Arcane Archer ideas

[aragwen]

I am posting this after I saw a post made by Talan regarding arcane archer abilities. As Talan stated it would probably not happen as it is not needed, but alas I would add some of my own fantasy surrounding the class.
  [SIZE=13]"seeker arrows.. well, they really suck"[/SIZE]
  Having gained this ability myself recently, I have to agree 100%. The only good thing about this arrow is that it looks funny when shooting it. I have some ideas to perhaps improve this ability.
[INDENT]  - Idea 1: Make seeker arrows not only give you a guarenteed hit, but make that hit inflict critical damage. That is justified by the fact that this arrow can seek out a certain part of the target's body and inflict maximum damage, i.e. a hit to the eye or neck - Idea 2: Make seeker arrows inflict penalties similiar to what called shots do. The penalty could perhaps be slighty more than what you get with called shots (-3 perhaps) and perhaps the will save would have to be better than with called shots. Once again justification for this is based on the fact that the arrow can seek out a particular target area.
[/INDENT] Hail of arrows - cannot really comment as I have not used this ability yet, but will give it some thought.
The last thing is that an arcane archer is not only a deadly bow user but also uses his arcane abilities with shooting arrows. This arcane ability is in my opinion not well represented in the class. The only ability that shows his arcane abilities is the fire embued arrow. When you use that people go wow.....how did you do that. So the question is how do one make the class represent his arcane abilities better? Talan hinted at the answer as well.
[SIZE=13]"elemental arrows of different types"[/SIZE]
I think this is a great idea that would not really be overpowering as elemental arrows can allready be used ingame by adding elemental damage rods to arrows. My suggestion would be that elemental arrows could be crafted, but that these arrows would be limited to arcane archers for use. Therefore the arrows not be made in bulk and abused by people.
My suggestion is that these arrows can be crafted on the flecth as follow:
[INDENT]- fire arrows: using memorised flare spell - cold arrows: using memorised ray of frost spell - electric arrows: using memorised electric jolt spell - acid arrows: using memorised acid splash spell
[/INDENT]The recipe would be as follow:
[INDENT]- you place a pile of arrows (99) on the flecth and then use a number of spells between 1 and 4 - one spell would give +1 elemtal damage - two spells would give 1d4 elemental damage - three spells would give 1d6 elemental damage - four spells would give 1d8 elemental damage - perhaps some other component should be added to give the visual affect as well (not sure??)
[/INDENT]These crafted arrows could then only be used by arcane archers.
Any comments or ideas?
Sorry Blonde was busy rewording my post when you replied.

[blonde]

Well put.

[aragwen]

One more comment to make the arrows slight more difficult to obtain the follow could be adapted.
  When you want to craft arrows you must use a particular wood:
[INDENT]  - hickory arrows +1 damage (type depends on the spell) - oak arrows 1d4 - mahogany 1d6 - yew 1d8
[/INDENT]What I forgot to mention as well earlier is that these arrows will not have any other damage on them except the elemental damage.

[White Arrow]

Here goes on Arcane Archers from my experience on other servers, and yes its one of my favorite builds.

First of all, the Seeker Arrow, is kind of useless for the most part. The only time Ive used it is just to see how bad it is. It is absolutely worthless.

Second, Hail of Arrows, well by the time you get it, it also is worthless, unless you simply want to attract all the nearby monster to attack you. But yes,useless.

Third, Arrow of Death, This is the most pathetic of them all. Never once out of the dozen or so times Ive tryed is has it ever done anything. the save is always made, your better off just shooting your normal 5 arrows per round as you will do more damage. Same goes with Hail of arrows and Seeker arrows, your better off never using them.


Now Imbue arrows. It is kind of a toss up, its useful for a few levels after you get it, then it looses it usefulness.

Now after all of this one may ask, then why do you like Arcane Archers? Well, the Enchant arrow isnt bad, +5 arrow at 9th level of AA. This is useable on low magic servers, however if one was playing on one of the many Monty Haul servers, then forget it.

Most of all Arcane Archers can be fun to play, but most builds pretty well require that you dont solo.  


What would I suggest be done for Arcane Archers?  Give them a bow with unlimited ammo, so they dont cause server lag because of the 10000 arrows they have to carry with them all the time.  Forget giving them magic arrows, as they always autoload and are never there when you need them, Only positive solution for that is a bow of unlminted ammo, and if they want to shoot magic arrows they can swich to a bow that doesnt shoot unlimited arrows thus allowing them to use the magic arrows.

