Author Topic: Clerics who cast "divine whateverBecauseIcan'tRP" (Read 1546 times)

Drizzlin · « **Reply #20 on:** April 12, 2006, 10:53:33 AM »

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miltonyorkcastle - 4/12/2006 10:42 AM

@ Drizzlin

haha, no, the CLERIC casting it loses 10k XP, not the person being res'd. and in NWN it does it automatically, but spellcraft assumes you are watching them closely. someone can cast the spell without your knowledge easy if your character isn't paying attention and fails a spot check, if you really want to get mechanical about it.

WHAT? LoL brutal. I did not know that. Either way, the best time for a cleric to cast that spell would be in mass combat, or after ther person is dead...if it can be cast then.

miltonyorkcastle · « **Reply #21 on:** April 12, 2006, 10:55:37 AM »

*chuckles* like I said, the gods get pissy when you do their enemies a favor.

SquareKnot · « **Reply #22 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:21:52 AM »

Is Divine Relation bad roleplay? That depends. One of the first comments was from a cleric of Aragen. Being a cleric with the Knowledge domain is tough in a computer game, since spells like Augury and Divination don't really work (or exist) without a GM's help. But here clerics have a chance to offer up a simple prayer and have the All-Knowing tell them something useful. Excellent role play, really. Throw that priest some love. The whole spellcraft thing is fine. If someone makes their spellcraft check, they deserve to know that the cleric is praying to know someone's deity of choice. They might even be able to figure out they are the target. Joe the Spellcaster didn't spend 25 years studying magic for nothing. Throw that spellcaster some love. The problem I see is the special effects with the spell, and the way people recognize it. I've seen this: Half Giant Grrr: Me Luv Kill Stuff Cleric Ed: * thinks * Hmm, this brute enjoys killing? He must be evil... Ed casting unknown spell * Ed runs over to Grrr, waves his hands in Grrr's face, a 3D glowing asterisk appears over Ed's head * Ed casts unknown spell Grrr: * in incredible flash of brillance * Me no like you using invasive magic to determine my deity Grrr: me smash rude priest-man How did he know what was going on? Now that's bad role play. Throw the Int 8, Wis 7 character a spanking. If this is really a quiet prayer between a diety and his servant, can we tone down the effect, or eliminate it? It might not stop this kind of thing, but it would help with the immersion. Just my thoughts...

Rayenoir · « **Reply #23 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:22:34 AM »

Can I point out that it's not "I-magically-discern-your-religion"? As I understand, it only tells you which your deity is of the five inter-deity attitudes. As in, Allied, Friendly, Neutral, Unfriendly, Enemy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a *lot* of wiggle room in there that you have to work out before you find out exactly who a person follows, and why, and so on. Not all characters have the attitude to care why you follow the deity you do, knowing that their god/dess considers you an enemy is enough. As well, some would consider that a reason to try to convert you.

Acacea · « **Reply #24 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:29:06 AM »

That's correct. It does not tell who the deity is. It does not tell the alignment of the deity. It is a priest knowing how his deity feels about the other one. Toran and Lucinda are good examples. Both good. Divine relation senses unfriendly or enemy.

And I'm sorry, I have to disagree on the spellcraft thing. Yes, he's studied for however long. But I don't really buy that "I'm an arcane spellcaster and can sense the chat a priest is having with his god."

Just my opinion, there. (Not sure why the disclaimer...not like you think it's going to be someone else's, right?)

SquareKnot · « **Reply #25 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:58:29 AM »

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And I'm sorry, I have to disagree on the spellcraft thing. Yes, he's studied for however long. But I don't really buy that "I'm an arcane spellcaster and can sense the chat a priest is having with his god."

Yeah, I really don't like that either. But from what I can tell, D&D 3.5 allows it. Can anyone more familiar with the PnP rules confirm that's correct? That Spellcraft checks done by a wizard will identify clerical magic? But in PnP, the person must hear the spell and see the motions to recognize it, and I can see a cleric turning her back and whispering, making the spellcraft check void. In any case, the game engine is going to do the roll, unless Divine Relation could somehow be made something other than a spell, which is more work than it's worth.

The other, more pertinent thing, is the whole "all magic comes through the Weave, so my study of the Weave lets me recognize that the cleric over there is receiving information using the Weave." Kind of weak, but it does offer some explanation. The exact nature of the information probably wouldn't be obvious, though. Maybe she was praying for a new pie recipe...

SuperMunch · « **Reply #26 on:** April 12, 2006, 12:19:55 PM »

As per d20srd.org, there's no mention of whether it works or not but it does mention that, "you must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components."

Assuming D&D 3.0 wasn't more complicated, I believe this still holds.

It's your call I guess and I agree with the differentiation of arcane and divine magic but, by what I understand of Layonara's magic system, they do come from the weave so an arcane and divine spell that has the same end result would be cast in the same way.

