Changing exp yields from crafting

[Harloff]

In view of the latest update making crafting more time consuming due to the lower number of items that can be crafted per batch and the generally higher difficulty due to the removal of recipes with high exp to resources ratio (I noticed that the spell components were removed from tinkering, I couldn't find them at least. don't know if other changes have been implemented). This means that new crafters don't have the benefits the rest of us had when we started crafting and gaining higher level has in any case become harder. However layonara economy is dependent on the existence of low mid and high level crafters, low level crafters to supply low level characters mid level to supply mid and so on. Therefore I suggest that crafting should yield more adventuring exp. perhaps 2, 3 or 4 times as much adventuring exp as it does today. Thus encouraging people to start crafting.

Besides that I would suggest that crafting trivial things generates 1 exp both crafting and adventuring, similar to the 1 exp one gets for killing a trivial/effortless monsters. which would give you just a little bit for your efforts. If this can't be implemented i would suggest that each time crafting is successful you gain 1 exp.

These changes would ensure that new crafters would have a benefit the rest of us hadn't it will take longer for them to reach high levels but they will get more adventuring exp thus balancing the changes.

[Pibemanden]

The only place where I see this problem is in tinkering. All the other crafts seem to be easy enough to master but tinkering. Right now I am level 6 crafting glas ignots is almost trivial(95%) and the only thing I can make that my character would find any use for is rods. It will be very hard but doable to level in this craft, the only thing is that I just don't have any use for the 20 rod I I'll get from leveling.

[Dorganath]

You are correct that spell components were removed from tinkering in the last big update.  This is by design as these items were being exploited, abused and bulk-crafted in a widespread manner because of their high "XP to resources" ratio, as you put it. 
  In my personal opinion, there's no real reason to give back an "advantage" that the rest of us had because of a set of recipes that allowed some crafters to rise rapidly because of their dispropotionate rewards.  I also see no real reason to increase XP because people can no longer craft 10, 20, 30 or more of one item at a time.  Both of these things can and were abused by crafters in order to rise rapidly in a given craft, and as such making things as easy as they were before makes absolutely no sense.  It also doesn't make sense to me to give 1XP for crafting trivial items. It's like getting XP for tying one's shoe as an adult.  It would make minimal impact, if any, and certainly does not seem worth the coding effort to implement.  Though that I only my opinion.
  I will tell you all that an increase in XP for crafting was considered, implemented and tested, however it came in conjunction with requiring a small amount of GPs for each item attempted.  Gold charged was proportional to the crafting level of the item, so high-level items cost more to craft than low-level items. The result was that crafting did progress at a faster rate. Taken as a whole the net result was that crafting still progressed and it took fewer resources to do so, fewer crafted items were introduced into the marketplace and gold was removed from the economy (one of our primary goals). However, this system was judged to be too harsh of a change at this time, and things were reset to their original recipes and rewards.
  Be aware though, that all the code and database entries remain in place to establish this very thing at any time across the whole system or on a recipe-by-recipe basis.  We're trying to fix some things that are broken, and while the crafting system is a big positive thing for the world, it is also the source of many problems as well.  It's a delicate balancing act, and one that sometimes requires some difficult decisions.  In any case, an increase in XP for crafting is unlikely without also requiring gold for each recipe.
  Since the patch a couple days ago, all the constants that govern CNR deposits/spawns have been reset to pre-update levels in all but a few cases.  This covers tool breakage, chance of CNR being returned, chance of spawn breakage, etc.  Besides not being able to craft in large bunches, there should really be no complaints about the state of the CNR system right now, as it's largely how it was. 
  If you're finding the lack of batch crafting to be inconvenient, annoying or otherwise negative, well, we're sorry, but it's necessary.
  Without accusing anyone in particular of wrong-doing, if crafters would not have abused and exploited certain aspects of the CNR system, then these changes would not have been necessary.

[Harloff]

I agree and I must admit that i have made hundreds of prayer beads and thrown them all away similarly to what I have done with all the other spell components. I didn't see this as an exploit just as a way to practice crafting, similar to the hundreds of iron daggers I have made, also because of the high exp to resource ratio. If this is considered to be exploits I am guilty of this offence but did know that the team saw it as exploits. however i have never crafted these in larger number than 3-4 per try simply because I didn't want to risk throwing a whole cargo away. But yes I have used these items in order to rice in crafter level I could have produced other things and thrown them away too but I saw no point in producing something very exspensive and throwing it away contra producing something cheap and throwing that away. I am not saying that these recipies should be returned what I stated was that I had noticed that they had been removed, and that this would slow the leveling up down. Besides that I can say that I knew why they had been removed as soon as i saw that they were gone. I Generally I admit that my most important tool when i craft is my calculator, I prefer to have orders to fill but when I haven't and only craft in order to practice, then I craft as efficient as possible. Perhaps a job related difunction of sorts being an engineer. Even my girlfriend complains over my attempts trying to make things more efficient all the time.

