Where have all the good ones gone?

[Pseudonym]

I've just deleted three paragraphs of my intended post which essentially justified why it isn't necessary for a smart, evil character to be disruptive to a party and indeed why they would probably be the most obliging person present.

Instead, let me say, my understanding of evil in a game-sense centres around the concept of advancement/betterment of self with little regard to the advancement/betterment of others.

In NWN, how does an evil character do this? They go and find allies, bash monsters, collect the loot, advance in ability and buy cool gear.
In NWN, how does a good character do this? They go and find friends, bash monsters, collect the loot, advance in ability and buy cool gear.

In my experience as a player (thus far) there hasn't been as much conflict as I was anticipating. The motivations might be substantially different but the modus operandi much closer together. I confess to a small amount of RP pride that my one evil PC has now interacted with prominent priest/esses of Rofi and Aeridin and them leaving with the impression of 'What a nice man'!!

As lonnarin said way up above, 'crazy, wild-eyed, black-plate, lets snarl at the shiny paladin type evil character' ... booo-ooring. He who, through challenging RP, you come to trust enough to let in to baby-sit the kids ... they're the scary ones.

[Praylor Falcus]

I for one find no lure to play an evil character and often wonder what motivates those that do. As for game play , I find those souls who show their true nature and do my best to assist them and Will travel with them at anytime, the flood of evil that has consumed the server has made many a day here a solo thing as i will not interact with known evil people.
 
     As to quest , it took me about three quest to figure out the same people rule all the quest , sad state of affairs but true. My solution , don't go on quest. Hence my character is stagnate with little hope of advancement, but that is OK to me as i play a good character and can receive enough enjoyment from escorting a newer player around or helping an old true friend recover some cnr, they know i am picky about whom i travel with and will not tolerate any disruption to party or goals, If we met someone of the vast number of "ME BAD GUY" types they have a choice, remain with me and complete the goals of said mission, or go off with the super baddie and kill everything they cross.
 Their choice.
 
     So in closing, Has evil increased? yes.  Is it affecting RP? Only if you let it.  Can anything be done to swing the server back to a more normal and even player base? Yes, solutions are simple when the problem is known, The hard part is getting enough to do the right thing, less you end up with the current situation layo faces.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

After some thought, I deleted the original text of this post, and replaced it with the following, which is something like four paragraphs (my size paragraphs) shorter.

Praylor, respectfully, all I seem to see from you is negativity. Ever. And that's just not helpful to anyone. I think it might be a lot better to spread positivity, y'know?

Thank you for your time, and sorry for continuing to drag this thread off track.

[Dorax Windsmith]

... heh, even the Norseman got kicked out of a party once... he was in favor of challenging a dragon that was eating one of the other party members... the rest of the party didn't think that was very wise... then again, old Cole was never known for his wisdom...

LOL....I remember that.  Rawkwin was like "If you can't work with us then just leave" but Dorax was thinking....uhmm Rawk, without Cole Dorax will become the Dragon's punching bag.....Good times.

[Drizzlin]

One of the funny things though is how evil characters demand lots of payment coldly from the NPC at the beginning of the quest.  Then the Paladin and the good party members speak up "never mind him, we'll do it for FREE!".

Evil gets fired pretty quickly if it can't beat pro-bono.

That being said, it's important to understand that evil seldom thinks of itself as evil.  Sure there might be a few antisocial freaks who roll around in entrials all day, licking skulls and sneering at paladins "I'm soooo eeeeeevil!"  These people are generally viewed by their ammoral peers as lonely drama-queens with little potential for advancement.  Now the tax collector who forecloses on the widow's farm, the corrupt guard who plants evidence or the vengeful soldier who slaugters without mercy... they see themselves as the last bastions of righteousness and what they do as being good.  You'll find that the most evil people in history have very lofty opinions of themselves, and are quick to categorize anybody who stands in the way of their greed as part of some nebulous, foreboding "Axis of Evil".

On the flipside, good people rarely call everybody evil to their face... The goodness within them urges them to try and ease the pain and suffering of the evil character through mental healing and redemption.  Sure, it's important to "fight evil", but only as a last resort.  Killing somebody just because they say they worship Corath is like your local minister drive-by-shooting goth kids for Jesus.

This is really one of the best and refreshing posts I have read in a long time. If you have ever gone on a quest with Daralith and there happen to be "goody" folks, such as Paladins, Daralith is always quick to point just how "evil" their good actions are.

Daralith has never seen himself as evil...he is just, well, a Dark Elf. Now that paladin who is going to cut someone down in the name of their god, all because they think differently...now that is some evil for ya!

