Trouble with sign language

[SuperMunch]

Freldo's a smart guy, (14 Int on a Bard), and he surely could make some sense out of what Dumb-as-a-Stump signs but I have a few concerns about this.

Reading Stump's submission, it's clear that "he can’t speak and he communicates with rudimentary signs".  However his use of signs is nothing but exceptional - he can communicate complex (as in non-rudimentary) thoughts and ideas.

Mute characters are intresting but, IMVHO, require a lot more work on the part of the player to allow other characters to understand what he's trying to say, a simple example would be *points to his blood dripping from his wounds and makes a hurt face* (a very subjective "Heal me!").  Remember that inteligence and dexterity would limit ones comunicating skills along with line of sight and distance.

Just prefixing "*Gestures and signs*" and saying something like "Are you going to the crypts?  Erag wants me to fetch an essence" isn't exactly using rudimentary signs.

Again, in my opinion, it's tough, but if you start your character that way, you must know that developing a character that way is pretty hard.  I think that Redhawk should be more conscious of this, Stump has a REAL problem with communication, you can't just pretend it doesn't exist just because game mechanics allow it.  May I suggest he use whisper for more complex ideas and talk for signing?

On my part, last night I was really tired to adequately role play this, but I'll remember this and act accordingly - despite my knowledge that other characters with less Int (compared to Freldo's) will interpret Stump's signing perfectly and probably mock Freldo for not understanding the big friendly half-giant.

[Dorganath]

Heh...well a couple things.
  A low-INT character is going to have trouble communicating at all, whether it's in words or in some form of gestures that may make sense to him but not necessarily to anyone else. In that respect, communicating with Stump should be difficult...very difficult really. Using whispers or tells to get around that isn't really in the spirit of good RP. And someone with low INT isn't typcially going to have complex thoughts...and will probably have trouble understanding requests from someone like Erag or Talon who speak in full sentences and are asking for things that don't make sense to him.So whispering or using tells or whatever isn't really right for the character. Stump might indicate hunger by patting himself on the head. Why? Who knows...doesn't matter. But it might make sense to Stump, and that's what Stump should portray.
  Second. not that it would apply in this case because a character like stump probably wouldn't be able to learn it, but there is a sign language ear in-game. The way those gesturs work, it's pretty impossible to figure out the meaning of them unless your character were to know how to sign.
  Yes, it is, in some respects, upon the gesturing character to make his/her thoughts known (if desired) to other characters, but also remember that the character making the gestures may not have the same way of thinking as you or your character does, so non-verbal communication will always be a bit of a difficult task.

[Gulnyr]

I happen to have a lot of experience with this...

First, though:

SuperMunch: Freldo's a smart guy, (14 Int on a Bard), and he surely could make some sense out of what Dumb-as-a-Stump signs

I have to disagree with this.  Whether it's a formal sign language or a rudimentary collection of signs, sign language is a language.  Being highly intelligent doesn't mean a character would understand the swish of an arm or the flash of some fingers any more than he would understand a Dwarven toast or Goblin jeer.  A more intelligent signer, though, might be able to connect with a 'listener' in a way that communication could be possible.  A less intelligent signer would be much harder to understand.  As Dorganath pointed out:

Dorganath: A low-INT character is going to have trouble communicating at all, whether it's in words or in some form of gestures that may make sense to him but not necessarily to anyone else.

Now, my character Jennara doesn't talk much.  When she does speak, it's in a whisper.  She has the Ear for Sign Language, but that hasn't always existed.  So, she has a lot of "simplified" signs that have developed through trying to roleplay a mostly-silent character.

Let's say there's a group on it's way somewhere and Jennara wants to go along:

*points to herself, points to the group, points a finger on each hand and moves them together*

"I, you, together"

Of course, I don't tell anyone what it means, in a whisper or a tell or any other way.  They have to figure it out.

