Author Topic: Minimum XP for crafting (Read 1851 times)

Dezza · « **on:** February 22, 2006, 12:34:26 AM »

I think this was mentioned a long time ago but...

When people run around hacking and slashing across the world no matter where they are, what creature they face they will always get minimum 1xp for a basic kill.

Now whats 1 xp between friends you say and I agree...but...just for balance sake why would you not get at least 1xp for crafting something that was basic for you to make instead of nothing?

Leanthar · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2006, 01:32:05 AM »

Well one reason is that XP for creatures takes in the millions and millions to reach level 20 for character levels. It takes far less than that to reach 20th for crafting.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2006, 02:38:53 AM »

Invent partial XP.

Nyralotep · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2006, 10:56:52 AM »

Don't know if it couold be implemented but I would like a sort of recursive system for partial XP. Take Amaduena for example, she's a 17th level gem crafter. The only gems she gets XP for cutting are diamonds, rubies and emeralds, both way out of her range to currently get with a party. But I would like to see her get partial XP from the last item that became trivial, Fire Opal I think, not sure. But only from that or we would get people getting greenstone and leveling off of that. I'm sure it would be more trouble than it's worth though.

Stranzini · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2006, 04:47:20 AM »

It does seem to me that any creature, no matter how trivial could conceivably hurt you, especially if he has friends - there is some trivial risk associated with that one xp. When the chance of success is 100% on crafting there is zero risk, so the zero xp associated sort of always made sense to me.

I'm operating on the assumption that as long as I have a chance of failure on a crafting activity I will make at least one xp on success, which has seemed true at least up to now in my experience...

Weeblie · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2006, 05:31:07 AM »

You can always try to decrease some of your key ability points while crafting...

Dorganath · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2006, 05:48:38 AM »

Quote

Weeblie - 2/23/2006 7:31 AM You can always try to decrease some of your key ability points while crafting...

Please don't advocate this practice....it's an exploit of the XP code for crafting. There's not a heck ofa lot we can do about it, except to ask that you not do this as a practice just to gain a few extra XP.
Thank you for your cooperation.

goldz8 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2006, 11:51:08 PM »

Why not make the chance to craft a trivial item 99% (instead of 100%) and give 1XP if sucessful. Is that fair?

Weeblie · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2006, 11:53:15 PM »

Quote

Dorganath - 2/23/2006 2:48 PM
Quote
Weeblie - 2/23/2006 7:31 AM You can always try to decrease some of your key ability points while crafting...
Please don't advocate this practice....it's an exploit of the XP code for crafting. There's not a heck of a lot we can do about it, except to ask that you not do this as a practice just to gain a few extra XP.
Thank you for your cooperation.

Ah, alright. Well, I'm not doing it myself. That was just a thought... Hehe, except for not casting buffs before crafting. And sometimes regretting it afterwards when receving "You rolled a 2, but need a 3" message.

Stranzini · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2006, 11:53:36 PM »

Why do we need to earn xp for crafting trivial items anyway?

If its because we are stuck in a plateau where everything on the craft table is either too easy - and gives no experience - or too hard to have any real chance of success - the item has a chance of success of 0 or 10% maybe, or requires resources we have no prayer of getting our hands on...then the problem is with the progression in that craft and we should propose some new intermediate level recipes that could fill in the gap, rather than boring ourselves to death remaking the same old trivial items.

Sen has been badly stuck in a gap like this on the musical instrument craft ladder, which is a craft which is particularly poorly developed as far as its number of recipes and progression, but it is also due to his character stats being weak in one area which lowers his chance of success on the "difficult" things and effectively makes the gap between things he can make but that give him very little experience and things he can hardly ever succeed to make very large. I'm sure such gaps exist at various points in all the crafts - we should probably identify them for the developers and suggest fun additions to the craft ladder that would fix the problem.

If its not for this reason, I don't see a valid reason to need to earn xp for trivial work. The (real life) craftsman who is churning out the same product for the 1000th time may be doing it because he can sell them and make money, but he's not advancing much in his craft by doing it...if he wants to learn something he needs to be experimenting with something else, working on making something better. So if he's making the same old thing, he is doing it for the gold, not the xp...the system's right as it is.

goldz8 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2006, 12:58:35 AM »

Even master crafters have bad days. That's why I proposed the 99% chance to craft trivial items.

