Brownie subrace ECL change request

[osxmallard]

Could consideration be given to remove the ECL-2 from the brownie subrace or make it an ECL-1 instead?

ECL per LORE is defined as "a way to compensate for the traits of the more powerful races. The average Drow, for example, has several powerful abilities that make them more powerful than Humans. To compensate for this, PnP use the concept of an ECL."

The brownies SR of 10 +2/2 levels could be considered a powerful ability.  However, the overall negative stat adjustment for brownies (ESA +2 DEX, -2 STR, -2 CON) make up for this by far and realistically the SR is so low it isn't going to stop much if anything.

A drow on the other hand is also an ECL-2 character and has an overall positive stat adjustment (ESA +2 INT, +2 CHA) in addition to the SR of 10 +1/level.

Same thing with Aasimar which is another ECL-2 character and has an overall positive stat adjustment (ESA +2 WIS, +2 CHA) in addition to natural resistances (5/- elemental).

Thanks!

[Dorganath]

Brownies were intended to be an RP-type race, and were not really meant to advance through levels as other, non-ECL races. While not "powerful" in some senses of the word (though arguably they could be quite strong if built properly), the point of making them ECL 2 is to try and keep them more in the realm of an RP character vs. a maximized lock-picker or whatever.

[Talan Va'lash]

osxmallard - 7/7/2006  4:16 AM  Could consideration be given to remove the ECL-2 from the brownie subrace or make it an ECL-1 instead?  ECL per LORE is defined as "a way to compensate for the traits of the more powerful races. The average Drow, for example, has several powerful abilities that make them more powerful than Humans. To compensate for this, PnP use the concept of an ECL."  The brownies SR of 10 +2/2 levels could be considered a powerful ability.  However, the overall negative stat adjustment for brownies (ESA +2 DEX, -2 STR, -2 CON) make up for this by far and realistically the SR is so low it isn't going to stop much if anything.  A drow on the other hand is also an ECL-2 character and has an overall positive stat adjustment (ESA +2 INT, +2 CHA) in addition to the SR of 10 +1/level.  Same thing with Aasimar which is another ECL-2 character and has an overall positive stat adjustment (ESA +2 WIS, +2 CHA) in addition to natural resistances (5/- elemental).  Thanks!

 
  Both drow and brownies have SR of 10 +2/2 levels. (making this change on lore)
 
  And 10 +2/2 levels is the same as 10 +1/level except its 1 higher at odd levels.
 
  . . 10 +2/2 . . . . 10 +1/1
  L1 | 12 . . . . . . . . . 11
  L2 | 12 . . . . . . . . . 12
  L3 | 14 . . . . . . . . . 13
 
  And so on.
 
  SR of 10 +2/2 levels is only 1 or 2 lower than a clerics spell SR at the same level (depending on whether you compare at an odd or even level.)
 
 

realistically the SR is so low it isn't going to stop much if anything

[/COLOR]
  *grins* I whole heartedly dispute this claim. In fact, it is the strongest part of the drow subrace (and my favourite
 
  Drow also get a -2 to attacks and universal saves when outside (or indoors) during daylight hours.
  imo I don't think the ECL 2 for brownies is unwarranted.
 
 

[osxmallard]

Dorganath said: Brownies were intended to be an RP-type race, and were not really meant to advance through levels as other, non-ECL races.

The ECL does not stop drow and aasimar from advancing the same way it does to brownies.  I do not understand the difference here... are drow and aasimar supposed to be RP races too?

I do understand your point about the old requirements where there were only allowed to be 4 approved on the server at any time.  But, I see a very high turnover rate with the brownies (and char deletion requests).  Why is this the case?  Searching LORE, people gave up on their brownie characters about the same point I am at now (around lvl 7-8).

Don't get me wrong, it IS a very fun character race to play especially when you are seen for the first time by people that have never seen one IG and can bring a lot of fun to a situation.

TV said: imo I don't think the ECL 2 for brownies is unwarranted.