As a bard, I imagine Freldo has no idea how the stuff comes into being, he sings some strange words and waves his hands in a strange way (that he knows, for some reason) and pop, it comes into being - as the magic system in the Belgariad. Sorcerors I also imagine this happening but in a deeper way, they can consciously feel the surge from the weave and tap into it.

That's just my guess.

Weeblie · « **Reply #27 on:** April 12, 2006, 12:30:47 PM »

Divine Relation is not a PnP spell. And not a NWN spell. It's a Layo spell. If Leanthar and the other DMs say "undetectable", it is "undetectable" then! No need to argue over it!

I don't think that one as a spell. More like a direct phone line to one's god to check another persons divine relation.

Cleric: "Hi, Boss! Good or bad guy?"
God: "Uh... Lets see..."
*the god checks his online-database*
God: "Bad... Smite him!"
Cleric: "Right!"
*to be continued...*

Icurus · « **Reply #28 on:** April 12, 2006, 02:16:08 PM »

Yeah, I've cast this on Matilda and she told me it was rude (and I went with that since then), though, I couldn't see why the heck we'd have the spell otherwise except to determine what connection I had to another (besides, I can't remember all the connections the Gods have to other Gods). It does make sense to use it to figure out if you even should be healing another or even resurrecting them...however, it's also good to know if you should even be talking with somebody or be suspicious....however, I have gone about being suspicious of those whose actions are against my God's judgement.

Neat, I can use it again.

One other point, NWN doesn't have detect lie (heck, I don't really know if 3rd ed has it) but Clerics use to have it and this isn't a detect lie but just a detect faith (sort of). Frankly, I'd rather have Detect Lie but I'll settle for this.

Millan · « **Reply #29 on:** April 12, 2006, 02:49:46 PM »

Yeah I have a big dumby...err Half Giant. I have had this spell used on me, all though IC I just accused them of cursing me. Of course I do that when someone casts stone skin on me. I do agree with Drizzlin in a lot of ways, just a weak way of getting out of trying to RP with a person to see who they view life and their attitudes.

I also see the point about a cleric needing to know what god you worship before bringing you back to life...my comment to that is, you should know who you are traveling with before you use such powerful magic, given to you by your god, to bring them back to life. Reminds me of the whole frog and spider crossing the river story. In the end, the frog knew he trusted a spider...

Drizzlin · « **Reply #30 on:** April 12, 2006, 02:53:57 PM »

Again, I am sorry that the post was recieved in such a defensive manner. I was being serious, but at the same time sarcastic. Hope those I made mad forgive me. I may be a jerk drow in game, but I am a reasonable person IRL.

Great input from folks and I appreciate the constructive comments. I even learned a few things. I do however still stand firm, that the spell is the easy way out for your clerics runnig up to people and casting it, then going right into "you are a skum corathite" which was done to someone next to me. This is why I thought the spell told you the actual god the person followed, because after casting the spell they mentioned the players god.

Thanks again.

Leanthar · « **Reply #31 on:** April 12, 2006, 03:10:22 PM »

"....I do however still stand firm, that the spell is the easy way out for your clerics runnig up to people and casting it, then going right into "you are a skum corathite" which was done to someone next to me...."

Yep, I agree. If it was done in this fashion and for this purpose then it was not good RP. But if it was done for some other reason (somewhere along the way for some reason) and the character learned of it then it is good RP.... depends on when it was done and for what purpose.

xXDenizeNXx · « **Reply #32 on:** April 12, 2006, 04:50:58 PM »

I can't help but think that if you had of taken the time to find out exactly what the spell does and why it is cast then you wouldn't have needed the epic above! And for one that guesses it is not a big issue anyhow you certainly defend it tooth and nail heh

However your last Comment I agree with, that situation is bad rping on the clerics part, but just a suggestion... perhaps accussing all clerics of not being able to RP wasn't a good topic of a thread in hindsight LOLz
Peace Dude Take a chill pill.
Den

Polak76 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 12, 2006, 06:43:47 PM »

"Yep, I agree. If it was done in this fashion and for this purpose then it was not good RP. But if it was done for some other reason (somewhere along the way for some reason) and the character learned of it then it is good RP.... depends on when it was done and for what purpose."

Thank God us corathites have some chance for discretion. Everyone please note L's remark!

