Drow

[DanMacNWN]

That's all fine and dandy but the truth is that those rare few drows that are not evil will always suffer the ridicule due to the actions of their 'kin'. If all of this 'needs to be considered' then it needs to be taught IC by a drow trying to change the perspective of the average drow hater.

[DanMacNWN]

dang ... set up a reply and get beaten to the punch by a few others :p

[ZeroVega]

  My only point is. The vast majority of the drow race, is evil. No one (unless they're from another plane) has not heard of drow, and certianly ALL elves have. I'm young, but I've learned of a lot of the big history from 4-500 years back. Even though Hampshire was sacked 600 years ago, it's the largest city in the world (by population) it lost 5 million gold, and was attacked by drow and dragons. Not easily forgotten.
    Of course not everyone needs to hate drow. But when I see a dwarf or elf not shoot a second look at a drow or four, it worries me.

[Ayreon]

DanMacNWN - 7/13/2005  12:05 PM

That's all fine and dandy but the truth is that those rare few drows that are not evil will always suffer the ridicule due to the actions of their 'kin'. If all of this 'needs to be considered' then it needs to be taught IC by a drow trying to change the perspective of the average drow hater.

Exactly.

like I said, it's not an issue of good drow and bad drow. It's about a reputation of pure treachory and maliciousness.

I think the GMs should remind people of their bad rep again, in Hlint. *sinister smile*

[Thunder Pants]

seems everytime this comes up people say "well not all drow are evil" or "well there are evil humans in the world to" well while both are correct, you also have to realise that the percentage of evil drow is around 90% where as the percentage of evil humans is somewhere closer to 50% at worse, this means that 9 out of every ten drow would rather see your head upon a stick then heal your wounds (this has always been Lue's experience, she's met all of maybe 15 friendly drow, and yet she's had to fight and kill easily more then 100 of them.....

honestly while she realises they arn't all evil, the number of good ones is so small that it isn't worth trusting the ones she does meet

[Ayreon]

That's a really good point, Thunder.

I'd also like to add that many surface drow are good only because they left/exhiled/chased out because they came to know Az'atta, did not agree with the lifestyle, or some other reason. In the Underdark, I would assume that the good would be killed, as they are not sinister enough to handle the traditional drow lifestyle.

So while the ratio of good drow:bad drow may seem high, you have to account for the thousands more drow in the Underdark. I would assume Thunder's 90% figure mostly refers to those who live in the underdark, and the other 10% accounts mostly for those who live on the surface. It's like being in town, when you are in hlint, there is about 1,800 locals who's presence must be imagined. For every 1 or 2 good drow on the surface, there are thousands of evil ones underground.

[Imperious]

Sorry, all. While I don't doubt that long-lived races will suspect Drow (and should), I am having trouble getting my hands around this concept that all humans would automatically hate, fear, attack, whatever Drow...I think my main issue, and perhaps Leanther's recent thread about no more Drow PCs addresses this, is that I haven't "felt" that in the game.  

When you see a lot of Drow in Layo, and none of them have attacked you, and even the most ornery-acting one has actually saved your life, it's difficuilt to see them as vicious, back-stabbing, etc. Heck, I ran into a small meeting of Drow in the Inn a week or two back...Just sitting there, having ales and discussing things...I'm supposed to fear these guys!    And no disrespect to the Drow I've met...they've been great RPers, but given that their characters are "rebels" and generally good, again, not feeling any wave of hate or concern. So that's my character on a personal level.

On the larger picture, the whole Hampshire destruction was 600 years ago (many human generations) and the way history tends to change throughout centuries, and I'm not so certain that the Drow wouldn't be met with any different kind of prejudice that humans might give to elves, dwarves, gnomes.  (Citizens of Hlint and Hampshire perhaps being an exception). Ignorance, suspicion, perhaps, maybe? In independent towns where people have to prove themselves, like Hlint actually, the populace might even be more accepting. But I see and have felt nothing special...Much more concern about Blood and his minions...

And maybe that's the issue....maybe, as someone mentioned, we need to make the Drow special again....and maybe an attack on Hlint is in order....of course, if Ketzia sees some Drow PCs help defend the town against Drow, well, then she'll be completely confused and won't know what to think  

Finally, it's one thing to read about how evil Drow are on the forums....quite another to experience it in the game...that said, let's bring them on!