As to other bonuses, as suggested above? while they may be nice a AA can live without them, as Arcane archers can be plenty deadly without them  

[Talan Va'lash]

Well, I'm gonna start by saying that:  AA's aren't underpowered heh.  My only lament about the class is the same as Jacchri (aragwen's.)  That its not... Arcane enough.  

This is in the NWN implementation of them I am discussing.  The PnP AA has TONS of fun, cool, creative, and "magic usery" options available.  However, implementing some of the abilities (like phase arrow, which is what they should gain at 6th level rather than another seeker, an arrow that can pass through physical barriers like.. walls, tree's it ignores all cover etc) is impossible in NWN since well, there is no cover and the way the perception/targeting system works there would be no way to target such an arrow.

also the PnP imbue ability allows you to imbue an arrow 3/day with ANY AoE spell that you can cast.  That... is cool.  Thats about all I can say about it.  It also gives a return for taking more wizard levels (as in the NWN implementaion theres no "build" reason to take more than one wizard or sorc lvl, except for some things that are usefull around lvl 9-13 but become fairly negligable at higher levels.)  Also, the saves for said imbued spells are the SAME saves you would get as if you were casting them as a wizard (I think.. I acctually just checked the book and it doesnt mention how to calculate saves at all.)  If my guess about save DC's is correct then the NWN imbue is far more limited, but more powerfull since the ref save DC is 10+AAlvl+DexMod.  Which means the save DC will acctually be relevant to the creatures you are fighting at your level.

Er.. I've started to ramble already.. this is bad.. the post is yet young. hehehe

So.  What I've always wanted in the NWN AA is, well, flashyness.  Its a flashy class thats.. surprisingly lacking in flash.

The thing about the elemental arrows for AA's is that they should NOT have ANYTHING to do with CNR.  At all.  An AA is not a fletcher (well, not necissarily.  Its not important to the class.)   An AA is an archer who casts magic on his arrows AS he fires them.

Implementing a decent system for these elemental arrows under the constraint that they NOT be CNR, have x uses per day, and not be so abusable they're silly would be a pain.  Or at least it would for me to do it.  I'm sure Orth could to it, but, as I am well aware and have stated, this isnt really a class that needs more stuff and there are plenty of other class/spell tweaks that I'm sure have a much higher priority.

It would have to be like this:

You get either a 1/day special ability or a symbolic inventory item upon reaching the pertinent level.  That item or ability, when used will create X (probably 5-20) arrows with said qualities and place them in your inventory.  

That would be easy.  But again, so exploitable its silly.  I could use the ability and then sell the arrows, so they have to be non-transferable.  Ok, I could sit at the campfire in hlint, create the arrows, rest, create then, rest, and so on ad infinitum.  This is the exploit I wouldnt know how to fix.  You would have to lose the arrows on rest.  acctually that might not be that hard, just have it remove all items with x tag from the players inventory on rest.

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Seeker arrow Idea 1 - I agree with this.  But you could make this arrow do 5x dmg and it wouldnt be as laughable as it is now, but it still wouldnt be in my regular repetoir.  This arrows inherent weakness is due to the way bioware had to implement the enhancement bonus since its a ranged touch attack (which is misleading since it cant miss).  They do 1d8+mighty(i think)+enchant arrow dmg.  EXCEPT they do 1d8+mighty piercing dmg, THEN enchant arrow dmg as magical dmg.  so, in my case 1d8+3 piercing dmg, then 5 magical dmg in the same way darkfire deals its fire dmg seperately.  This is just a delayed dmg trigger, and as such has no enchantment bonus.  Anything with even X/+1 DR will reduce the piercing dmg (in a lot of cases reduce it to 0) and take only 5 magical dmg.  Pretty much every time I use this, its when I just feel like I should do something against x creature that has ridiculous DR that I cant dmg so... I get to do 5 magical dmg... twice.  So even if it does 3d8+9 (crit x3) and 15 magical, that pretty much translates to 15 magical dmg for anything that is difficult enough to hit to warrant sacrificing all other attacks in a round to get a guaranteed hit.  So, even better just make the whole durned thing 1d8+3+5 magical damage.  the absolute precision of the strike allows it to ignore all DR (it already ignores concealment.. obviously heh)  That might sound powerfull, ignoring all DR.. but, MAXIMIZED thats 16 dmg free dmg 2/day by sacrifing all other attacks in the round, so yeah, its really not.  But this discussion is rather moot because these simply wont be powerfull unless you make them basically a large amount of free damage... which.. well, its not a large amount of free damage that an AA needs really.

