also think the strict interpretation of rules is bogging things down and putting RP in a strait jacket, effectively creating cookie cutter characters.  Its one thing to have guidlines and Im good with that.   Ive played on servers with out them and none have the depth of RP that Layo does.  But at this point, it seems like they are getting too well defined and its hard to be creative with a character.   When I first came here, I played an Az'attan and loved it,  because it allowed a lot of freedom to RP and interract.  Now it just feels frustrating.  In the real world, most if not all  faiths accept a significant amount of diversity, why cant Layo offer the same?  
   As Skywatcher pointed out, there can be no perfect serverand he is right, people are too diverse.  But isnt Layo big enough to accomidate more variety?  We all bring something to the table and add flavour to the world.

[Dezza]

What do I want? hmmm  good question. People aren't going to like to hear some of this.

1/ Significantly Less Xp for epic level characters from creature kills, imo this has detracted from WL's since every other person has an epic level char these days without too much effort.

2/ The XP jump at level 20-21 doubled and the current XP jump at level 20 placed at level 30-31.

3/ Double or even triple hourly XP for WL's who attend quests. Give them the importance they have earn't and the incentive to be out there amongst the player populations.

4/ Less stringent approvals for new first time character submissions for a faster turnaround to get them into the world to see first hand how it works. Almost always the first character you make on layo is a test run. Lets acknowledge that.

5/ More in game repurcussions for players who willingly take a diety in their diety field but only pay the diety lip service. I personally am sick to death of paladins and clerics who do and say nothing about their gods. Layonara provides a rich pantheon full of diversity and careful consideration (although we are missing a LE god) its one of the main reasons I play here. It irks me considerably when people say why bother with the gods they dont care about the characters really. Thats not the point!

6/ NWN is a combat based MECHANICAL system. It is a platform for Layonara! It is NOT Layonara. People have forgotten that. This world was/ IS an RP based world utilising the NWN mechanical system. People can't seem to get that into their heads. If you want a nwn COMBAT world go find a hack and slash server to play on and satisfy your needs there stop trying to make this world into what it isnt.

7/ Some appreciation! I have heard it time and time again over the years "this world is not like anywhere else I've played, this world is so rich, this world has so much development, this world has so much to learn about it" and then you hear all the complaints about everything that actually makes this world what it is! Its the old case of damned if you do and damned if you dont! It is what it is, yes it takes a bit of EFFORT to play here, it takes a bit of APPRECIATION to understand the sheer volume of time and effort put into it so that you can have a UNIQUE experience. I said UNIQUE not HACK AND SLASH experience. I dont think there are many people here who realise how much GM's give up when they agree to become a GM or a CA or a project writer or a MMO designer or whatever. We are held to the highest scrutiny in case of the dreaded old 'favouritism' card that people like to play when they feel hard done by with a decision thats made. So much so that anything we want to achieve with our own characters almost becomes too hard to even contemplate. A lot of people have asked me why haven't I applied for WL with Sasha and I can tell you its simply because being a GM I feel that the deck is stacked so high against me before I even begin that I can't bring myself to make that leap. We have the OPPORTUNITY to play in a world that was created for RP only, a meeting place for a group of PNP gamers interested in the world that could be created in cyberspace where they could bring their characters to life. Layonara is a pnp world brought to life and modified and expanded for YOUR enjoyment and many want to remove all the boundries and almost to some extent do what they like. Make no mistake this world requires EFFORT to play and enjoy it here it's not the walk in the park some seem to think it should be.

8/ I want to see MORE WL applications, I want to see more effort put into character identities by players.

9/ I want to see more effort put into RPing diety relations

10/ I want to see so much more from the player base not just from a few individuals whose RP and interactions significantly stand out in a group of people.

11/ I want to see characters holding ranks, titles, positions of honour etc throughout the world. It used to be like that but over time this has flopped and thats perhaps a symptom of GM's fearing to give anyone anything for fear of upsetting Lore but its not impossible to do and GM's need to realise that.