[ZeroVega]

  Hampshire might have been 600 years ago, but Hlints attacks, and more recent attacks all over Mistone were not. I'd think close to 20+ PCs have been killed by two or three DM controlled drow assassins. An army of drow poured from the Hlint crypts not long ago.
    I'll admit, not all drow are evil. But when 90%+ of all drow are evil. When you grow up and hear stories of drow who've raided villages, slaughtered hundreds, and eaten the hearts of little children (sorry), geeze why would you even give them the chance to act "good."
    The problems here that I see are...
[list=1]

• Some people can't properly RP their hatred because they can't kill or attack.
• Some people who play drow characters bring up the old "not all drow are evil" thing, and it works.
  
• And the main thing is, many are acting like people won't remember what drow have done.

 Have any of you read a book called Fly Boys? It's a book about WW II in the Pacific. The horrors that went on there... actual canibalism... it something that after reading I will never forget. Some things, when printed into someones mind will never leave, and the acts of drow fall into that category.

[Ayreon]

Imperious - 7/13/2005  1:42 PM

"When you see a lot of Drow in Layo, and none of them have attacked you..."

ZV says they attacked Hlint 4 times recently. While not everyone was there, perhaps some of the other 1800 citizens in Hlint were?

People like Ketzia do not have to hate drow, because of who she is. And there are many others that are the same.

I think the intent of this post was raise awareness of how soft people have become to them.

[Talan Va'lash]

My personal take:

Talan has been an adventurer and a soldier before that for quite a while.  He's seen blood, blood's generals, stood before every chromatic alive, and then some, fought demon princes, fought beside a dragon, Seen the demon mountains, the peaks of voltrex, The lair of fisterion... He really isnt going to be phased by relatively weak drow on the surface, or half-giants, goblins etc.

He would be much more guarded if a Drow Archmage walks into hlint... but for most interactions he'll speak to, banter with, perhaps mildly harass drow, but more to see their reactions to judge them and their abilities.  But if something goes wrong and this lone drow or small group of drow attacks, he is confident he will cut them down.

Most hate is based in fear, and without that fear, (and many convoluded past experiences that complicate matters) He does not hate.

I guess this is a higher level character type stance, and there are many PCs that would fear some of the "bad race" PCs, but keep in mind that hate and fear are closely linked when considering your characters motives.

Even a level 10 character has seen a lot, and likely developed a certain confidence, or at least knows their own abilities.  As such, I dont find it overly belivable if they were to jump every time a goblin, or drow walked past them.  Of course, they might have another reason to hate a certain race... be it rengance or something else.

-TV

[Imperious]

Z.V. and Ayreon:

First, thanks for the posts. This has been good. I'm really not trying to be contrary (although given the number of times I've posted today, it would be hard to believe that).

Second, I'm relatively new to Layo (about a month), and while I try to keep up with the forums, I miss a lot of things. I wasn't aware of all of these attacks or the assassins or armies, although I think that the fact that I haven't is somewhat instructional on how news and events actually permeate worlds (both real and imagined). As I said, I spent a fair amount of time on the forums and looking back at older posts, but even then a lot of this is new to me.

Certainly nearly all Drow are evil...I suspect good ones make up a very small percentage (one half of one percent or whatever Leanthar and the GMs decide). No argument here.  

Third and finally, I guess I thought people were becoming "soft" on Drow because we were seeing a change...the number of Drow, and the number of interactions with them that lots of people had with them, were increasing, thus making them less scary and mystersious. My character came in at that point, but even from an objective point of view, there seemed to be less overall suspicion.  Again, a timeline that points out to me the last major Drow activity was more than 600 years ago, but with lots of events about Blood, etc. said that to me. It had me thinking that the increaing number of Drow was a change, an evolution...this is what I meant about not necesssarily "feeling" the Drow threat in the game.

Clearly, this thread and Leanthar's recent post clearly indicates a change, and that's fine. Just my observations.