Hail of arrows - this is weak for the same ranged touch attack DR reason discussed above.  I do 5-16 dmg to 9 targets, and only ever more than 5 to creatures that have less than 11/+1 dr.

----

After just explaining that they totally suck in practice, I wouldnt give these abilities up for anything.  They are Talan and I have a lot of RP built up about how he does them, and what he uses them for.  Think... persude skill.  Doesn't do jack in the regular game, but in skilled hands in a DMed situation can work wonders.  Thats all I'm gonna say, go brainstorm Jacc.

----

I really like the elemental arrows idea, limited supply per day, and maybe the ice ones do the frost trap effects on a failed save at a dc set the same as imbue.  Frost trap effect is basically an x rnd slow and you flash blue for a bit.

Fire ones would be the lowest lvl ones and wouldnt do anything other than a bit of extra dmg,

Acid could do the acid trap thing, sonic the sonic trap, theres way more cool options than would acctually be used.

Basically, my intent with this idea is give the AA something to do in combat other than just sit there while the character pelts arrows on screen at whatever hes killing.

And, you CAN get really good at arrow management and shoot a few of these, a few of these (got good at this while fighting combinations of outsiders, constructs, and undead on L's quests using adamantium, iron, and silver arrows.)  Tip #1, get all that JUNK off the first screen of your inventory.  you know, you can probably throw it away.  I am a habitual pack rat IG... I had... like 1 of every copper and platinum ring on the first page of my inventory.  why?  I have no idea... quick access to +2 saves vs poision maybe? hehe

----

In conclustion, I really hope the arrow of death isnt implemented as per the PnP description of a flat DC of 20.  That is utterly useless at the level you get it even if you do the quickest (non-layo-allowed) build possible, 6ftr/1wiz/10AA you get it at 17.

My sorc could have taken phantasmal killer at lvl 8, his save DC would have been 20 and he has no illusion spell focus.  with his focus he casts 2nd lvl spells at DC 20 and 4th lvls at DC 22.  At lvl 8 and 9.

If the DC on Arrow of Death is really a flat 20, then it's gonna fall into the same category of hail of arrows "Abilities to use when you want to look cool while killing really easy stuff."  Especially for a 1/day thing, the save should be higher and progressive.  If its something I'm able to fire off 5 of per round, there should be a low chance of it affecting the target (i.e. onhit arrows and weapons) however, a 1/day needs to have a decent chance of affecting the target.

----

This might be my most important point yet, but, you know, I'd be happy, completely and utterly happy with the class if the following minor mod that has absolutely no impact on power or balance whatsoever was put in.

when enchant arrow II is gained all arrows fired (barring seeker arrows and stuff that uses weird vfx) have the ghostly visage vfx applied to them (the blue glow.)

when enchant arrow V is gained all arrows fired have the ethereal visage vfx applied to them (purple glow).

I just realized (I'd mentioned this same idea before AGES ago) that I don't really care to increase really.. anything this class does number wise, what feels lacking is, well, flash.  this explains so many things!  Like my recent urgings to play a spellsword or a druid.  A class whos stuff looks cool when they do them.  Oh yeah, and I'm playing a sorc now lol.  you see, all this has stemmed from my surpressed desire for glowy arrows.

If glowy arrows arent implemented I will develop a complex and be subject to endless hours of freudian analysis.  Please!  Save me from this fate!  All I need is glowy arrows!

...

......  

See.. I'm becoming more like The Inspector with each passing moment.  

By the level of weirdness I'm emitting in this post I can tell I need to stop tying and go outside.  where theres air and grass and no keyboards.

I hope I come back and edit this post later to tone down the obvious level of sleep deprivationness


-Clement R. Straightjacket

[Doc-Holiday]

.... SHHHHH!..... The happy chair is angry

.... It bites me in the white room....

