Attention Mages - Melee Fighting

[Guardian 452]

An Epic Ranger cannot Solo 90% of Dregar... why should a 18 or better Caster Class be allowed to?

And a solo Figher class never rules above a caster class past level 8'ish thru level 40.....  NO WARDS for solo fighter. one death spell and your toast unless you like gambling that you will beat the save.


Things are not balanced when it comes to Solo vs. Solo and they never will. *shrug*

But I applaud the team for doing all they are to help!!!!

[Talan Va'lash]

Ah, thanks Frendh, that made it a bit clearer.  I guess I just don't think in those terms... Would a once per rest limit on casting tensors be appropriate then?  It seems like the main issue would be meming many of them to use them repeatedly in the fashion you described.  It sounds like (from this discussion) that it isn't the spell that should be changed but the manner in which the spell can be/is used.

@ Enzo - I've had a much lower level character that was barely a caster (talan) and one that is a lot lower and not a caster at all that can solo a lot more than 10% of dregar.  In fact I have a ranger who can solo many areas on dregar in the low teens.  And not through any exploiting of the AI, just using stealth, tactics and... a strong build contributes a lot.

-TV

[Dorganath]

Talan Va'lash - 2/6/2006 4:02 PM  It sounds like (from this discussion) that it isn't the spell that should be changed but the manner in which the spell can be/is used.

 EXACTLY! However, if this cannot be realized by the mage community then our only real choice is to change and/or remove certain spells.

[miltonyorkcastle]

*chuckles*  what do you mean "no wards" G?  That's what magic items are for.  *snickers*  Seriously, I don't know of any magic items that offers death wards (nor would I really like to see one exist, since who would need a cleric with them anymore?), but then, how often does a 30-some-odd level fighter have to go up against 10+ casters all casting death spells so that his chance of rolling a one is significant?  Honestly, when the PC levels go way up, it's not the hordes of meat shields beating you down by shear numbers that are your feared enemy- they're predictable- it's that one really powerful lich or three really powerful witches that have more at their disposal than meager death attacks.  They know that if they're death attacks fail, they better have some stupidly high AC or DR or that fighter is going to rip them apart.  And that lich only has a 1 in 20 chance to see his Wail work?  Not good odds for the Lich.  Maybe I think like a dwarf, but when it comes to 30+ lvl fighter types, "death-ward is fer pansies."  

And perhaps my idea of "90%" is less than accurate, as I look back and consider some of the places and baddies on Dregar.  Still, having played epic casters on servers with stupidly powerful creatures, my breakdown from above still holds.  That said, you ask why an 18th level caster can solo Dregar and Enzo can't? Well, it all comes back around when, and I promise you, you break 30ish, and the mages can't do squat to an enemy, but you single-handedly kick it's butt.  I've seen it happen too many times.  See, 3rd ed. DnD (and 3.5) put a lot of stock in AC.  AC caps determine the strength of an enemy, in many cases.  In a low magic world, the AC cap is equally low, and it's not long before the fighter's AB breaks that cap.  Archer's can actually get some of the very best AB's.  30+ lvl fighter types just plain don't miss that often, especially with blindfight, and because they do stupid high amounts of damage, even the all powerful demigod gets a good chunk ripped out of it before it manages to get a Hold Monster off on the fighter.  Archers even have the advantage of being able to start tearing into a mage from outside most spell ranges, which means the caster has to spend a round moving into range before getting that death ray in or whatnot, all the while getting pummeled by rapid shot.  

This is to say nothing of critical hits, which again have a whole lot to do with AB and AC.  A single crit from a 30+ lvl fighter can end the fight in a single round.  Either because the caster will fumble the spell, or just outright die from HP loss.

[Crunch]

I haven't tried using tenser's while buffed to the max, but I can see the point made above about the power of repeatedly casting this spell.  Since I'm an evoker, which by the way has seemed an extremely poor choice for this world, I can't use summons to bail me out when I get in too deep.  I try to have one of these spells in my hip pocket to get out of a bad situation and it has often worked for that.  I've also used it when the party I'm with is in danger of getting overrun by creatures with magic resistance.  I would hate to see the spell go away entirely, but it might not be too bad for it to be limited to maybe 2 or 3 castings per 24 hour period.

I haven't really spent much time at all on Xantril, but based on my limited experience thus far fighting creatures with magic resistance, I probably would be useless for anything but buffing without this spell.  If I had my feats to do over again, I might be able to find room for the spell penetration feet, but as it is I usually can't seem to get spells through even on fairly weak demons.  This seems to be one of the few ways that a mage can contribute directly to fight against creatures with magic resistance.

[errk]

Orth, you state that 8+ mages go melee.  Tensers is a 6th circle spell, which I think one can first get at level 11?  So I’m guessing the problem you and the team are seeing are also polymorphing and this was not intended to be a discussion of Tensers alone?  Or was it?

