necromancy and the law

[tom bombadill]

wondering what the law says about necromancy as my paladin of rofirein witnessed the summons of a shadow by a pc near hlint, now with all the current trouble and red fog and such. i feel that it should be an important and alarming sight. wondering how that would be RP by a npc paladin of rofirein? and not that i created the character to be a authority in the game, but by definition of the class and diety i am somewhat of one. in the absence of any npc law giver the responsibility would defualt to those of toran and rofirein, on minor offences only according to the law, can, should , and how far is this to be RP'd on other pc's.

[ZeroVega]

Currently, I do not think there are any laws against using Necromancy. There are "laws" against committing acts of evil, Ie: Killing, stealing, errm.....killing and "stuff." And as I've seen many many wizards use Necromancy spells, even some I know both OOC and IC cannot be evil, I don't think it would be outlawed unless something big happend in game. Now using a Necromancy spell to put a Permanent Level Drain on the King of Dregar on a quest......errm......that might do it.
  ZV-

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I think that one thing should be pretty obvious: "Raising the slain or rotting corpse of a ally or enemy cannot be regarded as anything but evil!" There are numerous who would like to engage into long, and time-consuming discussions on this issue... and there might be one, maybe two situations, where this would be regarded as not evil - but never it can be good! So... wizards, sorcerers and priests who raise undead, commit acts of evil, every time, they raise a corpse to do their bidding. Regardsless of their alignment, they commit an evil deed.

I think it would be nice if you would move one point towards evil, every time you use that spell...

Harlas

[Zhofe]

Not true, because a priest of a good god could be calling slain heroes to aid him in one fight, to put an evil to rest so that they may sleep eternally.

Lets say you have a paladin that cannot be accpted into heaven because he died dishonorably, a priest of a good god could summon this one's spirit and give it a chance at redemption.

A person of a good alignment however should only call these unredeemed spirits in times of dire need ...

[Juste]

All of the undead animating spells (Animate Dead, Create Undead and Create Greater Undead) have the evil descriptor, this means they are evil aligned spells, and using them is an evil action.

Also, no matter how you slice it, animating someones corpse is downright insulting to the person it's done to. Animate Dead doesn't restore heroes of old to fight for you, it animates bones or corpses in a manner much like a golem, there is no soul in it. So no, you don't bring back the spirit of a fallen Paladin to fight for you, but you might animate the bones once into some 4 intelligence creature that obeys your every whim, is that not insulting to his memory? To have a once great leader and speaker become a skeleton with no intelligence to speak of. The bones are also destroyed after the spell ends, meaning you can't keep animating the same bones over and over.
The Create Undead line create an evil, sentient, undead creature, there is no way using such a spell can be a good act. (The creature created is evil by nature)

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Aye

[Reventage]

Alright, let’s clear this thing once and for all: The spell "Animate dead" has nothing to do with calling forth the soul of a slain hero or a dead friend.

This is straight from the Player's Handbook:

Animate Dead

Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.

The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)

Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit)

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.


Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.

Material Component: You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.



You can read this in what ever manner you wish, but the spell does not offer your long dead friend a few more seconds to spend with the living. When you cast this, you animate a corpse to become your mindless servant. Period.

[Zhofe]

Didn't realize they had the evil mark next to them. I was just trying to explain in RP why a good person would use such a spell.

If that is the case, then animating the dead is evil, and should be looked down upon.

[Kethryc]

I dissagree, I think it can be constude as evil, but what if you want to be a palemaster?  Evil is not a requisite.  Only non-good.  I have a wizard who is aspiring to such a station (Not elinmire), and I see it as only an overanxious interest in death and the dead.

    I can see PC's reactions to the act distasteful, but then again, they can be either bigotrous or open to interperitation.   Do only the evil unstand death?  Do only the evil utilize the husks of those that have past?  It may have an evil discriptor, but I think it can be played neutrally quite easily, when the motive is not evil intentions.

Keth

[Aragon]

Crimes and their Punishment by Category

Crimes and their punishments are decided directly by the Judge who oversees the trial. However, the following are general guidelines to crime and punishment:

Major Crimes (Usually carry sentences of death or imprisonment)
*Murder

Intermediate Crimes (Do not carry sentences of death but usually prolonged periods of imprisonment or hard labor)
*Counterfeiting
*Impersonation of a law enforcement official
*Rape
*Theft of valuable items (repeat offenses)
*Manslaughter
*Adultery

Minor Crimes (Will never carry death sentences and rarely long term prison sentences. More likely, community service or rehabilitation at correctional institutes, time in the stocks, fines, flogging, etc)
*Minor theft (first offense)
*Assault
*Resisting arrest
*Slander
*Worship of unrecognized deities determined to be evil or directly threatening to the continent.
*Harboring criminals


Straight from the Scrolls, nothing in here about creating undead being a crime.  I do say it is frowned upon by most people to do such an act.  Creating one in the city would definately bring consternation to the individual.  It could be considered a practice of those who worship evil deities and thus punished as a minor crime.  Just a reminder though, no one is allowed to kill another persons summons, even if they summon an undead you can not dispel or attack it to destroy it.  You can RP your disdain for their action but to attack their summon is the same as attacking the person and we all know that pvp is outlawed by the Big L"awmaker"

[Harlas Ravelkione]

RP an attack on the summon is alright though. So, if that happens, I would ask you to unsummon it. And... if you encounter undead in the wilds, in the crypt or in every dungeon on layonara, you kill it. Why would you not kill one, that is summoned by a player?

Harlas

[cappyra]

I don't think this can be a summed up by a discription in the players handbook with (evil) beside the spell name.  There is quite a bit of gray area here that should be considered.  Of course we must also consider perception.  