.... *wispers* they come from the pillow house...

...  they have snakes in their hands...

...  Purple means V...... purple means V... purple.. means... v....

*thud*

[Gulnyr]

Seriously, Doc, no more than half a vial of crack a day from now on.  You need to cut back, man.

You're freaking me out.

[Doc-Holiday]

*sob* I love you man... *hugs*

[vitor]

A boring day, nothing to do, then... i gone to search page... and searched for Arcane Archer, then i found this post, and justloved it=D
  Well, the glowy arrows ideaby TV is so nice, makes it look more... eh... magical.
  Aswell, why the melee fighters can have their own Swords (axes, or whatever they want) enhanced with fire, cold and such, and we... archers can't have our arrows flaming everytime perhaps? >:/
  Like... the wizard's get a tome of teleportation, why don't the Arcane Archer's perhaps get an arrow enchanting tool? with unlimited uses to add like +2 elemental damage and visual effect for arrows. It's a thing that could exist, to make things better. Like, let's call it Arcane Archer's Truth, base item: misc. small, undroppable, unlimited uses day (can only be used on arrows, if used on an weapon perhaps destroys it, so, you'll not enchant your friend's weapon =P): Adds +2 Elemental Damage to the Arrow stack. As requirement: 4 lvls as AA? or 2, 3? dunno. I think it's a good idea.
  Aboutthecrappy abilities, like Arrow of Death... the DC is low, could be like the imbued arrow's DC, 10 + AA lvl + Dex mod (would make it better then 20)
  The seeker arrow's idea by Aragwen is AWESOME, they really bad, just fun to see then circling the enemy and poof... it could be something like, causes an attack with an automatic 20 as roll, or = it'll hit, and will make a crit, meaning the damage will be by your skill =)
  About the hail of Arrows... Perhaps it shouldhit a single target, and shot2 arrows/ AA lvl, would be so good, if you think it's overpower... think about it: awizard casting a maximized Isaac's GreaterMissile Storm.... 12 damage/ missile, and are LOTS of 'em... that results in more than 200 damage. Well, the wizard can cast 9th lvl spells at 18, but you can only get hail of arrows at 8th lvl of AA, meaning you should be like lvl 18 character to get it, and aswell, it's once, not as the maximized [...] storm.

[Hellblazer]

As a first level arcane archer i didnt get to see the potential else than going on the solo version of the game.
  Hail of arrows is not so useless if you dont want to waste time in a area of minuscule things you dont want to waste time dealing with. IE going to get salt or copper/ tin. That would deal with the goblings and kobolds without a fuss.
  What would be very good I think and not over powering at all if properly configured, would be to have a craftable bow that would be usable only by arcane archers that would automaticaly give an elemantal enchantment to the arrows it fires. The arrows woudl be given a proper damage proportionate to the type of wood used, and would be equivalent to the permanent enchantment that you can get on all other weapons.
  A way to do this, would be to have the bow string enchanted with a specefic enchantment, cold-fire-sonic-acid. Then making the special bow with that bow string.
  Again the type of wood for the bow would not be important, as long as it it starting with Oak or Mahog,as I think it would balance the weapons spread out that can be wield. Giving it the usual dmg factor to that type of wood. The biggest thing would actualy be that it could be only usuable by arcane archers.  
  There is already some bow only usable by elf or Ranger, why not do this to give something special to the AA?

[Lalaith Va'lash]

The biggest thing would actualy be that it could be only usuable by arcane archers.
  There is already some bow only usable by elf or Ranger, why not do this to give something special to the AA?

 Unless it is scripted, a bow with the property "useable only by Archane Archer" would also be useable by any with UMD (Rouges, Bards...)
  In addition to that (this thread is over a year old;) )thereis somthing similiar to this in game.
  Quoting from this thread: Link.
 

Dorganath - 12/2/2006 5:34 PM ...and on the arrow thing, someone went through a WLDQ to get that ability. While it may not be unbalancing, it would kind of negate what people work so hard to get.

