hatred

[KageKeeper]

Zhofe - 7/15/2005  5:48 PM

Being a Drow is reason for attack ...

If attacking a drow in town is evil then attackin the undead in town is also evil

Afterall, they are just living impaired ...

I mean really, if attacking is evil then we are ALL evil, and should all be perma-retired because we went evil without a CDQ.

Don't get me wrong, I'll defend your right to not hate drow just as much as I will defend your right to hate them.

I do not agree with this statement. Attacking Undead is not evil. Undead are an abomination.

Also, attacking a goblin or any other monster is not evil. That is self-defense as they are aggresive first.

I think there is a subtle difference there.

[steverimmer]

KageKeeper - 7/16/2005  2:51 AM

Also, attacking a goblin or any other monster is not evil. That is self-defense as they are aggresive first.

I think there is a subtle difference there.

Heh I don't think any court in the land would accept the murder of someone who attacked you because you broke into there home as good

[Ayreon]

On the flip side alignment could dictate that you run drow out of town. Let me explain.

For an LG character of a more noble class (Paladin perhaps), if a group of drow walk into town he might be compelled to try and stop this. If he doesn't, how does he know they won't go on a rampage? There have been 4 attacks on Hlint in recent years by drow. What if he did nothing, and many people died. A perceived evil group walks into town...he might do something. THey could be a threat to the law, and the peace.

It depends largely on the character of the PC, as alignments are only a guideline. Also keep in mind that CG characters do not like neutral or evil characters. They would never attack one who is unarmed, but when have you seen a drow who doesn't carry a weapon (at least in his pack)?

[Ayreon]

KageKeeper - 7/15/2005  5:51 PM

Zhofe - 7/15/2005  5:48 PM

Being a Drow is reason for attack ...

If attacking a drow in town is evil then attackin the undead in town is also evil

Afterall, they are just living impaired ...

I mean really, if attacking is evil then we are ALL evil, and should all be perma-retired because we went evil without a CDQ.

Don't get me wrong, I'll defend your right to not hate drow just as much as I will defend your right to hate them.

I do not agree with this statement. Attacking Undead is not evil. Undead are an abomination.

Also, attacking a goblin or any other monster is not evil. That is self-defense as they are aggresive first.

I think there is a subtle difference there.

Undead, huh. A true druid Necromancers would disagree.

[Zhofe]

How are the undead an abomnation? Just because they aren't like you? Because they kill indescriminantly? Hey, that sounds an awefull lot like the general perception of Drow.

aAnd since necromancy is sanctioned by Lucinda, don't bring in the unnatural life thing. The undead have as much right to life as anyone else.

[KageKeeper]

Zhofe - 7/15/2005  6:01 PM

How are the undead an abomnation? Just because they aren't like you? Because they kill indescriminantly? Hey, that sounds an awefull lot like the general perception of Drow.

aAnd since necromancy is sanctioned by Lucinda, don't bring in the unnatural life thing. The undead have as much right to life as anyone else.

hahaha..you will *never* convice Luna of that. *chuckles*

Note: I am not offended by any of this. Just trying to add my opinion. At least as how Luna sees it.

[Zhofe]

Quin'd kill a deader and defend a drow anyday. Just bringing up the ludicrous.

[Etinfall]

I would love to see this conversation in game. Then Cole can show the spider shaped scar in his neck. Can show the inn where drow assasins killed people having drinks and laughter. Can show where the portal was that allowed all those drow into hlint to kill many. I have never seen Garent fight like that. If you would have seen him you wouldn't be asking what he does for Hlint besides walk around. Then I would take you to Krandor where a drow assasin attacked me and a friend with a poison arrow. That instance there changed Cole forever. Then we can go into the underdark and ask the drow how they feel about us not likeing them...

Course that would be an in game thing...right?

Edit:forgot to mention Spellguard. That whole town was sacked. Couldn't even get in there.

[Zhofe]

And Quin would show you the gates he too has helped defend, and the place were a drow woman fought and died against her brethren and gained no help, and then take you to Krandor where his lover was struck with a similar poison arrow ... and then after that introduce you to Mara and Kaylo and Synaldur, his friends, who did nothing wrong, but suffer anyway.

Arguement goes both ways.

[Talan Va'lash]

Steve said: "Heh I don't think any court in the land would accept the murder of someone who attacked you because you broke into there home as good"

Acctually, I forget what state it was in.. one of the eastern ones I'm sure (NY or Mass likely) A guy tried to break into someones house through the skylight, fell through, and landed on an upturned knife on the island in the center of their kitchen.

He sued, and recieved an out of court settlement.

Um.. i guess the moral of this story is... Thats screwed up.

