Unwanted summons

[ohboy007]

I know this topic has probably been discussed a 1000 times before but if you people out there could indulge me i would appreciat it. As i understand it, it is an evil act to summon undead and those of good aliments will naturely find the undead to be vile. If these good characters are with someone who summons one they will likely not want to be around that person, unless absolutly neccesary and will see to it they are not around undead. Well when Jareg happened to join up with a party and he had a little beef with a mage who summoned a skeleton warrior; Jareg asked him to unsummon it. After the mage had insulted Jareg and refused, I felt that Jareg would naturaly dispose of the summon, so Jareg sliced up the skeleton in a few rounds. I was expecting that he would get mad, as a necromancer might and issue me a challenge at the arena or something. But the mage left instead. Later the player pmed me and was upset with my action seeing it as illegal and accused me of hideing behind pvp rules, and that i had unwittingly made his character out to be a wimp because he could not attack me for attacking his minion.

 I explained to him that that wasn't my intention but that i did see his point about the fact that he realy couldn't legaly hurt me and thus i shouldn't have done done my act. I did however tell him that perhaps I could have taken my half of the party and simply left but it seemd most of the party was on my side anyhow (the good alinments) and this mage was more of an outsider (he had a few compainions in the party but more than 3/4th of it were Jaregs people he hanges out with. I also cautioned him that that was one of the draw backs of undead summons was that goodly people will not tolerate what they see as evil. If I went too far it's only because I wanted rp what i thought was right in that situation without trying to anger any player, i figured only a good rilvary would come out of it and not hurt feelings (player that is). I don't think there is anymore problems as i had talked to him afterwards and will discuss it with him again on how we can rp this rilvary out better without any body feeling cheated. If i did something wrong then do let me know or how you might have handled the situation different. Thank you, ohboy007.

 Ps. Yes Jareg follows a CN god of trickery, but he is himself a CG character, and part of his bio is that he resents evil and even his planar heritage. Best way I can describe him is a drinking, womanizeing, mischievious trouble maker with a heart of gold. he doesn't even use his gods summons finding them to be against his moral fiber, he couldn't stand the thought of summoning lost and trapped souls to do his bidding. All that is the reason he doesn't like undeaders or "skull-lickers" as he would put it.

[Varka]

I would like to hear a comment from a GM on it as well. And short please...

Attacking a summon - I dont think that is allowed

Normally I use "emotes" to show the action, but how the "mage" will act on it?
*Varka takes his dwarven waraxe and cleaves the undead*

If the mage does not react on it (normally they do and un-summon it) well..........then just spilt up because you can not do otherwise which *curses*

[Nyralotep]

The necromantic arts are not necessarily evil. The church of Lucinda has a Necromancer that sits in a fairly high position if I remember correctly from the Players Handbook. Much as you state about RP I believe it possible to summon the undead and not have it as an evil act if the person doesn't do it for evil ends. But some will surely disagree with me on this and I would expect them to.   The attacking of the summons? From the rules:  PvP is the act of a player attacking another player in any form.   * PvP is not allowed on Layonara except under the following two circumstances.  1. A GM supervises the PvP event. For this to occur there must be a valid, in character reason for the PvP, a GM must be contacted to request PvP (via a tell or the DM channel) and the GM must approve, and witness the PvP. All characters involved must be willing to engage in the PvP and must express this to the GM before PvP will be approved.  2. You are using the PvP Arena in Fort Velensk to RP sparring, training, or some other purpose. Deaths in the PvP Arena will incur no death penalties (see Death and The Layonara Death System Explained.)  * Do not attack characters, familiars, companions or summons. Doing so will result in a warning and in some cases a three day ban on the first occurrence. The second occurrence will be an instant ban from the server.
  found here : http://nwn.layonara.com/Player%20Rules#1

[Rayenoir]

Necromancy itself is not inherently evil.  Manipulation of negative energy to inflict wounds or induce fear, etc. is no more evil than hurling a burst of flame at another living creature or taking command of its mind to turn it against its allies.  However, the creation of undead using Animate Dead or any of the Create series is effectively warping and defiling either the remains or actual spirit of a dead person, and that is an evil act (in fact, the descriptor of these spells is Evil, so no good character should ever be casting them).  Good characters should not be pleased to see undead running about in their party.  Well, perhaps Chaotic Good at a stretch, as it can be considered a means to an end, but... it's a roleplay issue.  If you're running with people who are doing things your character doesn't approve of and refuse to change their actions, leaving them behind is really the easiest option.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

[Edit]Turns out this post is wrong, at least for Layo.[/Edit]

No, Ray, you're wrong on the creation of undead bit. All creating a zombie, skeleton, ghoul, ghast, etc. is, is taking dead flesh and pumping it full of negative energy. It doesn't involve the creature's original mind, soul, spirit, etc. at all.