Harloff · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2006, 01:51:58 AM »

*nods* I know a blacksmith and eventhough he has been making knifs for years he can still fail his attempts. Not getting the edge proberly welded together with the body of the knife, failing to harden the knife etc. But if there should still be a chance of failing I think the difficulty should cap at 95 %, and still giving the crafter the exp associated with 95 % likelyhood. Just to simulate nomatter how good you become you can still fail, I don't think one single person in the world can be 100 % sure to make an iron longsword each time he tries. (assuming that he makes a real longsword with edge an everything and not just one of those battleswords you can buy for show figthing.)

Stranzini · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2006, 01:39:59 PM »

The seemingly much greater than 1% chance of breaking his tool seems to pretty much take cover of this problem doesn't it?

goldz8 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2006, 08:44:02 PM »

Not really - the 1% change of tool breaking only makes it necessary to buy another tool. It doesn't affect the character's chance of making an item - that is still 100% when trivial.

Stranzini · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2006, 12:31:45 AM »

*grins*
I guess you're right...I look at it as "now I'm going to make a hickory chimes"...*poses materials on the workbench*...*tool breaks*..."no, now I'm not going to make a hickory chimes, now I'm going to go to the store"...*leaves craft hall*

All depends on how you define success...

In any case, I still am not sure why we should earn xp for easy items.

goldz8 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 26, 2006, 04:22:48 AM »

For the same reason that you get 1 XP for killing easy monsters. But Leanthar mentioned that the XP system of adventuring is on a different scale to that of crafting. So 1 XP in crafting is worth more than 1 XP in adventuring. Perhaps an adjustment of the crafting XP is required?

Even though Layonara is a RP world people are XP hungry because it feels good to gain a level - it feels like you've accomplished something. Most mammals work like this - dogs, mice, lions and dolphins (etc.) are all trained by giving them a reward (usually food). They wouldn't do the tricks unless they were rewarded. Humans are just like other mammals. We like getting rewards for doing things.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #16 on:** February 26, 2006, 05:07:04 AM »

I hate to be the devil's advocate against getting more XP, but I have this to say.

Ever think that your reward could be the item, or the gold/whatever you get for selling it? Or, gods forbid, the in-game satisfaction your character gets for a job well done?

goldz8 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 26, 2006, 09:00:18 AM »

The same could be said for killing a monster. Why get XP when your character gains the satisfaction of the kill (or destruction) and some gold or loot?

Dezza · « **Reply #18 on:** February 26, 2006, 01:28:59 PM »

Quote

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/27/2006 12:07 AM

I hate to be the devil's advocate against getting more XP, but I have this to say.

Ever think that your reward could be the item, or the gold/whatever you get for selling it? Or, gods forbid, the in-game satisfaction your character gets for a job well done?

I hear what you are saying and only threw it out there as I have a high level crafter that is constantly asked to make low level items or..has to make heaps of low level items to complete high level items.

Also at higher levels of crafting its difficult to advance any further in many crafts unless you are a lot higher level so you can go to crazy places like Firesteep, rift, Xantril for high end cnr materials which are life threatening to find and barely ever worth finding as 'thats the end of that' occurs so much more frequently...

hehe as I said I was only throwing it out there and L had a fair point so....

Dorganath · « **Reply #19 on:** February 26, 2006, 01:34:36 PM »

Alright, from my perspective as a developer for Layonara, I really have to question the benefit of XP for trivial items vs. the added complexity of implement special cases for trivial crafting and/or realigning the crafting XP system...which would be a very non-trivial balancing exercise.
Fact is, 1 XP in adventuring makes almost no difference to characters once they actually hit that point, especially since we have elongated XP charts. 1 XP in crafting, though still minor, has a much larger net effect. I know we don't want to elongate the XP charts for crafting, as that would slow craftng to the point where it's nearly impossible to advance...unless we then make crafting pay out more XP...but then we're also giving out more adventuring XP, so we have to make a special case to reduce adventuring XP.... So you see, it's not like we can just tweak one thing and have it not affect anything else.