[ZeroVega]

A response to Talan's post in another thread:
  Drow get +2 Intelligence and +2 Charisma. That basicly makes them a spell caster happy subrace (anyone seen how many drow Wizards/Sorcerers there are?).
  They get 10, +2/2 levels Spell Resistance, and they have it with them all the time. It's like having one of the most powerful clerical spells stuck to you all the time.
  Now they get this stuff, and no "real" drawbacks other than the ELC. These guys aren't just being played for a "cool factor" as was said in another post. Somewhere in the subconcious minds of everyone who's submitted a drow, they've taken this into account. Either way drow are not going to be approved for 2 1/2 months and then they'll get looked at again.

[Ayreon]

Imperious - 7/13/2005  2:51 PM

Second, I'm relatively new to Layo (about a month), and while I try to keep up with the forums, I miss a lot of things. I wasn't aware of all of these attacks or the assassins or armies, although I think that the fact that I haven't is somewhat instructional on how news and events actually permeate worlds (both real and imagined). As I said, I spent a fair amount of time on the forums and looking back at older posts, but even then a lot of this is new to me.

It is definitely a indication of news permeates through the world, like you said. I have actually only been here for a couple weeks, and I've heard this account several times. Two or three times by Celgar, and then other scattered invidiuals.

So as far as how news travels...it seems to be quite random!! I'm not trying to  suggest that I researched the world more or anything like that, so please don't misread me (this is the internet, and that tends to happen). I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

I would say most of the drow on the surface are genuinely good, as far as I can see. This would eliminate much suspicion amongst humans, I would suspect. We have to be mindful of all of the "imaginary" citizens of layo, including the much higher population of evil drow (than good), and the 1,800 citizens of Hlint (seeing as there is about 30-60 people on at a time, it can be hard to remember). I guess my assumption is, like in the real world, tragedy of the past would be permanently set in their memories.

Ayreon feels very strongly about proving himself to the surfacers, and I believe he was one of the drow you mentioned at the Inn. When he first started he was given much more prejudice (by chance of meeting drow disliking RPers), which was very welcoming in a strange way.    

" I'm really not trying to be contrary (although given the number of times I've posted today, it would be hard to believe that)."

Don't worry about it, you have helped prolong a good discussion. Thank you.  

[ZeroVega]

  We also had a huge influx of new players to Layonara roughly a month ago. Most of these events happened a few months ago before the newer players started streaming in. Trust me, as this event was going on (and it still is though it's discrete I believe) EVERYONE knew about it, however at least half of the people playing now adays missed the loud and inclusive part of the event so they're only catching tales from those who were/are involved.

[regnus]

ZeroVega - 7/13/2005  6:02 PM These guys aren't just being played for a "cool factor" as was said in another post. Somewhere in the subconcious minds of everyone who's submitted a drow, they've taken this into account. Either way drow are not going to be approved for 2 1/2 months and then they'll get looked at again.

 I cant speak for anyone else, but I submitted Owen with the idea of playing a drow for one because it was a 'cool' subrace.  The other reason was that I wanted to find a way to play a drow that was different than the old cliche that was popularized by R.A. Salvatore.  I saw their bonuses and thought to myself that the race was pretty powerful, but I can honestly tell you that it had no real effect on my decision.  It was more of an underdog trying to make his way in the world idea.  I mean, Owen is a bard.  How many drow bards are there?  I just thought it would be fun to do something completely different and out there.  I really wasnt sure it would work but I thought it would at least get me familiar with Layonara so I could submit a different character.  Then I fell in love with Owen and got more involved in playing him.    *shrugs*  Thats not to say that you are not correct about 90 some percent of the other submissions.  I dont know.  This is just my perspective.  I can tell you that I am ecstatic that L put a hold on drow submissions.  When I see a different drow almost every time I walk through Hlint, I think it is time to limit their availability.  Again, my opinion only.  This is nothing against anyone currently playing a drow.