12/ Less reliance on the mechanical limitations of NWN and more reliance by players on going with the flow and fun of a situation that can be handled by a GM. EG: PLayers kill everything in the Great Forest down to the bears and boars. A powerful Druid is dispatched to deal with the intruders. She stops them and speaks with them angrily at what happened. Half the PC's are sorry and agree to move onto somewhere else. One other is rude and argumentative, everyone else stands back and says nothing! The Druid immobilizes the trouble maker wondering whats happening to people in the world. The others wander off and the Druid approaches the trouble maker and tries to explain what she's doing there, how the natural order of the forest must be balanced not unbalanced. The trouble maker argues ooc that according to nwn she could have done this and that and the druid would not have immobilised her etc rather than going with it and having some real developmental Rp with the character. Both parties walk away unsatisfied both in and ooc because one tried to use ONLY apply nwn mechanical limitations and one tried to make for a richer and more interesting experience outside the realms of mecahnical limitations.
Another eg: Character is designing new clothes in the Crafting hall and a rat enters and starts chewing on the fabric 'left on the floor'. Instead of a positive and fun RP experience that may have developed the GM is abused significantly for interrupting someones time. That nwn mechanical system would not have allowed a rat to appear in the place so its out of place and uncalled for. Do you see what I am getting at?
For example: Character's both summon creatures to compare while standing on the docks in Port Hempstead. GM states 'people start running everywhere in fear at the sudden appearance of the creatures, guards cordon off the dock and send for reinforcements. One Captain nervously calls out "banish those creatures, this is not the place for them." The Characters abuse GM for interrupting them and that they were only comparing their summons and that who cares where they do it there is no one around, you cant see them, only the captains. Gm tries to explain that while you cant see them doesnt mean they arent their. GM is told they are stupid and to stop interrupting their fun. Im sorry but HELLO! Where are you from? Why are you even bothering to play in this world for???

13/ The Mayan lucky number is last (13). I want to see more players RP while they adventure. I've followed a number of groups as a GMand if I dont have time to run an impormptu I'll just watch them. I REWARD RP. Often I have to log off disappointed that I could not give them a reward bonus because they simply did not RP. Dont do it once and walk away disappointed cause you got nothing! Thats not the idea. Do it all the time and you will get rewarded! It wont happen overnight but it will happen! and guess what! You might even enjoy the whole experience even more! Now wouldn't that be something!

14/ erm...no I said 13 was the last one so I'll leave it there!  

Sorry couldn't help myself! Signposts! telling you what Kingdom you are in on each screen.

[Pseudonym]

11/ I want to see characters holding ranks, titles, positions of honour etc throughout the world. It used to be like that but over time this has flopped and thats perhaps a symptom of GM's fearing to give anyone anything for fear of upsetting Lore but its not impossible to do and GM's need to realise that.

This can be player initiated - we can make this happen through our guilds and common-goal/deity sub-communities but it really doesn't come alive until it is recognized and supported by GMs. I asked (here and here) GMs to please feel free to incorporate the Guild that Ark began into any plots or quest arcs they had brewing on 27th Feb 2008. In the 20 months since that request .... nada. Not a single PM.

More support and encouragement and reward and recognition for player initiatives.

Edit: Dezza - please note this!! Ggggrrrrrrr.

[jrizz]

1/ Significantly Less Xp for epic level characters from creature kills, imo this has detracted from WL's since every other person has an epic level char these days without too much effort.
 
 2/ The XP jump at level 20-21 doubled and the current XP jump at level 20 placed at level 30-31.
 

 
 @Dezza, Are these two items just to deal with the handfull of grinders we have? Cause if it were any harder to level, 90% of us would have no upward movment at all. Doubling the XP jump during the 20 to 21 "green mile" would just securly doom all non-WLs to perma-death.

[Pseudonym]

@Dezza, Are these two items just to deal with the handfull of grinders we have? Cause if it were any harder to level, 90% of us would have no upward movment at all. Doubling the XP jump during the 20 to 21 "green mile" would just securly doom all non-WLs to perma-death.

The counter-argument being it might encourage those otherwise condemned to perma-death during the Green Mile to do something of significance during levels 1-19 such that they would feel comfortable applying for World Leader when they hit 20?

As Dorg stated, I know this is not a debate thread - but that thought occurred to me as I was pondering jrizz's post.

[blonde]

I agree with most of what have been said already, but I will try a few of my own as well.

1) I want more avenues for progression for characters to pursue besides new levels and crafting. Titles, positions within hierarchies, success for your home kingdom (through conquest, defense, trade, diplomacy, etc). Everyone wants a place in the world.

2) I want more players on the servers. This is the easiest and most direct route to making the world come alive.

3) I want to embrace the new players. New blood will keep the server fresh and alive. I hate to see a new player be stuck in character approval for 3 weeks and then give up and leave us, never even having seen the server. (Sorry CA team, a ton of respect for your amazing work, not so much for the current strict process). When I started here I was such a noob, both with nwn and Layo lore. I learned from playing and RP'ing with others, and still do

4) I want characters to be defined by the person as opposed to the class. Make the class requirements (not the mechanical ones) more bendy, and allow the player a chance to fit his/her character's personality into the class.

