Author Topic: Attention Mages - Melee Fighting (Read 7358 times)

Dorganath · « **Reply #80 on:** February 07, 2006, 05:46:49 AM »

Interesting idea Ar7...and I'd point out thatStoneskin has a very similar progression. This concept makes a lot of sense ina lot of ways.

Leanthar · « **Reply #81 on:** February 07, 2006, 05:48:08 AM »

Thanks for the good post Ar7. I want to point out something you stated that while on the face of things seems to be 100% true and it certainly should be logical..however...

"...But with the problem of abusing I think talking is more important. It is not efficient to simply monitor players' actions for a few months and then afterwards hit the player base with a "We had to change X and Y, because you broke the spirit of the world" As easy at it often sounds, the spirit of the world is a hard thing to determine correctly.

The players who are abusing are known, especially since they level very fast. The DMs who notice this should talk to each player they see overusing some spells. It is the best choice of action, people who are doing wrong will actually know 100% that THEY are the ones doing the wrong thing. I am sure some of the players do not know if the problem is with them, not to mention those that do not read the forums.

The DM team does not have to police the players. A quick two sentence explanation of what a player is doing wrong is enough and it is often the most efficient way to change things. In most cases it should be all that takes to make a player reconsider, but in some exceptional cases a few punishments should apply...."

100% agree, as a matter of fact it was the rule of thumb for a long time. But then the world got so large that even the large team we have could not keep up with everybody. Add on top of that that a good amount of the people before (and perhaps now) where so aggetated and hostile when we spoke to them that it sort of ruined the fun of the world for the GM team (and yes that includes(ed) me). So yes, we must talk to players--but trust me on the fact that fully 60% or more of those that we talk to take things the wrong way and then swamp us with arguments, hostility, and just plain aggrevation that it kills the GM spirits. So really... in order to keep morale going for the GM team we need to do it with code because even after speaking to a few people they continue to do things. And then we have step further in to the arguments, harsness, meanness fromt he player because we have to go to the next step (temporary or permanent bannings) because x, y, z player did not do as we requested. And then during all of this time that player now has their friends involved and flaming on the forums or speaking in channels such as icq, irc, etc. So yes....you are correct, talking should do the trick--sadly it does not very often--and on top of that kills the morale of the gm's and the desire to gm or even play while the player continues to stir the flames in other areas out of our control.

While it could and should work, most of the time it does not and then we get to other very bad issues. Thusly, why we 'nerf' or change things for balancing. It is really a no-win situation for the team--no matter what--but we still have to do something.

blonde · « **Reply #82 on:** February 07, 2006, 06:14:38 AM »

Very good ideas Ar7. Making more spell progressions like it was done with stoneskin makes alot of sense.

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #83 on:** February 07, 2006, 07:28:26 AM »

I agree with Ar7, and sympathize with Leanthar. I have to say, though, that it's discussions like this that make this server, persistent world, community, whatever you want to call it, so excellent. It's this communication between the GM team and the players that keeps the game from grinding to a halt. Sorry for jumping off topic. I just had to say that.

Varnart · « **Reply #84 on:** February 07, 2006, 08:06:58 AM »

Just PLEASE don't worsen Polymorph Self. It's the only way I have to get out of trouble when I'm out of invisibilities, and if the duration gets THAT short I can't survive enough to RUN AWAY. Also, about that thing of getting lots of GP and XP being out of character, that's not necessarily true. For example, take a monk. They're suposed to try to attain perfection through self-betterment and experience. This means more levels. My character Taislin is a follower of Deliar, and the most important things in his life are money and fame, though especially money. It would make sense if I went through Mistone killing all the monsters I found to get their gold!

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #85 on:** February 07, 2006, 08:15:37 AM »

I'd love to comment on that, Varnart, but I would end up getting WAY off topic, so I'll just be quiet...err... sort of...

steverimmer · « **Reply #86 on:** February 07, 2006, 10:22:18 AM »

That was a great post Ar7 and I'd agree with everything you said there about spell progression. Now thats someones actually suggested it makes me wonder why I'd never thought of it before

D Blaze · « **Reply #87 on:** February 07, 2006, 10:46:35 AM »

Ar7 does have a great idea with progressive spells, it does make sense.
With a stoneskin, you first learn how to use it, it isn't all that great, but with time, practice, study and personal magic power, you can make it quite potent within its limited range and nearly perfect (but not quite as good as the greater version obviously).