However, my suggestion was not more crafting exp. but more adventuring exp. I don't know how this is coded, so I don't know how they are linked together. but my thought was that when you gain 10 crafting exp you would get 20 or more adventuring exp. Thus this would not alter how fast people get up in crafting level only how fast they proceed in their character level.

Furthermore, I admit I was annoyed the other day and complained, but this is meant as a suggestion not a complaint. The system can work and does work without it, as you stated the economy of layo is delicate, I know that and this was the only reason i made this suggestion, I won't even have that much advantage from it myself. What I fear is that people wont be starting as crafters, I might be wrong and many people might start crafting in the furture as well. But if it assumed that they do, the number of crafters will drop over time, since people leave layo and crafters are mortal as well as all others. This will damage the economy greatly since the value on crafted items will increase inflation will come and... You know what I am aiming at. This is of course a worst case scenario, and my assumption might be completely wrong.

With respect to the gold for crafting scheme. For obvious reasons I don't know how it worked, but I don't think it will damage me very much I think that Skarp would be one of the crafters benifitting from such a scheme having a good bank account and all. However this can be a problem for new players and players with low bank accounts in general. Thus for Skarp I cannot say that I have an objection against the system, but I fear that it might have long term effects on the number of crafters and on the economy.

Again I would like to stress that this should not be seen as complaints in any way but suggestions that I come up with in order to improve layo or avoid future problems. And I apologize for my rants the other day, I am just a simple barbarian like Skarp and I am known for my bad temper.

[goldz8]

I don’t agree that low-level characters get enough XP from crafting. Getting 7 XP points for cutting a piece of mineral greenstone does not compare well with the experience obtained for destroying a skeleton at level one. It’s far easier to destroy the skeleton than it is to get the greenstone. Just walk into the crypts in Hlint and there they are. To get greenstone you have to get past the goblins and hope you don’t break more than two or three chisels to get a couple of pieces. Then you’ve still got at least a 30% chance to cut it. Consider the effort involved.

Maybe crafts should be restricted to classes and races? Would an elf craft gems when deep gnomes are known to produce beautiful jewels? Wouldn’t elves be more inclined to make magical items? The same goes for metal work – dwarves are known to be masters in that field. Humans of course get their fingers in everything, but considering the differences in life spans can a human really be a master in a certain craft in the same way that say a dwarf can? Dwarves simply have more time in their lives to become really good at making things than humans.

[Talan Va'lash]

@Goldz8 - of course you get more xp adventuring than you do craft xp at any given level.  Attaining lvl 2 of a craft requires 200xp.  Attaining character level 2 takes 5000 xp.  The two can't be compared at all as they are completely different.  Also more "finished products" give more xp for the same difficulty than begining or intermediary steps.  You'll find that polishing that greenstone you just cut will yield 2x the xp.

Additionally, crafting will not be limited by race or class on a scale any larger than it is right now.  L has said this before, and I agree that it would be rather arbitrary and take far more fun out of crafting than any of the changes that have been considered.

-TV

[FlameStrike]

goldz8 - 1/11/2006  8:50 AM

 It’s far easier to destroy the skeleton than it is to get the greenstone. Just walk into the crypts in Hlint and there they are.

 Thing is... the skeleton or whatever monster you will be facing can kill you, but the gemstones can't, unless you trip on a greenstone and fall on your gemcrafter chisel, stabbing yourself.

 Crafting is just that, an excellent break from the norm that grants you experience, but nothing compared to a battle-hardened mage or warrior, that spent countless hours fighting and dying, learning far more from their mistakes than a regular crafter.

[Dorganath]

*Points up*
  XP from crafting isn't intended to give a significant boost to one's adventuring XP.  Afterall, it wouldn't be right if someone gained levels as a fighter by doing nothing but....cooking, for example. *chuckles a moment*
  Crafting obviously has a separate XP/Level system, and the two aren't really related.  I'd even say that as a low-level character, crafting has a much greater impact on adventuring XP than it does for high-level characters. I think my main character's total crafting XP is about 0.5% of his adventuring XP. The 144 XP he gets for making a couple Cure Serious potions hardly amounts to any more than a blip on the overall adventuring XP picture.