Anyway reading all the arguments posted above it brings to mind a few topics about divine magic.
I'd like to think of Divine magic as Blessings and Curses, which are ultimately fabricated by the Gods but requested by the PC. Now if you take magic from a physics point of view and call it energy (which is neither created nor destroyed), the God's would maniuplate this energy to perform the task the PC has prayed for. It would be at that point that another character could use Spellcraft to identify what is actually happening. So if we refrain from thinking of magic from clerics as spells and focus it on being prayers, everyone would understand what he/she is praying for. Most of the time a Cleric is proud, confident and charismatic, raising their voice and beconing their God to perform amazing feats. Unless they speak another language all would understand what they are asking, hence making Spellcraft irrelavant at that point.
ie: "Lord Corath, most unoly God of Darkness, smite thy foes with thou malevolent wrath, burn their souls into oblivion and rend their flesh asunder". Now my character Ezekiel would shout something like this. The prayer might lead to Flame Strike (lvl 5 cleric). If anyone was near my identity would be striken, and everyone would know that something damageing would happen. At the point where the energy around is being manipulated by the Gods into the Flame Strike a successful spell-check at that point would prove beneficial.

I'd like to see Clerics as being more devout to a point of being overzealous. I think many people use the Cleric class/multiclass for a means to powerbuild and not as a conduit to their God. When they do this they dont get into the theme of being a selected individual from their God (something that they should be immensely proud of). Please note that this does not imply to all Clerics I see. Many of you do a fantastic job of RP with them.

Cheers,
Polak76

lonnarin · « **Reply #34 on:** April 12, 2006, 07:58:34 PM »

*shrugs* I usually just tell people I'm warding them from mosquitos. NOBODY enjoys tiny blood-sucking parasites buzzing in their ears, so I almost always get a thank you.

Icurus · « **Reply #35 on:** April 12, 2006, 10:18:50 PM »

Ahhh, I hate to tell you all that Divine Relation doesn't tell a person which God/Goddess you worship, just the connection between them. So, I'm doubting a person would run up to somebody and say, "you filthy Corathite," because he wouldn't know.

However, because those with Spellcraft can tell what you're casting, it can be just as bad that they know, even if they're a mage and really shouldn't know, what you're casting and then accuse you of being rude.

xXDenizeNXx · « **Reply #36 on:** April 12, 2006, 10:28:11 PM »

amen to that.

Drizzlin · « **Reply #37 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:08:20 PM »

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Icurus - 4/12/2006 10:18 PM

Ahhh, I hate to tell you all that Divine Relation doesn't tell a person which God/Goddess you worship, just the connection between them. So, I'm doubting a person would run up to somebody and say, "you filthy Corathite," because he wouldn't know.

However, because those with Spellcraft can tell what you're casting, it can be just as bad that they know, even if they're a mage and really shouldn't know, what you're casting and then accuse you of being rude.

Well now you are really taking this off topic and into a whole other realm, rules laywers *blah*. NWN, and Layonara on that part, are based off of D&D 3.5 rules. Go read spell craft.It says right at the start of it...

SPELLCRAFT "Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place".

It doesn't matter if you are a cleric, mage, rogue, barbarian, warrior...if you have spell craft that is it's main purpose. With a 15+ check, you can tell what spell is being cast (but you must see or hear it being done) and with a 20+ spell craft check, you can "Identify spells that are already in place". This would leave you with only being able to come back and say "well cleric spells are not spells", when cleric spells are in fact spells.

Spells in D&D are spells, whether they are holy or arcane. It really shouldn't (and isn't IMO) a debate on whether spell craft checks can identify cleric spells.

And to add to the above statement where I said a cleric cast the divine spell on a person next to me and proceeded to accuse them of being a corathite. The person who was on the recieving end was Myrena. I am not making it up.

I have only come into contact with the casting of this spell 4 times, and each time it was used in the manner I described, which is why I hold such a high opinion of it. Most good RPing clerics I run into don't use the spell, they just do some RPing and can discern a persons beliefs by how they conduct themselves in both conversation and action. So maybe I am bing harsh in stereotyping other clerics because of those 4, but at the same time it only takes 1 person to ruin it for the whole =P I give everyone a fair stab from the start.

Either way I don't want this to be some huge post that keeps getting beat into the ground. I'm not trying to change anyones opinion, nor am I trying to ask for a change in Layonara's rules, i'm just giving my opinion (even if I went about it wrong at first). IMO it's weak and the easy way out. Just like using Gate Spell to get from the pits of a cave to your house so you can harvest some ore/gems. IMO, to me, that is how I see it.

Icurus · « **Reply #38 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:17:45 PM »

So, I was just stating fact.

All the other stuff doesn't mean anything to me because I really don't bother with it all. You can RP your character however you want, just saying that Divine Relation doesn't state what God/Goddess a person worships.

Funny how you blame somebody for being a Rule Lawyer and then go into the rules of 3.5 *rolling my eyes and laughing* It's just too funny.

Polak76 · « **Reply #39 on:** April 13, 2006, 12:27:09 AM »

I think we need to leave this topic. This is Layo and it's in our mature hands to RP with fairness and equality regardless what the DnD engine allows or states in the rulebooks.

All people's opinions I've read thus far are both interesting and valid. Lets leave it on a good note.

Polak76