Or is it more then that?  Are Mages able to go melee to often, even without a shapechange?  Are we talking clerics and bards as well? Fighter/Wiz combos?


I guess I agree with Talan. This is a very interesting discussion from very experienced people, but I don’t know who’s on topic and who isn’t.
(No offense intended to anyone.. : )
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PS. And can any 18th solo 90% of Dregar?  Guessing it depends on what you mean with 90% .. killing? Or just getting around.  

[Pankoki]

This discussion isn't only about Tenser's however. My level 7 mage can out perform a level 7 fighter using the normal polymorph spell. Doesn't even need to be a rocket scientist to figure out how.
  Tenser being the next on the step. But even then it doesn't end there.
  You go to level 9 spells and then you got Shapechange. The shapes from this spell are brutally retarded for a mage. One of the shapes has DR, insane HP, regeneration, decent AB. You name it.
  And while I strongly believe that the spells like this represent the power that mages can obtain from being unique or whatever. You then got people abusing these spells left and right, going over every single spawn in west, central, and east and not breaking a sweat, doing it constantly, day and night, 24/7 until they reach level 20 in a period of three months.
  Well... we got a problem.

[Pibemanden]

Well if it all comes down to not soloing it would make the game much more boring for some people... Basiacly if you like crafting you will end up wasting a lot of peoples time getting things that you could have gotten on your own, which in my oppinion is much better because you're only wasting you own time and not other players who might just like to chat a bit more. If Storold should ask people each time he is going to get sand or greenstone people would think of him as a nuisance.
Parties are good, yes. But they're not good for mindless gathering opperations, If I where going to get silver or some gems, besides greenstones and malanchite, I would most definatly get a party and not just try to get it on my own even if I had a chance.

Off-topic:

errk - 2/6/2006  11:20 PM
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PS. And can any 18th solo 90% of Dregar?  Guessing it depends on what you mean with 90% .. killing? Or just getting around.  

Well if it just depended on going around my level ten can do that fairly easy:). Killing stuff is a whole differend matter;)

[Varnart]

3 months..................level 20....................*cries*.............I want that too! I've been here with Taislin for 6 months and I'm level 9.......*cries more*

[Frendh]

People seem to mean different things when saying Soloing.
What I mean is when you go alone for greater gain.
Great XPs or great CNR is what I'd consider a greater gain.
(*grumbles about his small vocabulary*)

Chopping oak or digging sand are not among what I consider
a greater gain.

Like always, I might be wrong.

[Guardian 452]

Characters have roles.... Roges are toast if they Solo anything that is a challenge... unless they are a shadowdancer and spam HIPS to death.


The problem is Most classes NEED help to really shine..... Put a Ranger, or Fighter with a caster and they are awesome. Put that Rogue behind a meat sheild and they are killer!!!

BUT... the Caster (once into the low teens or even lower depending on the power build) can do whatever they want with or WITHOUT the rogue, ranger or fighter..... that right there is the problem... and I beleive is the issue being addressed.

[Aragon]

@G - I think you just used the key term to this whole conversation, "power build".  If this is suppose to be a RP server then why is Power building even being used.  I have seen so many posts on the forums that revolve around how can I make my character uber instead of how can I RP my background and alignment properly.  If people would think of the RP aspects first instead of how can I get to level 20 in 3 months, then this whole topic would be void.

3-6 months ago I could count the number of level 20+ players, I knew their characters by name and could probably state some event Chanda had with each of them.  Now I look at who is online and say .... what the heck .... who is that character and when did they start playing ... there is no way they are level 20.  Seriously I have been on this server since Nov 04 and Chanda only just made level 15.  Chanda has to do a lot of soloing because that is the nature of her character.  She doesn't do well in groups of "goodies" and thus the only groups she gets to be part of are other shady characters.  The effects of my soloing nature are reflected quite clearly in my 7 DTs.

We as a community need to stop this Uber rush.  Maybe we need a level 20 cap or something.  The problem being adressed in this thread is more than simply one or two spells that are being abused.  Its the mentality of the community.  When there were only a handful of gms around the level 20 was covenented.  Now its just another level with a quest involved.  *end rant*

[errk]

Ah, ok, Pan I’m starting to see the point (I think).
I can admit to polymorph and tensers for killing and what not.  But I can hardly say I’ve done it for XP alone.. (ok, I had 3k left to 8.. : )

.. I’ve had my eye on Shapechange for some time..  I can see how that spell could be a problem in Layonara since the fighters don’t get the same flurry of magical weapons and armor that they do in single-player, they simply become unbalanced.
But.. that is a spell you can get at 17, right?  Then they are almost at the lvl 20 cap. And will be stuck there for quite some time.