[goldz8]

As much as we love the crafting system - it is to blame for the economic problems that've been mentioned in other threads. I'm just trying to think of possible solutions.

Something that causes problems isn't working properly and must be fixed. That's the way I see it at least.

[Wintersheart]

goldz8 - 1/11/2006  3:46 PM
As much as we love the crafting system - it is to blame for the economic problems that've been mentioned in other threads.

I disagree on that point. It’s not the crafting system that is to blame for economic problems it is irresponsible player behaviour. Any system we set up can be exploited and the only alternatives to responsible players are further restrictions/rules and constant policing. Quite frankly that would ruin my enjoyment both as a player and GM.

Also the new crafting changes have only recently been introduced. Let us give them some time to see the effect.

[Leanthar]

"...I don’t agree that low-level characters get enough XP from crafting. Getting 7 XP points for cutting a piece of mineral greenstone does not compare well with the experience obtained for destroying a skeleton at level one. It’s far easier to destroy the skeleton than it is to get the greenstone..."
  You are correct, they do not compare well at all. However, the XP chart for character levels and crafting levels are vastly different. A level 20 character takes 5,760,000 but a level 20 crater is millions and millions less than that. I don't remember the crafting xp chart off hand but I am not so sure you even need a million for a level 20 crafter. And the same goes for xp at level 5 adventuring and level 5 crafting, they are not the same amount.

[goldz8]

Okay please help me to understand what the problem is then.

Thanks, I understand now why the XP of the crafting system is different to the adventuring one.

But I'm still confused about some things.

What is wrong with the economy and why is it like that?

It was said that irresponsible people are exploiting things, but how are they doing that and how can the changes implemented prevent that from happening?

[FlameStrike]

Massproducing, and selling items for very low prices is one of the problems.

 Also, on a sidenote, having a crafting system is WAY better than on other modules, for the simple fact that you don't have to buy certain types of items always from the same person (NPC's), for the same prices, and thus making this a boring routine.

 In short, even if you have the gold, you'll have to find the seller, making things a lot more interesting and challenging, and addicting.

[Talan Va'lash]

Selling things too low hurts the economy for one.  That and the accompanying possible flood of items is indeed a problem caused by CNR.

However, another problem is a surplus of gold.  This is a problem that I have seen on several PWs as they begin to mature (have been running for a year plus.)  Layo has been running for over two years I think and over a year in V2.  

Even on servers without crafting, it is very difficult to NOT end up with huge inflation and other economic problems after a year plus of running.  So, I really expect us to be having this problem.  Not that I think that is an excuse to not try to find a solution, I am just mentioning it so that those who do not have experience with other PWs will know that this is not a problem unique to layo, or caused wholely by anything specific to the way layo is set up.

However, with CNR we have the somewhat unique and paradoxal issues of, at the same time characters have more gold (the inflation issue that occurs as a PW is running over a long period, since the characters have been around for longer and become high level) we also have crafting, which allows, in essence an infinite number of items to be produced, limited only by the resources available and their respawn times.  Logically, large supply+small demand->lower prices.... but... more gold overall in the economy->higher prices as each coin becomes less valuable.

So, we have two forces SIMULTANEOUSLY saying prices should be low, and that prices should be high.

Ex. I KNOW there are tons of people that can pay me full price or more for a bow I'm selling, so I want to set my price high.  buuut... I just made 15 bows that I want to sell... so I want to set my price low to sell them all.

Solution: Sell 13 of the bows to the pawn and charge full price for the two I am going to sell.  

2 reasons for this solution -

1.) This solution helps the economy (at least doesn't harm it further) it lets prices map to where the amount of gold in the economy says they should be, while at the same time doesn't continue to flood the market with cheap items, which just makes it even harder for crafters to find buyers for their items who are willing to pay full price.

2.) Frankly, unlike in the real world where the pool of potential buyers is very large, the pool of people who would even be interested in said bow even if it was free is much smaller in Layonara, especially online at any given time.  There's no way I would be able to sell 15 Mahogany longbows in one day even if I only charged 5000 gold for them (1/3 of the price I would start bargaining from, 5000 for this bow is ridiculously low.)  There just aren't enough people who want any given item to sell that many at any price.  Cut your stock, don't feel like you have to sell everything you make And definitely don't feel like you have to sell it in 1 or 2 days.  Rent a room (and storage) at the leilon arms and stick it in there.  I have sold dozens and dozens of iron weapons, bronze weapons, oak bows etc. and have done so at a reasonable price (reasonably high to not harm the economy) and back then there were fewer players.  Just have patience.  The right person WILL buy the item that is right for them at the right price.