As many have stated above, a low lvl fighter is the power for it's range, then a mid-high lvl mage rules the land (with a cleric being the combination of the two with healing ability added in), but once Epic is reached, the same mass-effecting spells just don't cut it anymore
(Example: Over this past weekend, a fair sized group ranging in classes and I believe all were at least 17 or higher went into the underdark for reasons not needing to be explained here. We first came upon enemies that were a little difficult for fighters to handle, but 1-2 mages with the right spells could clear the lot in a few seconds, we move on; next we come to enemies that could kill a mage if any two lock onto you regardless of spell buffs, here the fighters were doing the best, we move on; now we come to things that no mage, nor fighter alone could possibly do, it took a combination of support to go further, we move on; and finally, we came to a place where most magic spells were useless unless they added to attack, AC or speed, and the only thing that counted was how many successful physical attacks (that dealt damage) we done by as many attackers as possible (on one enemy in particular, 90% of the damage counters above it's head were 0 and the highest number I think was 11). Even a fully buffed person in Tenser form was having little effect (I think they even said that their weapon was ineffective, and two other fully buffed, Shapechanged people with an incredible AC each died as the battle time went into the 5 minute range, along with most of the rest of our party, and we had a good group too, with good communication and tactics) The whole area and enemies were very cool though.

The point of the above story I am trying to make is that as danger progresses into Epic region, no amount of spells that can be cast at a distance really matter because of how some of the key spells one would want to be cast were altered, so all that matters is melee. And weakening the only true melee spells a mage can resort to is a bad idea (I'm not making a jab at the Staff either, they were just doing what they thought was necessary at the time for the good of all)

A mage can gain levels quite quickly using the few transmutation spells with other magical aid backing it up, equal and better than any fighter up until lvl 20.
The real problem has already been stated before (a single mage with the ability to Polymorph, Tenser, Shapechange, go Invisible, cast a summon, etc...) can gain experience far quicker, and go places few others can in safety.
It's the experience that kinda throws me, a person gains experience from kills to further their knowledge in their class and the world, and hence, gain lvls. A fighter will learn to use their chosen weapon better, a druid will be able to call on greater portions of nature(and eventually become one of four pure versions of it), a cleric will grow more in touch with their deity, and a mage gains experience from constant use of spells and study, but once a mage changes shape (unlike a druid in my opinion), they are no longer using their vast knowledge to analyze an opponent, use spell combinations and find the exact means to defeat them, they are just bashing the heck out of it, that's no way to learn magic, no matter how effective. You are resorting to baser tactics (sorry all fighters), that you really should be above unless the need is necessary.
The Idea was mentioned for an XP penalty whenever a mage makes a kill while shapechanged akin to a summoning XP penalty, I think that is a great idea. Something like only recieving 1/2 xp while in polymorph and drop to 1/3rd while in Tenser, and 1/4th while Shapechanged (by the time you reach near lvl 20, experience from killing just won't matter anymore anyhow). If you have a summon out, it will drop it even further. If a person wants to spend hours and hours soloing in a different form, killing anything and everything they can for experience when they would be having a better time in a party while staying in their native form, then they will have proven they really just don't belong here in Layonara, and it will severely slow a mage down once they gain access to these spells, so they will only use them when the need is great.

There is no need to weaken the spells, just what you learn from using them (the XP reward)

Sorry for the long post, trying to spill my brain while it's still full before off to class again....

blonde · « **Reply #88 on:** February 07, 2006, 10:59:40 AM »

I agree with D Blaze, and others, that if the team finds that they need to make some changes to those spells, a significant xp penalty makes sense. 1/4 across the board for all three transformation spells sounds fair to me. At least i see no reason why they should be different.

EventHorizon · « **Reply #89 on:** February 07, 2006, 11:44:14 AM »

Ar7 and D Blaze, nice posts.

Had this thought of maybe making the strenght of the Weave in different locations shift.
Still early stage thinking but basically had the idea like... if a druid or ranger are walking in the middle of the great forest they likely would feel more at home and be a stronger opponent. Just as staying around in a city might not be their favorite place to be.
If for some reason the weave was stronger in some parts of the world...
Not sure it makes sense here...

Force_of_Will_ · « **Reply #90 on:** February 08, 2006, 04:07:17 PM »

Just an idea on Polymorh type spells.
Make it that the caster and anyone in the party get 0 xps when they are Morphed.

GhostWhoWalks · « **Reply #91 on:** February 08, 2006, 04:27:52 PM »

It's a choice.

A mage can choose to give up spells that kill lots of things at once at range, or they can kill things one at a time in melee.

Mages are powerful.

A transmuter is incredibly powerful at high levels. But then... so is an invoker.

In a 1:1 fight, yes. A mage will destroy a warrior. They kinda should be able to at higher levels.

If a mage is choosing to go down the transmutation path, that's not really a bad thing. They aren't any more powerful than a warrior, the difference is the mage is self buffing. If he used those buffs on the warrior, then the warrior would be the whirlwind of death.

It's a choice. The mage is choosing to give up spells that are AE/Direct damage in exchange he can turn himself into a death machine a few times a day.

In a polymorphed state, mages are unable to cast spells. So they only thing they can do is precast. Which is why we lowered durations back in the day.

It's a rest timer issue to me. Mages are strong because they can rest so often.

That's the balance.

Should add 30 seconds per level to mage/cleric rest timers up to a max of 10 additional minutes.