As a player that only plays mages (not very good however.. , I suggest reducing the spell duration first (seems to be the easiest and most effective).  If your going to change the polymorph spells, can’t you make instead make it possible to alter into something else for more RP then anything else?  Such as a whale, demon/angle (for cool looks only.. ). Gaseous form?  Table?  (ok.. I'm streching it a bit..)

 ..  oh well..  again. I see your point. Pity it has come to this, but I guess the game system itself brings this on as it was not primarily intended for persistent worlds.

@Aragon, I see your point as well, but the problem with powerbuilds and fast leveling in general can (probably) never be fully solved.  I personally don’t think a community such as this can self govern itself into following a general consensus.  If the system changes, people will try to find ways around it..  Intentionally or not.

[Dorganath]

This is getting wildly off-topic, but I suppose it has relevance.
  Level 20 in 3 months is just a bad idea for several reasons.
  @Varnart in particular, there's no reason why you would or should want to have reached level 20 in 3 months. I've been here since 10/1/2004 and just hit Level 20 a week or so ago. I know another character who's been here 2.5 years and just hit level 20 this past weekend. Don't be in such a hurry.
  A character who reaches level 20 in 3 months cannot progress past level 20 until that player has been around at least a year and that character has been around at least 8 months. A character that shoots through the levels then gets to wait until he/shefulfills all the minimum requirements of being able to go past 20th level, and then only maybe, because part of being able togo into Epic levels is having contributed to the world, and that is done through RP, not power-leveling.
  In an RP-rich world such as this, there's so much less depth to those who rise rapidly than there are to those who take their time and rise at a more reasonable rate.
  How this has any relevance at all to the discussion at hand is that in general, the mages who go out and solo a continent laying waste to all that is in their way through spell power, form alterations and summons are doing so for two very non-RP reasons: GP and XP. Pure mages are supposed to be mages, not fighters.
  Polymorph, Tenser's and Shapechange are there as examples, as Pan said, as to what can be achieved through power and as such they should be used, but used appropriately. They are not intended to be tools that turn mages into general-purpose fighters. This is the practice that concerns the Team. This is the practice that needs to stop, or these spells will be weakened for all, and not just those who abuse them.
  Now please, instead of having further debates on the merits of polymorphing or what "soloing" means, let's discuss the issue that is most applicable to our intent, and that is responsibility.
  How do you, the mage community, think this should be handled? What is the best possible outcome for all? And how will you ensure that the Team doesn't have to penalize everyone for the actions of a few?

[orth]

Thanks everyone for your feedback.  After the next update I will focus a lot of attention on combat oriented issues and take into account everyone's opinions and offer a proposal to the team.  We're capable of doing a lot more now, with relative ease with some of the core systems we have in place, so I think we could offer a lot of alternatives to "broken" things and make combat and magic a little more exciting and fun.

[ZeroVega]

Here's what I think would be a good idea. Since I play a wizard with all of the above spells. I don't really use them unless I'm in a group and my other spells have little affect, but that's neither here nor there.

Polymorph Self: Lasts 1 Turn +1 Round/2 levels

Tenser's Transformation: Lasts 1 Turn + 1 Round for every level above 12 to a maximum of +5 (Capping it at 17)

Shapechange: Lasts 1 Turn, +1 Round per level to a maximum of +25

Personally I think these are all fair time limits. Polymorph Self, in my mind looks fair because it's only a level 4 spell. It can still be used to heal on up, or help out in a fight, or work for a getaway, and can be extended with the small inconvenience of a level 5 spell slot. Tenser's time looks fair as it's capped off at level 17, which is when you'd get Shapechange anyway. Now Shapechange is definatly a safer spell as far as Protection goes, however from my experiance Tenser's does far more damage, and hits far more often. Shapechange also seems fair to me. It caps mid Epic and instead of lasting the 17 Turns it currently does at level 17, this will last for far less time, but still plenty to make getaways or help turn the tide of a battle by buying your buddies some time.

Also, I see dropping Tenser's Sword to +1 and 1d6 Fire Damage would be better than it is now, which I believe is +3 and 1d8 Fire Damage. With these changes even simple spells like Elemental Sheild will last longer than the change it's self, and will help diminish soloing. No more long drawn out battles with giants and ogres. Two to three minutes will now be the average for a shapeshift which will hopefully "fix" this "problem"

Also on a last note, I must agree with Ar7 quickly, that if certain spells were a bit better, I might never use spells such as Shapeshift. I believe setting spells back where they were power-wise, and raising the level needed to cast, or perhaps having a certiain amount of Int required as a pre-req before being able to pick the spell would help bring the "spell-slinger" back to wizards and sorcerers.