All the simplified signs (as opposed to the complex signs of Sign Language) I use were developed with a little thought through roleplaying.  If anyone wants to play a character who can't or won't speak, I seriously recommend emoting the actions of the character when trying to communicate with others.  Communication is slow and it won't be very complex, but it's the only way to go to truly stay in-character.  It's a lot of fun, even though it takes some effort and patience.  

The situation here brings in some conditions I didn't have to face with Jennara.  Jennara has an above-average Intelligence, so she can purposely try to emote signs that her target audience will understand.  A less intelligent character might only know one way to sign and have no concept of others not understanding.  Also, Jennara can speak; she would just prefer not to most of the time.  She can decide when continuing attempts to sign are going nowhere and move in for the whisper.  A character who cannot speak isn't going to have that luxury, and the choice to be mute should be played out fully in-character.

SperMunch: I think that Redhawk should be more conscious of this, Stump has a REAL problem with communication, you can't just pretend it doesn't exist just because game mechanics allow it.

That's a very good point.  A mute character with a low Intelligence is going to be hard to play as far as communication goes.  There are the hard way and the easy way to deal with it.  The hard way is to really get into it and stick by the character concept.  There won't be a lot of meaningful communication with a character like that, but that doesn't mean the character can't be involved in some good roleplay.  It will just be tougher.  

The easy way to resolve the problem is to revise the character concept.  If you don't really want to play an unintelligent character that can't communicate well, then don't.  It's not fair to you or to other players to 'cheat' your way around a character's flaws because NWN will let you.

[Redhawk]

thank you so much for the constructive criticism.  i did some pondering about last nights trip into the crypts and realized that stump's muteness and efforts to communicate need to be vastly improved. 1) it is a failure on my part to think that if there is a sword in one hand and a shield in the other, that stump can communicate at all -- beyond emotes (pants, pointing, etc). 2) low intellegence is low intellegence -- i have been pondering the fact that low intellegence in stumps case  has a lot to do with the fact that he can't speak, also keep in mind that stump did learn sign language or was taught sign language by a very patient elf (it's all there in the background).  Whipsers and tells are not how i want to go, it negates the ideas behind world immersion -- same reason i will never say OCC and then speak.... this of course becomes MONSTROUSLY close to impossible when i'm trying to work around the fact that stump can't accept a barter.  Stump is routinley mocked, ridiculed and i get at least one tell a game that i need to change his name. which confuses me because the floaty name isn't really visible to the characters -- he introduces himself as *points to chest* *makes sign for stump*   it will get better as i sort out the details, last night i made some mistakes and i will have to learn to live with the fact that stump isn't going to be all that well accepted and understood -- i choose the character concept because it challenges me.  i did not know about the sign language ear, i will put in a request for it.  thanks for your patience and your pointers, redhawk

[Gulnyr]

Redhawk - 3/3/2006  5:36 PM
he introduces himself as *points to chest* *makes sign for stump*

For this, I'd suggest making up a sign for "stump."  First, if someone comes up to me in real life and makes the sign for "stump", I'm going to be clueless.  I'll be able to describe the gesture, maybe, but won't have any idea what it means.  Second, no one is going to emote *says the Elven word for 'hello'*.  Sign language, even just built of emotes without the use of the Ear, is still a language.  Being a special case in Layonara, you can make up whatever you want for it and it's suddenly "official."  No one will be able to tell you that emote isn't really your character's name.  

If I'm thinking of a gesture for "stump," I'd use *places a fist in his palm*, kinda like playing Rock-Paper-Scissors and going for Rock.  Use that one if you like, or make up your own.  Whatever works for you.

[Redhawk]

gulnyr, yeah, the struggle becomes the length of the custom emotes.  i'm trying to quick key it and i may have to do 2 or even 3 quick slots instead of one. How about *points to tree and makes cutting motion* *points to himself* ... not very clear, but hey... that's the point... any other tips from people who see stump i would love. thanks redhawk

[Redhawk]

i'll add that tonight, struggling to get the points across that i couldn't sign, i did resort to a 2 word sentence scratched into the dirt with a skinning knife. badly spelled and crudly written, but always a way to make a desperate point if not in the heat of battle. more two cents, redhawk