First the rules are the rules.  But there are also rules for Layonara that are not part of the rules for NWN or AD&D for that matter.

Back in the day when I ran a world of my own, rules were the general guideline however it was also my world the character's were playing in.  I did not want to cap creativity by playing strictly by the rules.  So I would adjust rules to fit my world.

Now that being said lets look at Paladins.  Paladins, being the religious zealots they are only see things in Black or White.  Undead are EVIL abominations period and must be destroyed.  Undead are not just Zombies and Skeletons... there are Spectres, Wraiths, Liches, Ghouls, Ghasts and lets not forget ghosts.   What if a Paladin were to encounter a ghost that found itself stranded on the prime material plane and could never find rest until a specific purpose had been fullfilled.  Without question the Paladin destroys the ghost... because after all it is undead and an abomination and MUST be destroyed... now the Paladin has just ensured an eternity of pain and suffering to what could be an innocent soul. . .

Otherwise I think it would basically have to do with purpose and intent.  While using magic to animate corpses would probably be veiwed as dark, distasteful and most likely evil by the general populace... doesn't mean that it IS evil.  According to your post the spell has nothing to do with calling forth the soul...  so basically you are making a bunch of flesh and bones get up walk around and do your bidding. The flesh and bones are merely the construction make up of the spell.  There is no spiritual attachment to the animated corpse.

I do agree however that the spell could not be used to bring back a fallen Paladin to redeeme himself.  It would be a good roleplay however to have a Fallen Paladin's corpse animated... then have the Fallen Paladin's diety place his/her soul within the corpse as part of the process of redemption.  Imagine the Fallen Paladin running around trying to do good or complete a Holy Quest... as a Zombie. Heh.

Anyway.  I hope I made a point.  I don't think the best argument here is that because the book places the word evil in parentheses beside the spell name that it cannot be used otherwise.

I mean... don't we have Good Drow?

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Nay!    

[Aragon]

Because its an attack on the player that summoned it.  And the player can not do anything to stop it.  This needs to be responded to by a DM.  Even if you are RP your character you are still attacking another character, weither it is a summons, a familiar or the character themselves you are still attacking them in a non-pvp environment.  Just think about it a moment, how is the player to react to you attacking their summons?  There response would be hostile to your actions thus resulting in pvp.  I have had this happen several times and the last time it happend Orth informed the offender that his actions were against the rules.  Just as a mage uses a familiar to take the blunt of the attack so do most other people who summon undead, so you kill their undead and now they are left to get back on their own.  So essentially you put them at the risk of being killed by a random spawn.  If I am wrong in this then lets have one of the GMs correct this.

[Leanthar]

Aragon is 100% correct.  In NO WAY (and I have said this at least 100 times) is another player to engage in ANY form of PvP/PK'ing/Griefing. 
  The ONLY way PvP is allowed is if a GM is contacted and it is approved by said GM AND that GM is on scene and watching the action. 
  Period.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I was talking about RP'ing the kill of a zombie or skeleton warrior. Like *Kobal sees the undead, gasps, and runs over, drawing his axe, then slaying the undead form*. If the caster then unsummons the spawn, it would seem like it was killed by the player. Just talking roleplay here.

Another thought that came to my mind is that Layonara tries to be as true to PnP as possible. If a character in a good-aligned party (in PnP) summons an undead, they would in 9 out of 10 situations turn om him instantly. And civilised cities in PnP worlds would have laws that permitted undead from walking the street - for obvious reasons. What happens outside the cities, or in outlawed towns or cities is, of course, a whole other story.

Harlas

[Leanthar]

Yeah, I hear you Harlas and I agree.  But it is an online world and it is impossible to police that sort of thing.  If we allow what "would normally happen" begin to happen then we might as well turn on the PvP switch--not something I want to do.
  If I were running a PnP game (online in this world) (ie.  6-10 players) indeed I would allow all of that to happen and I would want it to happen for the RP value and immersion.  But sadly I don't see how to do this online in a world that is up 24/7. 
  Unless you have an idea that would allow it to happen without some sort of PvP thing.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Sadly, I don't. I know this is not going to happen. And personally I like the concept of necromancy and undead, as long as it fits to the characters. I think there are only a very few types of mages/sorcerers/priests, who summon undead.

There are those who do it "in-character". They summon it and they RP it all the way, because that is what their character would do, and does...

There are those who summon skeleton warriors to be able to solo areas they otherwise would not be able to do on their own. Most of those would unsummon their undead as soon as another character approaches, but oftentimes it would be too late, and they will try to find a lame excuse for it.

Then there are those who think that their alignment judging their actions and not the other way around. I had a discussion with a player not too long ago, who summoned a skeleton warrior in a quest. My character got very mad at him, until (after like discussing this for 15 minutes) I realized he had no clue that others would judge the summoning of an undead as an evil action. He kept saying "I am lawfull good! How can I be evil?". There is little I can say to these players besides, think your actions through, before commiting them.

... just rambling a bit here.

Harlas

[Aragon]

I agree with you Harlas, if your not evil or your not trying to become evil then you shouldn't be summoning evil creatures.  This includes summons of evil planar creatures and undead.  A good character should not be casting animate dead.  I travel with my skeleton often because I know that my character does not fit well with the "Goodie-goodies".  But when I do I will only summon my skeleton when it looks like the group is going to get overrun.  When with my own kind I summon him freely and those with me know that to be IC.  I think the point is that people need to consider the consequences of thier actions and keep those action within the believable realm for thier character.

[Leanthar]

Again you are right Harlas.  People need to think before using the summons. 
  Sadly it is very difficult to police this stuff and I'm sorry but my large team only has so much volunteer time in a day... This would be a full time job for a team of 20ish...
  And I think we need to help players and run quests before jumping in to that other stuff.