5) I want it to be easier to meet other characters. A looking for group list? It's a big world today, and often with few players. 4 years ago the world center was Hlint and the max level was 20 (except for a rare few). This led to a much higher concentration of like-level characters in the same areas. Lifting of the level split rule was a big step in the right direction!

6) Lastly I want there to be room for all player types. Even the loner who prefers to solo and keep to himself enhances the server in his own way.

[Kirbiana]

Speaking as a player who no longer spends as much time as I once did on Layo, I thought it might be helpful to share the one thing I would have liked to see inform both the rulings of the LORE team and the behavior of my fellow role players during my time here:

Please don't make other people's characters into caricatures.

We the players are asked to commit ourselves to creating and inhabiting a believable character for others to interact with.  We are given the rules of the world's religions, politics, and races and then with the guidance of the CA team, we create a character that we find entertaining to play and that fits into the world of Layonara.

However, it is much LESS entertaining when your chosen role gets pushed to a cartoonish extreme either by the way that fellow players presumptively treat you (paladin = prig, rogue = scum, dwarf = drunk, etc) or by the role-playing rules that seem to inexorably tighten around certain religions, classes or races as time goes on.  An abiding respect for the circle of life on the part of Aeridinites, for example, gives players the leeway to create interesting characters ranging from committed healers to committed slayers of evil.  When that rule got tightened down (as it did during my time here) to 'don't kill anything at all, no matter whether it's the most evil monster in the world', then my interest in my main character (and in Layonara overall) pretty much drained away.  It just wasn't fun to role-play such an extreme caricature of non-violence.

I remember long ago, someone asked on the forums, "Where have all the good characters gone?"  If you look around, I think you'll notice that many of the best RP-ers on the server have gravitated toward a neutral and deity-free existence.  I could be wrong, but I suspect that's because role-playing those kind of characters means they don't have to inhabit a strait-jacket of expectations on the part of their fellow players and of the team.  

I hope this viewpoint from a mostly-retired player is helpful, Dorg.  I'm really impressed by the commitment you've shown in this thread to getting the balance between rules and fun just right.  Thank you for reading.

[Masterjack]

Personally I kind of like things the way they are. The one thing I would like to add is that I prefer to have an RP reason to go exploring. I cringe at the thought of bashing my way through the same area over and over again just to gain levels. So I can do it all over again in a harder area? Some like that but I do not.

Now if I had a reason to try and exterminate the Redlight Goblins, Giants on Dregar or the inhabitants of the Misted Village things might be different. One of my characters has a reason to protect the Misted village. All I know is that they are Goblins, Giants and Rogues. Nothing has been mentioned anywhere (outside of Quests) on what bad they may have done to deserve such actions.

[lonnarin]

I want the rules, submission standards and allowable character/dogma/deity/weapons mandates trimmed back to where they were about 4 and a half years ago.  Since then the red tape that started as a single string has snowballed up into one big tangled ball of frustration and character refusals.  Fantasy realms depend and rely on imagination not only of the creators, but the players.  Please relent in the 3rd degree inspections of every little thing in a character's bio, advancement path and belief system and let the players play the game with a minimum of restrictions.  Dogmas should be a guiding light, not a bell jar.  There should be ample room for various sects of the same faith to coexist.

[Masterjack]

I want the rules, submission standards and allowable character/dogma/deity/weapons mandates trimmed back to where they were about 4 and a half years ago.  Since then the red tape that started as a single string has snowballed up into one big tangled ball of frustration and character refusals.  Fantasy realms depend and rely on imagination not only of the creators, but the players.  Please relent in the 3rd degree inspections of every little thing in a character's bio, advancement path and belief system and let the players play the game with a minimum of restrictions.  Dogmas should be a guiding light, not a bell jar.  There should be ample room for various sects of the same faith to coexist.

Let me to start off saying that I did not do that well in High school English. I like the way the character submissions process is, it helps me flesh out my character more and bring it to life. It may take me a while to get it approved but in the end I'm happy with the result.

Let me expand on this. My first character Beli Tenker was made with a basic background and was to be a Monk in the Brother's of Battle. If I was told at submission what was to be expected of him I might have changed my submission. It was not till level 7 that I found out what he needed to become a Brother of Battle. I found out at level 21 that the monastery was not connected to the Vorax church. Now I have a level 22 monk I do not know what to do with RP wise.

I have to agree those that are new need a quick way to experience the game. I think the character vault does this well.