On the other side of the issue is the state of colorado, which passed the "Make My Day" law in the late 80's or early 90's that authorized you to shoot or sick your dogs on anyone that broke into your property.

What a diverse and weird country many of us live in.

[Imperious]

Several people have posted on this thread something to the effect of, if attacking a Drow in town is evil, then so is attacking undead, ogres, orcs, goblins, etc.

With all due respect, I must respectfully disagree (can't you just feel the respect oozing out of this message?).

A couple of reasons, both RP and because of in-game mechanics.

First, if I go out to the Red Light Goblins with the intention of attacking them, I do so because:

1) it's a game, and in order to advance, there need to be monsters against which to gain experience;
2) I know that they're evil because they show up as red when my arrow goes over them (in-game mechanics)

Thus, I know that if I go near them, they will attack me.  I will have to defend myself. They are evil. They are irreversibly evil. There's no choice here. If I don't defend myself, I will die.

But if I went to the Red Light Caverns, and the goblins surprised me and only lit up as blue (neutral), then I have a choice. If I wantonly attack them without first investigating, talking to them, etc, then I am evil. Perhaps I might find out they're a new tribe, aren't interested in combat, whatever, etc. Should I still be suspicious?  Of course!  Good isn't stupid. But if they're lit blue, and I attack them, then I have done the same thing as attacking a Drow in the town simply because he's a Drow. And that's evil.

Some of you might be thinking that I'm taking advantage of the in-game mechanics. Sure. It does speed things up. But even if we didn't have that and had to roleplay encounters like that, the end result would be the same. Undead, goblins, orcs, ogres, etc. would attack nearly most of the time. It's their nature. But good players would wait to see what happened, neutral or evils might charge right in.  If those monsters don't attack, then for good players at least, other choices must be made.

Attacking is not good or evil of itself...it's the choices and decisions we make (or assume) along the way, and each particular situation, that dictates whether it might be considered good or evil. Which is why attacking a Drow in town for no reason is evil, but the comparison doesn't work.

[steverimmer]

I would say though that that arguement doesn't work....for instance goblins are normally described as chaotic as far as I'm aware, not evil.  If you read the handbook there society dosn't look particulary evil but different.  Now look at it from this point of view...when the drow attacked Hlint they came in with with weapons drawn magically protected and enhanced etc.  And what did the PC's do....we attacked no one tried to stop and talk to them, to welcome them with a cup of tea and a biscut.  In the same way when adventures go into monster areas they go in with weapons drawn and magic shields up etc etc and what do the monsters do?....Of course they do exactly the same as us they attacked.

So no I can't agree that PC drows can be regarded as good and attacking them is automatically evil.

[Zhofe]

We are talkng in a strictly RP sense, and in a strictly RP sense, the little highight doesn't exist.

In a strictly RP sense it is just as possible that one of those goblins didn't want to fight you, but you decapitated it before it had a chance to defend itself.

What if a DM had been controllng it, and was about to ask for mercy? I had something similar happen to me on another server.

The point is, that attacking something thought of as evil is generally an act considered good.I am sure Garrent would applaud a dwarf chasing a drow out of town, no matter how good the drow was.

Now, in a game mechanic sense, we know that the drow are PCs, and that they are neutral or good, but our characters do not know that, so we act accordingly. We test the waters, we attack them, and if they try and gut us it was bad. If it walks away, it was probably still bad to such a PC, but I don't know many players that will chase after a hated race decides to leave, because afterall, that is what the PC wants.

Alignment has alot to do with motive, and I don't think anyone chases drow out of town just to be a jerk. They do it to protect themselves and those they love.

Now, in game, my character takes a very different approach, and is very open and welcoming. I believe that the people should be able to play either way without any strict consequences unless of course thier attacks are so violent that it is pretty much griefing.

[Imperious]

Replying to both of the previous emails

1) They're evil because I don't have to go in with weapons drawn, I just have to be around them....they attack me regardless...there is no choice involved with them.  My whole party could be on a scouting mission and accidentally get to close to these creatuers and we're immediately attacked. I could walk up to them with absolutely no inventory, completely unequipped, telling them I come in peace.  They attack me regardless.  That's evil behavior.  It may be computer-generated behavior, it may be limited behavior, but's it evil behavior.

2) talking in a strictly RP sense? Sure.  I like your example.  What if a DM had been controlling it and a goblin begged for mercy?  As I said in my post, that's when decisions and choices have to be made, especially for good characters. If I was in the Red Light Caverns and a goblin did that, as a good character, I would need to stop attacking. If I ever hear a goblin say that, and i continue attacking when I had a chance to stop, I'd have to say that was an evil act.

The game mechanics faciliate this role-playing to some extent, which is why GM quests are so great because they can throw in surprises like evil creatures that want to surrender, are actually good, etc. But just because it's a game mechanics feature doesn't make it any less relevant for purposes of our discussion.