I just feel the ECL unnecessarily restricts the ability of the character to do anything except sit in Hlint and RP (or sit anywhere and RP).  Since the character does not significantly improve the abilities of any party, it is less apt to even be asked to do anything except talk.

I think my frustration stems from the fact that it's just difficult to have a pure RP character.. sometimes you just need to rage.

Talan, I find it very interesting that you think that SR is significant for brownies and drow, even at the lower levels.  I guess I do not understand how SR works in the game and how it is calculated for a character to resist spells... it seems to me that I would be okay against something around the level of a goblin shaman or kobald healer and not much else.

Thanks for the replies Dorg and Talan!  

Side note:  Talan -- as a level 7 brownie I have a SR of 12.  Should it be a SR of 16?

[Reventage]

osxmallard - 7/9/2006  11:34 AM
Side note:  Talan -- as a level 7 brownie I have a SR of 12.  Should it be a SR of 16?

No, brownies have a different SR progression from the drow. They have 10 SR up to level 5 after which they gain +2 to SR on every odd level. Thus your character has the correct SR.

Talan Va'lash - 7/9/2006  9:30 AM
Both drow and brownies have SR of 10 +2/2 levels. (making this change on lore)

As to brownie SR this is incorrect but did you check with someone about the Drow SR? For the longest time it has been stated as 10+1/level though I think I remember hearing that the smallest SR increase the toolset allows is +2.

[Pen N Popper]

I'll add my thoughts since I am currently playing a brownie.
  The ECL for brownies, I had assumed, was to discourage people from choosing them as a race, thus limiting the number in the world. For other races, like half-giant, the ECL is warranted due to their destructive power in melee combat. That said, there's nothing that I can see that would prevent a brownie from being a mage equally as powerful as other non-ECL races, but certainly not more powerful. Perhaps I'm wrong, though, since I don't play those classes.
  Overall ECL is not fun and in the end works as intended: There are fewer PCs of these races at higher levels.
  If I made one suggestion, it might be to make the ECL slide with level: 1-10 ECL #, 11-15 ECL #-1, 16-20 ECL #-2, 21+ ECL 0. Thus a brownie at lvl 16 would have ECL 0,a half-giant a lvl 16 would have ECL 1.
  Brownies are scarce, as they should be. Orcs, half-ogres, goblins, wemics too are all scarce. Half-giant numbers seem to rise and fall. Only drow, in my opinion, are far too common but they probably balance out by higher levels.
  My vote: Leave it if the desired result is to have very few of these races. Slide it if you wish to have more high levels of these races. Get rid of it if you are willing to limit the number by hand through char submissions.
  The subracesare fun to have available.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

There's always the option to allow a feat to drop to ECL by 1, first available at Character Level 10, then again at every five levels. Add in race requirements, and there you go. Then a brownie would never be able to get below level adjustment 0, as it isn't one of the required races for the [Insert Spiffy Name] III feat.

[Talan Va'lash]

Oh yeah, brownies don't have 10 +2/2 SR its as Rev stated:
 

Spell Resistance (SR) 10 until level 5 then +2/2 levels

 http://nwn.layonara.com/Brownie
 
 
  The reason its +2/2 rather than +1/1 (even though its basically the same) i assume is so we only have to have 20 drow subrace skin items to cover levels 1-40 rather than 40 drow subrace skin items.
 
  It had been documented as 10 +1/1 for ages but thats incorrect (thats what I recently fixed on LORE.)
 
  Basically, with the SR as it is drow have an ~50% chance of resisting a spell from a caster of equal level, while brownies (at level 5+) have an ~25% chance of resisting a spell from a caster of equal level.
 
  Edit: The ECL also takes into account the confusion spell-like ability, which is the highest level spell like ability of any subrace on layo. If its DCs are figured in a reasonable way it is a strong ability.

[osxmallard]

I think the brownie confusion is DC-12.  Will need to check.

[Pen N Popper]

I think it is DC-useless... but then I'm not very good at using spells.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

The DC's low enough to be useless, aye... Any Mind spell with a DC lower than 16 generally is, unless you're up against a Rogue. *He winks.*