  LV

[vitor]

Well, i guess, "everyone" can hold a bow, and shot arrows, AA do it too... so? there's nothing special? yes there is but... Their abilities could be better... A thing i would really love to see could be a wand that adds elemental damage to arrows, as i mentioned before. At this point, Melee's life is much more favored than ours (archers).
  Some may say i can have the arrows enhanced with rods, yes i can, but a stack is nothing, as a thousand arrows can be shoted "easily" by an archer. And that's a huge disvantage, comparing to melee's.
  (and from what i'd checked for Aragwen's first post here, this is not even an year old, it's over 3 months )

[Lalaith Va'lash]

vitor - 2/21/2007 7:14 PM
  (and from what i'd checked for Aragwen's first post here, this is not even an year old, it's over 3 months )
 

 "Posted 11/3/2005 9:42 AM" - Today is 2/20/2007
  A year and 3 months. *winks*
 

[vitor]

Well... =P i hate new year, i always think im on the last one lol, but that's not the question here

[darkstorme]

vitor - 2/21/2007  7:14 PM



 Well, i guess, "everyone" can hold a bow, and shot arrows, AA do it too... so? there's nothing special? yes there is but... Their abilities could be better... A thing i would really love to see could be a wand that adds elemental damage to arrows, as i mentioned before.

The problem I can see with this is there's no way to make the arrows LOSE their enchantment upon leaving your hands.  Ergo, if you had an "arrow enchanting" wand, the possibilities for abuse would be huge.  So while it might be nice to improve the PrC... a wand that applies a permanent enchantment to arrows would be impractical... and one that applies a temporary enhancement would not be easy to use right before combat most of the time.  *shrugs*  I think it's dependant on whether the design teams wants to add something like that, but I believe it would be unbalancing.

[gilshem ironstone]

I'm with Talan... On A DM quest what could be better than a seeker arrow?  So many RP possibilities... I had Talan win I think 3,000 gold off a character with a seeker arrow... Lets see Imp. Knockdown do that!

[vitor]

 Well, i had an idea, about the arrow enhanting item, as people could abuse of it, create some plain arrows, with the property only useable by: Arcane Archer. Then, it would have a different tag from normal arrows, so, make the enchanting item only work on these arrows, adding the damage and effect to them...

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Pyyran would love to see those. He's got ranks in Use Magic Device, which lets him bypass the "Only Usable By:" tags.

[Hellblazer]

To be back ont eh rogue thing, there is bow that are usuable by elf or ranger only.. so yes they are coded as that. Also there is the mention of imbalance( the link provided by Lai'lath). I f you take a person ( rain ) that uses only a bow as a weapon, I find it rather unbalancing  that the people who wields weapons can have permanent enchantment while the archers need to pay hefty sums of money to get their arrows enchanted, every time they empty a quill. Now of course this will brings up the why then why does only arcane archer could use them. so opening up to those who uses arcane ( aa, wiz, sorc) could use the special bow. But then again, I only see a few othe wizard, sorceror using bows so it might not be as valuable for them as it would be to a heavy dependent bow users as the AA are.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

Hellblazer - 2/22/2007 3:06 AM To be back ont eh rogue thing, there is bow that are usuable by elf or ranger only.. so yes they are coded as that.

 Huh? Which bow are you referring to? Yes, there are some bows with elf only (flight of fancy's) or ranger only (Bows of the hunter I believe) but UMD overrides these "requirements". So, ahuman rogue could use the first, or, my non-ranger bard/rogue could (and does )use the second. I'm only saying that applying a nwn standard "Only useable by: AA" to a weapon, you need to consider bards and rogues in the mix, because UMD would allow them to use it.
 

Now of course this will brings up the why then why does only arcane archer could use them. so opening up to those who uses arcane ( aa, wiz, sorc) could use the special bow.

 **Discalimer** I could be wrong, and this is my opinion only **disclaimer**
  But, I really doubt that a bow that shoots elemental arrows would be added to the game. 3 reasons: 1. AA's are really anything but underpowererd (but lets not open up that can of worms eh?). 2. Currently in order to apply that affect to a bow using standard nwn scripts, the arrows would need to be unlimited. 3. As I stated before, sombody went through a WLDQ andachieved somthing similartowhat you are describing, so as Dorg said about a somthing similar,this wouldnegate what people work so hard to get. and 4.(okay, so one more reason) The UMD thing. (As Pyyran said, Lal would love to get her hands on that bow too)
  Anyway. Discussing can be fun.. *waves her hand dismissively* carry on then. I'll go back to my own little world
 
 
  Edited: because I can't spell in the morning