[Chuckles_McChuck]

You can always count on Lia to make drow feel unwelcomed, accually you can kinda count on her to make anyone feel unwelcomed really, heh.  Now, I know, my character happens to work with a drow, but the reason why... he is one of the leaders of a wizards guild, that one day could have tons of influence and power within the magical world of Layonara, she decided to become a leader as well because she cannot let him rule unchallenged, and so conflict of leaders will persue which will make the guild very interesting down the road (I think it would be cool if we had enough members where even factions within the guild were made to eventually challenge eachother, some siding with the drow, others opposing.)  I dont however have my character kill those in sight or make conflict with them for too long under a few reasons, for one, despite what you think, Lia tries to avoid physical conflict for many reasons that if you wish to find out you will have to in game .  And two, also despite what you think she doesn't hate the race, she will eventually when she is able, but not now; though, she has enough knowledge and experience with thier kind to know that they cannot be trusted.  So instead she will try and make them leave her, and if that doesn't work she will make them feel very unwelcomed

[regnus]

Owen can vouch for Lia hating drow.  

[Etinfall]

*Cole stares at the drow, drawing his sword* hmmph...another one" he mutters. "What do you want?" he asks the dark elf, but before he can answer, Cole turns his back to him and walks away, waiting for the attack.


Cole hates drow. Maybe for different reasons, but he hates them. He even tried to not hate them but that failed. Cole has actually been called racist by harping about drow. Drow are most welcome by most it seems...traitors.

Etinfall

[Andrexea]

Im sorry to say that I half to agree that the drow arent quite hated as they should be,  and I play a drow!  While it DOES make it easyer for me to find groups and such ive only ever met 1 pc, and it was an elf that actually acted like he wanted to kill me!!  O there are plenty who joke about killing me,  I think ozy has first pick and path has 2nd pick but the line seem's to have a few takers as well.   Its just that I find it hard to believe as im walking through hlint and I run across someone ive never met before and who doesnt know of me smile, walks up to me and introduces themselves.  To, kinda help out with this I have taken to wearing my hemlet most of the time so people wouldn't exactly know that I am drow so they would have no reason to walk up to me in greeting.  *shrugs* Just somthing to think about.  If Hlint was attacked by assassian's recentally then the people of Hlint would still hate drow.  You talk about humans having short life spans and such but just think of it this way.  If a group of assassians attacked your home town slaughtering all who they come across how long do you think the people of your town would remember such an act? Just somthing to think about the next time you think about running up to a drow and introduce yourself.   

[Zhofe]

To be perfectly honest, all of my characters have excuses.

Ash is just plain fricken weird ... He'd hit on a half-orc woman if given the chance and for some reason worships Azatta, mostly because it helps him to be able to forgive the people in his past.

Hyuga, being from a completly different world, had seen no race other than humans until his arrival on Layo, and actually met a Drow before meeting an elf ... and no one actually explained to him the difference, so he very well may end up calling normal elves Drow (and THAT will be funny!)

Quin ... well, Quin was caught up in the whole Drow assassin thing, and Quin really tried to hate the drow ... but people like Synaldur and Marainna and Tathnolu kept coming to mind, and he couldn't hate them. (well ... Tath is weird ... but Quin trusts him anyway)

Barravelve was a drow, and he hated surfacers. One time another player had the decency to spit on him, and he went out of his way to give her a good death threat or two. I think he also mentioned how pretty Brisbane was, and how fair a price she would fetch as a slave in the underdark.

Khalid was senile, and drunk, and half blind and deaf .... he probably wouldn't know a drow from a cow half the time ...

Well ... I have to agree that it is a shame that not many people here are willing to RP a hatred of Drow, but I think that for most, it isn't a central point of their character. I did not plan Quin as a friend to Drow, and infact, initially, I wanted to make a character distrustull of non-humans in general ... That much was impractical on so many levels that I couldn't do it. (especially considering the whole first character on pretty much my first online gaming experience.) Then I had my first run-in with a drow, and by the time I (the player) really registered he was a drow (mind you he was completly visible as one, no mistaking it) we had already been buddying around for a bit.

Hating another players character is something that doesn't come easy ... it is hard for me to hate the characters of people like Chanda, Marcus Perrin, and their various assassociates and they are really truely outright as evil as characters really get on this server (aside from Rufus ... but he scares the crap out of me ...)

Anyway ... there is more than my share of input, and I forgot where I was going with it because it is about 4:00AM ... make of it what you will.