I'm not sure I agre that "attacking something thought of as evil is generally an act considered good." Garrent might applaud a dwarf chasing a Drow out of town, but that has nothing to be with that act being good or evil. I'm also not sure about your comments about "we test the waters, we attack them."  I'm not sure testing the waters by attacking them is a great way to decide if something is good or evil, but I don't think I'm reading your post right, sorry.

I guess my issue is the idea of characters falling back on prejudices with their RP. Let me state clearly, I have no problems with characters disliking, hating other races, etc.It can be great RP, absolutely.

But prejudice and hate are explanations of behavior, but they are not justifications for behavior.

[Zhofe]

Okay, and what about goblins that are following people into town? I've seen those killed pretty quick. What if he just wanted water?

What if a GM was controlling that goblin too. Would there even be a chance to say "stop!" before it was dead? No, it wouldn't, and I've seen that very thing happen on another server.

A goblin had surrendered to my character, and wanted to see the town. We go topside, and within 30 seconds he is shot to pieces by well meaning archers. They were just defending their town. They didn't know the goblin had surrendered, they only knew that generally when evil walks into town,it is killed, and we applaud that, and no one thinks of that person as evil.

I believe the PVP rules on this server prevent any PC from taking any actionon another PC that would cause an alignment shift. You're more likely to do something to get you banned.

[teefal]

I assume the hover color (blue,green,red) is an indication of the character's demeanor.  IE, if it's red, then the goblin looks damned mad, and looks like he's gonna come after me.  So the disposition does exist, just like a character can look at my health status and say, "You don't look so good."

[Vyris]

Just to pick nits... but if good isn't stupid, then attacking a member of a race that has been consitantly hostile for many thousands of years to EVERY other race it encounters should be smart, and thus, good.

Personally I think the BEST RP for the situation would be for the Drow character to strive to display the qualities that the hostile PC's will find desireable. In this instance I firmly believe that the burden of proof is on the 'victim' and not on the hostile PC.

A single deaad Drow is a victim, a million dead Drow is a well thought out and executed battle strategy.

Bottom line for me is if you want to be easily accepted into society why did you pick a race that MOST pc's have at least acute distrust for, I would imagine half the fun of playing a Drow is the strife and the challenge to become accepted by the surface dwellers. (So you can stick the knife in thier backs at the dramatically appropriate time)

Forget about hover color and the AI factions for hostility for a moment. I happen to like Pit Bulls, my neighbor is terrified of them because of all the bad press they get. He would be far more likely to chuck a rock at a pitbull than to walk up and want to pet it, despite the fact that the dog in question may very well be docile and friendly.


Vyris

[MorphlingROR]

teefal - 7/16/2005  9:07 AM

I assume the hover color (blue,green,red) is an indication of the character's demeanor.  IE, if it's red, then the goblin looks damned mad, and looks like he's gonna come after me.  So the disposition does exist, just like a character can look at my health status and say, "You don't look so good."

In my humble opinion, the color indicator is nothing more than a game mechanic introduced to make things easier. Not every red creature will automatically try to attack and kill you. Take deer for example. They are set to hostile faction just so that it would be easier for people who hunt them, however they do not attack first nor "look mad."

[Thunder Pants]

as for the atacking a drow is not the same as attacking a goblin or similar monster........how are the drow not similar monsters?

secondly, i've heard it said that it's ok to kill goblins because a majority of goblins you've met run at you and try to seperate your head from your shoulders, well remember that some characters have met with many a drow that is not a PC, as i mentioned before, Lue has seen hundreds of drow that have tried to kill her, now thats hundreds of them, with a fairly large group that has been trailing her for 2 years (game time and actually probobly a lot more then that)and has killed her a few times, she has the scars to prove it.......

and she has met maybe 15 friendly drow........quite honestly the ratio of drow that want her head on a stick and drow that don't is enough that she doesn't like any drow, any drow being nice to her is mearly trying to lure her into a false sense of secutrity to stab her in the back after all

people need to realise that the adventuring population of drow is a very very very small percentage of them, and almost all of the nonadventuring drow are evil, vile, murderous beings, that love to inflict torture, take slaves, and are all around not nice, this is not the kind of race that you wait to see if they are good or bad first

if you locate a couger in your yard, you don't walk up and try and pet it to see if it's friendly, either you scare it off, or you keep your distence

[MorphlingROR]

On another note I have seen this same topic about drow come out on about every world I have played (and more than once on each of them) on and the arguments are always the same.

Personally I believe that a hatred for drow is something perfectly normal and actually is a part of their penalty for gaining much better stats. If a player picks this race, they should expect their character to be treated accordingly.