[Acacea]

I agree on the less loaded questions. "Do you want it our way... or the way of EVIL!" leaves quite a lot in between

YAILWAP

There are a lot of things I think would help. I agree, low leveled quests. Actually, some high level quests as well - Like MJ (sorry!) said, giving reasons to explore and snapshots of what a place is supposed to be like. Always good. There are pros and cons to non fedex quests, I know. But then, those take development time to a server that frankly should be grateful for whatever scraps of updates we can get. Even volunteering to do it ourselves means that someone like Dorg needs to spend time checking and integrating. It might happen it might not.

Also for everyone to chill out a bit, that's good too.

But behind the whole list, what I really wish most to see is what is least likely to occur - I wish NWN would diverge from MMO lore.

What does that mean? First of all... take into account that as a player I absorb background information as well as I can. There are areas that I've come to know better than the GMs that created them, and other times where just the fact that I was asking so many irritating questions made for more information to be had there at all. As a CA I was more interested in inundating a new player with whatever information I could provide than judging their ability to play what they submitted. I also play a very information oriented character. All these things depend on the ability for the server to reflect its setting.

That said, if NWN is forced to be lock-in-step with the MMO it will (and does) stagnate, increasingly so over time. It doesn't take a druid to observe interesting things about the information released - such as that all the realm timelines shown end decades before the current year.

A few years ago, when the MMO was announced but not the setting, I almost begged for it to be set a couple centuries in the future - my reasoning was that it gives NWN a very good lead, plenty of time to live out its current plots whether or not they have RL time to be finished, and just as importantly, a good chunk of time for the current generations of characters to be gone with explanation. Set in some vague idea of the present, and a) if the MMO takes a long time, NWN will inevitably begin to outpace it unless NWN is shut down and b) all of the major and minor players in the present setting will simply be gone in the next stage. You may be a level ten or a WL in year 1434, have great influence or none, and if the MMO is also in 1434 you will be inexplicably gone. Why? We're not porting characters. Start from scratch is good and I strongly rooted for it... but give it a good amount of time.

I feel that we've outpaced the MMO already, and that it may well be a big explanation to some of the stagnation that is here. We are worried about making changes to something that occurred decades before. Rulers that were written for 1416, not 1470. Pseudo wondered, where are the WL mentions in the realm summaries? Well... good question? It's true there's more information elsewhere and yes, that most WLs aren't specifically involved in a particular realm, but how much room really is there in the world of text? You have to stamp it sometime, and the biggest draw of Layonara was the ability to impact and change it.

And that is what I would most like to see again. Please don't come back and talk about how changeable it still is... of course you can still do things, but there is a limit. Consider, for example - if some texts are already stamped finished, is your group or character really going to be appended to them? And even if so, would you not aspire to something other than a footnote? I wish upon a star that the GMs and players would get all the information that is available, and then be given the freedom to track mud all over it. Isn't part of the vision of layo to be a world setting? To imagine a Layo like FR, where DMs use it for all sorts of campaigns that diverge from the base setting? Where whole continents go up in smoke even though that is not what is Planned For The Main Game?

That is what I would like to see for the remainder of NWN, and I realize that it is a very controversial wish that is unlikely to speak for the entire playerbase. I wish for NWN to be merely a fond series of divergent campaigns in the world setting of Layonara... not tied to the MMO, nor held to standards they are not yet made aware of. Let both GMs and players dream big - make them start with all the things you plan as transparently as you can make it, but then let them shatter it to pieces with their successes and failures. There will then be no need to worry about how it affects MMO lore... you just ignore it if that is not where the next will begin. If you end up really really liking something, well - you get the best of both worlds, heh, because all the people writing and GMing have signed the papers - you can use both their content and their characters if you want. Pick and choose.

To some this will be sacrilege, but I have for some time very strongly believed that that is the best thing NWN could hope for. The MMO gets the benefit of only caring what happens in NWN when it's super important and desirable, and that people like Ed no longer have to spend so much time deciding what doesn't fit with the MMO or who didn't sign or did something happen that wasn't canon. NWN gets the benefit of the ceiling and timeline lifted off their heads, players and GMs alike, and the freedom to not worry about forgetting what part of their adventures are stamped and what not. Think about it - deities may die, rulers may be assassinated, and whether you make it into the text or not, you may, briefly, rule the world. Why not?

Let the players continue to take care of the server costs, be transparent about when it increases or when you need them in the future - perhaps setting a goal for another sets off a ponying-up drive - and let them then also use every bit of information you are willing to give them as a base point for their own adventures, not the ones you plan for them to have when you release the MMO. It is impossible to test-drive the main draws of the MMO with us - it is not mechanically feasible. Let us just run with your setting, instead.

((Yes that is a lot of acronyms.))

[Masterjack]

*points up* ya what she said..oh and MJ is ok to use