-TV

[goldz8]

Thank you for explaining it so clearly.

I'm probably going to be very unpopular for suggesting this, but wouldn't it help the economy to have weapons and armour and clothes degrade? In the real world you have to buy new clothes, shoes, cars and umbrellas because things get old and broken.

In Layonara things don't seem to get old and broken. Shouldn't low quality items such as hickory staffs and copper swords degrade faster than high quality items such as yew staffs and mithral armour?

This may increase the number of buyers, especially of the lower quality items. However, such a system would make obtaining high character levels more desirable because of the level requirement for items of excellent quality that don't need replacing as often as lower quality items.

I can't play as often as I'd like anymore because of work commitments so I wouldn't want to log on after a week of not playing to find that my character's sword has rusted. But that's what happens in the real world.

Wasn't there some system in NWN for weapons being damaged and one had to have them repaired? Or am I confusing games here?

Perhaps a system of damage based on time and use would work well?

[Dorganath]

Such a system, in some implementation, has been considered, and may eventually be included. One thing we'd have to account for here in Layo is the fact that some people have very special items, even items that are impossible or extremely unlikely to craft.  Some folks have completely unique items that have been obtained as a result of ECDQs or other extrordinary means.  Such unique items are impossible to replace through crafting.
  So whatever system we'd create would have to allow for the repair and upkeep of such items and would likely not make a weapon break but rather be unusable until repaired.  Otherwise these special items that people worked long and hard for would become show pieces only, and people would carry a supply of "cheap" iron weapons like they carry mining chisels and shovels today....which is kind of absurd.
  But that is definitely a good way to take money out of the economy.

[Talan Va'lash]

A weapon/armor degradation system based on use (not time, so players who have less time to play don't get penalized more than those who play often) has been discussed.

It has not been scripted and no final decision on whether it will be implemented in the future or not has been made.

The system that was worked out in discussion was quite fair, and allowed for item repairs so that an item would never be completely lost unless it was very much abused (and in the system discussed, it would be very obvious when it needed repairs.)

Not sure if this route will be chosen, and if it is any such changes will probably not be put in place for some time, though it will be much easier to try to fix the economy if we have the players working with us to suggest ideas, point out things that are too easy, and above all, work with us to adjust things so that they are appropriate once they are put in.  Some of the reactions to the last big update didn't demonstrate the type of help that players can be giving.

I can attest to the fact that the GM/Project Team isn't trying to make the game not fun anymore.

When the new crafting system (parts of which are in now) was being tested and discussed, in the discussion and testing threads the most common comments I saw when things were being adjusted were: "This is too hard," "This is too much," "this price should be lower" in relation to things that made crafting too hard/expensive/annoying, etc.  Those things were then adjusted.

Really, we do want to fix the things that need to be fixed, and Really, we want everyone's help and support in doing that.

-TV

[goldz8]

Perhaps a special spell could be invented that when cast on an item prevents it from breaking. Or maybe something can be crafted that does this. Make it expensive so that it will only be used on items deemed worth it and not your everyday hickory staff.

Just because something is unique doesn't mean that it should be expempt from being destroyed. In real life one of a kind vases break. Unique samurai swords rust if not looked after.

It should be up to the player to look after their equipment and take note of it's condition.

I made this suggestion so that there can be more of a demand for low level items like iron swords.

[Dorganath]

The system which balanced realism with a lack of frustration was that where the items would not break but degrade.  Repair kits would be available, each with different costs depending on how much repair was needed and what, exactly you were repairing (in terms of materials).
  Unique items granted to Epic characters upon completion of some...well...epic quest are truly unique and extrordinary items, and as such would be far more durable...still prone to wear-and-tear, but they would not be destroyed by a stroke of back luck or a prolonged period of non-repair (say an especially combat-intensive, long-running quest).
  Severely damaged items would be rendered unusable until repaired in at least some degree.  This includes unique/epic items.
  A higher demand for iron weapons doesn't really make sense, since eventually, characters grow out of them...not because they can use better weapons, but because they are fighting tougher creatures.

[Harloff]

I think this is a very good idea, far better than taxes and all other systems that have been suggested. The main reason for this is that most people will find ways to avoid taxes but they will always have to pay to have their equipment repaired. Furthermore, this system will have the effect that high level characters that earn more pay more, similarly with time online. Thus I would really like to see this system implemented, and I believe that most online games use it.