The only necromancy that involves that are things like Trap The Soul and the creation of a Lich, Vampire, or other class-leveled undead.

You can have moderate sentience without a spirit... The meat of the brain will fire off the occasional neuron or two with all the negative energy coursing through it. After all, all life is, in D&D terms, is dead flesh pumped full of positive energy.

[Pankoki]

*Points to what Rayenoir said and the rules posted by Nyralotep*
  Necromancy is not evil, animating the dead is. Necromancy is not restricted to just animating the dead. Animating the dead is definitely not the actions of a good character.
  The rules Nyralotep pointed out stand. When a mage/cleric summons undead, they need to be able to stand up to the RP that will ensue such a summoning in the wrong party. Please try not to hide behind the PvP rules, and that statement goes for both summoner and attacker. If things get out of hand and combat is inevitable, then go to Velensk to settle the score, but don't attack people's summons outside of the Arena, no matter what your excuse is.  And I'm afraid that Rayenoir is right, and your statement on ghouls and zombies is incorrect Stephen.  Thanks.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Hm. Guess it works differently on Layo than in other campaigns. *He shrugs.* House Rules.

So, the process of animating the dead with negative energy involves using their spirits? How does this work on the long-dead whose spirits have gone on to the various afterlife planes? It would take a much, much higher-level spell to pull souls back from there.

[Pankoki]

Yep and that's why you have higher level undead summoning for clerics, case in point:
  Create Undead  
  Create Greater Undead
 
  Which are higher level clerical spells that rightfully bring higher level and more powerful undead beings into existence, and... needless to say, are quite nasty spells.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well, no, no, you said that the process for creating zombies and ghouls was dead-on with Ray's statements. Create Undead can, at its absolute lowest level, make a Ghoul. What about Zombies? They're low-level undead. Very low-level undead. It's arguable as to whether they should be attributed an INT score among my PnP group. Are Zombies just meat animated with negative energy, or do they use someone's soul, too? And, if so, shouldn't it be a stronger undead created in the process?

I can understand if it's seen as a defilement of the flesh; that's where the Evil descriptor comes in. But drawing the spirits of the dead back into the bodies... Seems like they'd have at least a modicum of free will, something a created undead doesn't have. Also, drawing the spirits from other planes of existance is a hefty act much more complicated than the end result of your typical zombie displays.

[ohboy007]

Heh ok, thanks for noone slamming me for my action and giveing me your opinons. Yes, different rules for different campains for the whole undead thing (I have heard both versions) so you just have to adapt as you come acrossed the changes. Yes all I want is a good rp experience and not trying to cause RL trouble. I understand the rules as they are stated above which means absolutly no summon killing. If I have this problem again I will leave with my peeps and if their any resulting feuds from a confrontation then I guess I will have to dice up my problems in the arena har! Thanks again.

[Pankoki]

I posted the two highest level undead creating spells, I should have posted also Animate Dead , which is the lowest level spell that creates undead and when a mage/cleric first gets it, it creates zombies.  
  The act is an evil act, not only because it defiles the flesh and all that as you mention it, but because it reanimates the being it was held in. Is it the soul being corrupted and brought back? Is it some sort of of corrupted manner of control over a person's spirit?
  Well that's something that can be left to interpretation and I don't think we need to get into nitty gritty details as to why something works. You're free to do so of course, but in the many years of doing this I've come to realize that it simply creates unnecessary headaches. So my advice is to simply take these spells as less than savoury ones that corrupt the corpse of an individual and do rather nasty things to their spirits, and move on.
  But since the question the thread brought up was addressed, I think any further discussion on an already tried topic is not really needed.

[lonnarin]

ohboy007 - 7/2/2006  9:50 PM

Yes Jareg follows a CN god of trickery,

Shadon?  All his summons are undead shadows... Watch out that you don't accidentally anger your own shadow-pope

[darkstorme]

Bear in mind that undead != evil in all cases.  Take baelnorns as an example, or ghosts/spectres of all sorts.

[Hellblazer]

Say using a m4 against someone to take lands is evil right? but if you are using it against someone that is trying to kill your wife is it still evil?  It is not what us use that is evil but the intention that is behind the use of it that determines if it is evil or not.