That would help to balance out the spell selections and bring the mage/warrior power break closer.

muaddib · « **Reply #92 on:** February 08, 2006, 05:07:17 PM »

I been reading this since then start and i dont like mages, dont know much about them, and dont plan to play one but so far the 30 secs per lvl sounds like the best i have understood.

cptoad · « **Reply #93 on:** February 08, 2006, 07:59:41 PM »

i have a fun idea, though it will take a little work for the team. how about nerfing the spell so there is a chance for failure instead not polying into what you wanted.. say 50
% chance to morph into what you want.. and the rest split into say a penguin.. a cow or something else. than it will be at the players risk, and make the spell for a duration of 24 hours game time, reguarless of how many time the spell caster rests.

G

Lalaith Va'lash · « **Reply #94 on:** February 08, 2006, 08:57:14 PM »

Quote

cptoad - 2/8/2006 10:59 PM i have a fun idea, though it will take a little work for the team. how about nerfing the spell so there is a chance for failure instead not polying into what you wanted.. say 50 % chance to morph into what you want.. and the rest split into say a penguin.. a cow or something else. than it will be at the players risk, and make the spell for a duration of 24 hours game time, reguarless of how many time the spell caster rests. G

hehe, I can just imagine the penguins now....

Variable · « **Reply #95 on:** February 08, 2006, 09:02:59 PM »

oooh!! I would cast the spell just hoping to fail and become a penguin!

xXDenizeNXx · « **Reply #96 on:** February 08, 2006, 09:09:39 PM »

I have no idea how to code or program etc, so forgive me if this sounds ignorant but why not just have a simple solution.... while in Tensers or polymorhed they gain no XP. Think about it, how would it further your career as a mage to think like a troll for 2 hours?

Addressing what G-452 said....
It's like how many people used to crawl back from the haven mines etc and then decided 'geee maybe this aint right, i AM afterall only a halfling how the heck could i carry 154 ores?' ok nerf it! and another good one was AFTER everyone got rich on the wood glitch we nerfed it, After everyone harvested supplies with summons or polymorph it was nerfed and once again AFTER everyones already benefited from soloing using Tensers we now decide to nerf it. Kinda makes it a bitter pill for those to swallow that continue to do the right thing but are slaving there butts off at level 8 while others went from 0 - epic in the same amount of time. But don't listen to people wanting to nerf mages thats just silly.
No xp and have the monsters killed drop no items or gold, then why would folks use it except in emergancies or during quests etc?
If they use it at a critical juncture that saves the lives of others etc reward them then.

peace
den

GhostWhoWalks · « **Reply #97 on:** February 08, 2006, 10:41:38 PM »

Well... there's no real reason to deny a person transformed experience. That would be like saying... ok, warriors in plate armor get 10% less xp than someone in chainmail, because you're in more danger in chainmai.

Transformation is one of the many paths a mage can walk. You don't cut it off because it's powerful. You find the what is causing the imbalance and address that.

The real issue with spellcasters in NWN, is the way resting works. In P&P casters have to consider what to cast and when because they need to wait 24 hours before resting. In NWN its a few minutes. Increasing the time for higher level casters to rest won't make them weaker, but it will cause them to consider more before going all out in every encounter.

My cleric, is possibly one of the strongest pure melee characters on the server. I'm not bragging, if you don't belive me, ask around.

What makes him powerful? I can fire my full load of spells every 10 min. Which means usually 2-3 enounters. If that was +10 minutes, then I would have to think more cautiously about what to cast and when. To hold back incase something happens betwen event 1 and event 6.

That's where the weakness of casters are. Is a mage stronger than a warrior when they blow thier spell lists? Sure. But that's it until they can rest again. Same with invokers. If every time an invoker goes into a fight he hastes and throws 30 fireballs, he's gonna kill everything quicker than anyone else. But then he's spent.

It's about moderation, a slight, and 30s/level to the max of 20 (which is when spell progression stops) is slight, increase should help do that. Sure, a mage could become an unstoppable juggernat. But he can't do it again for a while. So a fighter, over a longer period will be a more balanced warrior.

Mages can burst power. Warriors are steady and strong all the time.

That's the difference.

It's lacking in NWN for many reasons. Layonara has improved upon the base NWN engine. Adding level increases for casters will improve it further. It may even fix it finally.

ThrainSil · « **Reply #98 on:** February 08, 2006, 10:55:24 PM »

Are wandering monster encounters in the game? if not can wandering monster encounters be placed in the game?

I ask because that would make the whole solo character business very hard for someone to pull off. If you want to take the risk of resting alone in the wilds with no one standing watch you may get your rest disturbed with no gain and find a pack of nasty things beating you up. Fighters in skivies, spell casters with no spells available etc. I always thought this could happen anyway even when your not sleeping next to a spawn point. Mabey when a character(s) rests there could be a % chance of some wandering creature stumbling on them based on some formula tied to the area they are in.

xXDenizeNXx · « **Reply #99 on:** February 08, 2006, 11:59:17 PM »

i see what ya saying Ghost and agree wholeheartedly. BTW off topic but are you also the ghostwhowlaks on the aussie PCPP forum?