ZV-

[blonde]

As ZV says, Tenser's is much better offensive than any of the shapechenge forms. I cant believe that there are anyone using shapechange to solo stuff. With an AB of 16-19 and two attacks per round, you attack like a 10th lvl fighter. What they are good for are, as ZV says, as a last resort to run into the battle to take some blows for the fighters in the party, and of course they allow for some nice RP situations on quests.

And about bringing the "spell slinger" back. I play a wizard, and when im in a party, practically all my spells go to protect the fighters and hastes and stuff. So i dont have many slots for damage spells. The few times i chose to prepare some, i always end regretting it because they simply have no effect on the battle. I dont say that all the damage spells should be turned up, but...Try and compare it to the damage a weapon master dishes out.

I tried to kill a giant in the forest of mist with empowered greater missile storms. I had four of them, and the giant was still standing. That is 4 8th lvl spell slots to 'almost' kill one giant. Im not really an evocationist at all, so i probably wouldnt use many damage spells even if they had not been changed. Sorry that got way off topic again.

You could let the spell's damage dice also be dependant on feats like spell focus and greater spell focus. Anyway, just a random idea really.

My last comment is, find a party to travel with and have some fun with. It's so much more rewarding.

[Ar7]

Having thought about the issue for some time, after all, I do play a wizard, I came up with something that seems to me as a good way to solve this problem. What has come up in this discussion is more than a problem with a single spell or a spell group, there is a mistake in the way the arcane casters are handled as a whole.

As I stated earlier the overusage of polymorph spells seems to be coming from the changes made to other spells and I see that some of the other players seem to agree with that. But now as I thought of my previous words, I could already imagine what the words "Increase the power of the spells" stirred up in the minds of the GMs. I needed to be more clear, more specific in term of what I expected when I wrote that.

As I look at the previous changes made to balance the spells, it seems to me that they were made in an effort to balance a single spell for the entire range of characters. But it is hard to make a spell fit a level 9, 16 and 22 spellcaster. There are bound to be problems, it shall be too good for the low level or become worthless to the high level. Such changes will always leave many unhappy and I believe it is what we are witnessing now.

What I propose is to make the spell consist of many spells, each meant for low, medium, high and epic level character. What do I mean by that? I shall take Firebrand as an example and try to explain. I take Firebrand because it was considered too good at low levels and changed, making it quite useless at higher levels, so it illustrates my point completly.

Firebrand a level 5 spell, so

For medium levels 9 - 15 Firebrand does 1d6/level (fire) to a maximum of 10d6
For high levels 15 - 20 Firebrand does 1d6/level for each level after 5 (fire) to a maximum of 15d6 on level 20
For epic levels 20+ Firebrand does 1d6/level (fire) to a maximum of 15d6 and 1d6/level after level 20 (divine) to a maximum of 5d6 at level 25

The specific changes to each spell are a matter of debate, but this example simply illustrates the idea. There are many possibilities to experiment with different damage types, damages ranges (1d4, 1d6, 2d4 etc) and different effect (stun, silent etc)

What does this accomplish?

- Spells are balanced and usuable around the level range, arcane casters actually will feel that their spell makes a difference.
- Eliminates the "It took 4 empowered Greater Isaacs to almost kill a giant" problem
- Gives mages progress in the epic levels. I am not saying this because I play an epic mage. It is simply a matter of logic. Enemies become more powerful at epic levels, fighter classes gain AB to help them become better at what they do, but mages/sorcerers have to face MUCH tougher foes with the same spells they got to face giants on Dregar.
- This will lean sorcerers/wizards towards casting spells, rather than going into melee.

Such changes can be applied to Tenser's and Shapechange.( different shapes at different levels for example )

But with the problem of abusing I think talking is more important. It is not efficient to simply monitor players' actions for a few months and then afterwards hit the player base with a "We had to change X and Y, because you broke the spirit of the world" As easy at it often sounds, the spirit of the world is a hard thing to determine correctly.

The players who are abusing are known, especially since they level very fast. The DMs who notice this should talk to each player they see overusing some spells. It is the best choice of action, people who are doing wrong will actually know 100% that THEY are the ones doing the wrong thing. I am sure some of the players do not know if the problem is with them, not to mention those that do not read the forums.

The DM team does not have to police the players. A quick two sentence explanation of what a player is doing wrong is enough and it is often the most efficient way to change things. In most cases it should be all that takes to make a player reconsider, but in some exceptional cases a few punishments should apply.

What I am trying to say is, do not bend the system to correct the errors of a few. Try to change the one who did wrong.

This was a long post, hopefully it will find  feedback with constructive critique.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Good post AR7. Good ideas and sound reasoning in my opinion.

[ZeroVega]

Like Harlas I like Ar7s post. I agree with it too. It's not really empowering spells, it's giving them a more natural progression that doesn't end 1-3 levels after you attain the spell (which is what happens with many damage spells). Also it would still be a fair idea to tone down the Shapechange ect spells to assure balance.