I'll give you an in game example.  The character Sonya Darkangel is a necromancer, and as such she has the power to raise the dead, but the reason that pushed her to follow this path was the urges to find her family.  Although, from your point of view she would be an evil person, her heart is good and it show in her everyday actions.  Hey she is even getting wed to a ranger who is in the good alignment.

[Acacea]

It's easy to use the surface "it's all in how you use it" argument, but in some cases the very act of things are intrinsically evil because of what they involve, particularly in fantasy worlds. Much like say, torturing a "bad" person, enslaving their spirit to use for good, and whipping them ten times a day while sleeping with their wives and killing their children. "It's for a good cause!" Sorry, there's not a whole lot of "good" in that. Same with some of the less than savory aspects of necromancy, if you ask me, though I used a totally unrelated example to make the point.

I'm not saying all of necromancy is evil no matter how it is used (my character is a Lucindite, that should make that clear), just that there are some acts (as already mentioned) that just don't belong in that "intentions" argument. Blanket generalizations don't really work for either side of the discussion.

[Hellblazer]

My point was not the cause but the fact that what you are using providing which alignment you have will determine the evilness or not of the summon. my example for that is, if your alignment was chaotic to true evil then your summons would probably attack anything villagers in sight, but if your alignment is the opposite your summon will not attack villagers as an example. Because as you summon anything it is from you and your magic, you could say that an imprint of you is in what you summon, thus if you are evil your summon will be evil, if you are good your summon will be good.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Okay, look. It boils down to this.

It is up to your character whether he or she thinks that necromancy is evil.

Allow me to repeat this. It has nothing to do with your own opinion whether or not your character sees necromancy of ANY flavor as evil.

Sure, I may know, as a player, that the zombie-raising necromancy is, as I said, nothing more than pumping a corpse full of negative energy. However, Lora Fearshield, one of my fighter characters, has no idea what goes into it, or what is done to the person/corpse. SHE thinks it is an intrinsically evil act to raise someone from the dead just to add them to your legion. I, as a slightly more open-minded fellow, disagree, but...

When it comes down to it, perception is key. It doesn't matter if Clinton did or did not "have sexual relations with that woman." It doesn't matter whether OJ really did off his wife. What matters is that everyone believes they did.

So whether a summons is evil or not, it is really immaterial. Evil is subjective in almost all cases.

[Hellblazer]

aye I agree with what Stephen just said and I thin I may have a solution in a way perception could be swayed.  As you raise an undead why not put some RP chanting in it and if you ware a good alignment make it sound as if vice versa for the evil.  As such it may help those who think that evil is an absolute when it comes to raising the dead.

[darkstorme]

What?  While in D&D rules, for zombies and ghouls and the like, the individual's spirit is not bound to the flesh, we've been told in Layo rules, every necromantic "raise the dead" spell tears their spirit free of whatever resting place it inhabits.  While a good Lich (a baelnorn), a good ghost, a good spectre, and so forth are possible, and a voluntary spirit might be found, I would argue that the act of tearing a soul, no matter how reprehensible, from its final rest,  has to be viewed as evil.

Sorry to disagree with you on this one, SZ, but Pankoki seems to suggest (though not explicitly) that negative energy merely provides the motive force - direction comes from the entrapped spirit of the recently departed.  (By that reasoning, how much better to destroy undead, then, freeing the souls enclosed in rotting, decaying flesh?)  While this isn't how the mechanics work in D&D (were it simply a matter of reanimating a corpse, I would have little objection; it's not the person anymore, so arguing "defilement is evil" is very much a grey area), it appears to be so in Layonara, so a good caster could not in good conscience ever cast a spell that would do that - barring perhaps tremendous extenuating circumstances (ie. Aragorn's employment of the doomed legion).

In that situation, if you RPed chanting a prayer to the dead, entreating them to take up flesh once more to aid you in your time of need.... maybe, just maybe.  But I can't imagine that being enclosed in putrefying flesh is a consummation devoutly to be wished.  As with torture, which may be necessary in extremity to garner information in a hurry, undead creation should not be an idle matter for a good-aligned caster; it should be a desperate, last-or-only-hope spell.

Generally, then, unless you commune with the dead and have their explicit permission, I'd have to say that under Layo rules (spirit powers the flesh - which only makes sense: when your spirit is fragmented by death, it needs to contemplate to return your body to its full vigour), creating undead is an unavoidably evil act.  They are not tools, they are entrapped souls, and no one appointed the caster in question as the judge of whether a soul deserves such punishment.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I'm curious as to L's point of view on the souls bit.