[Drizzlin]

Another frustrating aspect of the era seems to be a tendency for betrayal or at least totally independent actions.  At least a few times I have been on quests where the group was working on sometimes long efforts and working out what action to take and then at some point a single character takes off without any discussion and changes the course of the quest against the will of the group.  Although, this happens in real life too and sometimes results in interesting twists in the outcome of the quests (so I am not saying its totally bad, please don't think I am trying to jump on anyone), it can still be very frustrating.  I guess it will be up to the good characters to kick those people out of groups if they have that tendency but I don't like the thought of that either since that's a bummer for anyone to get excluded from a quest.  I don't have a good answer here either but just thought the situation was related to other trends being discussed.

Kill them and take control of the quest back!!! =P Or kick them out and move along.

On a serious note and addressing Guynl...

I have pushed it too much on a quest before. I didn't see it that way, but the dm did and asked me to stop in a tell. I stopped and cut back. It is all about respect. It didn't matter if I thought I was going to far, someone else did, and for the better I respected the whole.

So in the end, it is all about respect.

[Chongo]

I think anyone roleplaying lawful evil or neutral evil with an intelligence above 12 should be acting incredibly subtle about their intentions.
 
 The rub here is that people are encouraged to roleplay their alignment. And a lot of misunderstanding and insecurity erupts on what acting evil really is. But in this case you can act quite *good* and even downright friendly as long as the intentions in that mind of your characters are going to come back to evil.
 
 So I would contend, that with the pressure of a new set of alignments and the urge to proove yourself, that there may be some over-roleplaying of evil.
 
 It's the intent, not the face you present. So be my best friend and stab me in the back later. Don't worry about acting evil, just be evil. The actions will come naturally at those key points when it counts.
 
 
 
 
 I'm just waiting for Elladan to come out suddenly when the time is right, and seize what is rightly his as the most senior blackguard of pyrtechnon. Razing a city when it is weak when he can finally burn away all the peon citizens he's been pretending to help for all these years.
 
 Jennara too. They've been blue contacts!  The gnomish ninja fists of doom will be upon you!  You just wait.
 
 Now that would be evil to the tee. O.o

[miltonyorkcastle]

*glances up at Dorax and chuckles* Indeed. Good times.

[Drizzlin]

I think anyone roleplaying lawful evil or neutral evil with an intelligence above 12 should be acting incredibly subtle about their intentions.
 
 The rub here is that people are encouraged to roleplay their alignment. And a lot of misunderstanding and insecurity erupts on what acting evil really is. But in this case you can act quite *good* and even downright friendly as long as the intentions in that mind of your characters are going to come back to evil.
 
 So I would contend, that with the pressure of a new set of alignments and the urge to proove yourself, that there may be some over-roleplaying of evil.
 
 It's the intent, not the face you present. So be my best friend and stab me in the back later. Don't worry about acting evil, just be evil. The actions will come naturally at those key points when it counts.
 

You are 100% correct here. The action can be judged by the whole as evil or good, but it is the intent that makes the person truly evil.

[Praylor Falcus]

After some thought, I deleted the original text of this post, and replaced it with the following, which is something like four paragraphs (my size paragraphs) shorter.
 
 Praylor, respectfully, all I seem to see from you is negativity. Ever. And that's just not helpful to anyone. I think it might be a lot better to spread positivity, y'know?
 
 Thank you for your time, and sorry for continuing to drag this thread off track.

 
 
    Fluffy topics don't interest me, And truth is never negative......It just hurts sometimes>

[Varka]

*looks up and considers for a while and adds a few lines which does not make too much sense*

Internal conflicts in a group is good.
Then recall you have "quest-time" and "non-quest-time". The weight of each is difference.

Conflicts are only interesting for me if "it" will have a consequence (the scale is big of course). This I have tried to push through some times but it will leave a mesh behind. Further other players dont like it always.

Ex: If Varka would on one quest find something out about an evil player and kicked his rear. Forcing him out of the group the good brute way... do you think Varka would forget it by the next quest or the next may the other player show up again? Or would he rub it in his face and try to get him away?

Once I hit the nail 110% right and it fit my player Varka just how it should be. It was IC-thing that meant almost more to me than my WLDQ but the consequence that followed and the mesh. Well I will not go into any details.  

I learned alot from it and I will most likely never do that again as it broke the
fun in playing (for some time) even for me who..in some way won the verbal fight.

After 3 years of playing here you have seen and tried a lot and at some point you even ask yourself. "Why even bother".

*looks to Dezzas first post*
The times in Layo are changed and as some mentioned in a post the Good guys have maybe come more Dark Good...or let me say I tried to make a group called the "Grey Ghost".
Shortly and simply told: A group of high level folks which would grab the law into their own hands (following their own values and moral - maybe in the direction of LN...this came though never that far so..)
and jugde/excute it... - It could have become a "hunt" - in many ways.


That was some random thoughts I had, take it was you want it while I try to find myself a new goal...