A Short Analysis on Levels and Layonara

[Chongo]

[SIZE=16]This data is courtesy SquareKnot from a program he runs off LORE.  It is not geared towards 100% accuracy nor did his intent serve any real motives other then interest.  Any opinions expressed in here are not necessarily shared by him.  It encompasses 120 days tracking the playtimes of every individual.  The data began on June 18 and finished October 16.  Now he provided data, and I did some basic spreadsheet math using it…math/ statistics was never my strong point, so I bet you can catch me off on a few things.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=16]And before any of this, here’s the golden rule for this topic!:[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=16]There is nothing in here that is mean or conflict-sparking in any way, shape or form.  It is written with the friendliest intent I have in me to discuss in a friendly manner.  I proofread it several times to make sure it was productive and above all written as a team player.  The golden rule on any PW is to be a team player.  So let’s talk to each other like we’re on the same team.  Fun fun.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=16]Notes:[/SIZE] [SIZE=16]120 Days = 2880 Hours = 1920 Waking Hours = 86 Work Day Equivalents    *Waking hours assuming 8 hours of sleep, work day assuming 8 hours 5 days a week [/SIZE][SIZE=16]All characters played less then 100 minutes over this time period were removed as inconsistent characters [/SIZE][SIZE=16]This tracks characters, not player logins [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16][SIZE=16][/SIZE] [SIZE=16]Average Time Played by Layonara Characters During this Time:  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]5202 minutes = 87 hours = 11 work days =  5% of waking hours[/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Highest Time Played by a Single Layonara Character During this Time: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]60675 minutes = 1011 hours = 126 work days = 53% of waking hours[/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Average Level of Characters Playing During this Time Period:   [/SIZE][SIZE=16]9.31[/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Number of Characters Playing Over 20,000 Minutes: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]58[/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Average Level of Characters Playing Over 20,000 Minutes: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]16.59[/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Number of Characters Playing Between 10,000 and 19,999 Minutes: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]71[/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Average Level of Characters Playing Between 10,000 and 19,999 Minutes: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]16.1[/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Number of Characters Playing Between  1,000 and 9,999 Minutes: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]343[/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Average Level of Characters Playing Between  1,000 and 9,999 Minutes: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]9.35 [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Alright.  So why am I posting this.  Well, mostly for community awareness.  I’m sure that the team is far more aware of these sorts of figures then I am, are better informed, and have discussions in place to think things over along these lines.  So it’s for community awareness so we better understand each other and maintain a big happy family.  If you run a search on the following keywords on the Layonara Forums: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          leveling [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          powerleveler [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          fast leveling [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          slow leveling [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          trouble leveling [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]You won’t be surprised at the results.  Levels are something that are of constant awareness in any large D&D based community.  And it’s awe-inspiring to watch the number of conflicts and concern that arise from the simple subject of levels. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]So, for the basis of this subject, I’m going to make a few statements regarded as fact: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          You can not control the real-time input any given player or character has [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          Real-time is not in anyway regulated in regard to game-time [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          Levels, leveling, or tangible character progression can not be proven to correlate with roleplay [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          That disparities exist in game-time invested and rate of progression that this data can not track [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The initial figures shown above don’t prove any real point, but they do illustrate a few things: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          The average level of characters investing more time in game is higher [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          The majority of Layonara characters are in game at the lower end of the playtime spectrum for the server [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          That over 58 characters were in game for over 4 hours per workday, and over 19% of their waking hours during the 120 days [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          That over 129 characters were in game for over 2 hours per workday, and over 9% of their waking hours during the 120 days [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]So there is an obvious connection between playing more and being higher level.  Now what this doesn’t point or, or try to point out, is any connection with fast leveling or playstyles inherent of people in any given spectrum.  People that are higher level on average play more hours, that’s all it’s showing.  As Dorg and I’m sure many others have said repeatedly in the past, it’s not how many hours you’re in game, it’s what you’re doing during those hours.  Nothing said here debates that and I wholeheartedly agree. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]What is important for the community to recognize is the massive disparity in how much people play.  Many characters are played 100 to 1,000 times as much as others that enjoy this server on a regular basis.  With such a massive spread in ability to be online, doing whatever it is you do, there is naturally going to be a curve that shows a faster rate of progression.  Every character online participates in events that yield experience.  Quests, killing monsters, crafting.  It is at the core of the D&D model.  With the assumption that the majority of the server progresses at around the same rate per hour online, there is of course going to be a valid problem with the real-time equivalents.  An example of this: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          Character A spends half of his time at a beloved campfire near Leilon with their would-be lover in an eternal debate on who is more lovely.  Character A spends the other half of their time adventuring in the Rift, their very favorite place to go on the server. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          Character B spends half of his time at a seldom visited tavern in Hurm with three of his good friends in an eternal debate of who yields foxier clerics, Ilsare or Xeen.  Character B spends the other half of his time adventuring around Milara’s gates, because he likes the thrill of 45 stacked epic traps in one square meter. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          Character A plays 20 hours a week [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          Character B plays 5 hours a week [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          In their adventuring, each character tends to gain a level every 100 hours of playing. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]In this scenario, which is fairly common except for the personalities, Character A is level 40 after 3.85 years.  Character B is level 40 after 15.38 years. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Granted, silly example to an extent, but it’s clear that there’s no real-world progression that is regulated in a standard NWN persistent world.  Outside the inevitable problem of varying playstyles, this is the most significant problem that rears its head in regard to what progression should require on Layonara.   [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Again, this is playstyles aside. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Now, some discussions of note that have circled around this subject should be mentioned here.  The following topics have a few tidbits here and there on systems they’ve seen, ideas they might have, general staff impressions on levels and rate of progression, and obviously a lot of opinion in both directions. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          [/SIZE][SIZE=16]http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=30786&posts=35&start=1[/SIZE] [/FONT][SIZE=16]-          [/SIZE][SIZE=16]http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=8115&posts=33&start=1[/SIZE] [/FONT][SIZE=16]-          [/SIZE][SIZE=16]http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=12258&posts=40&mid=71689&highlight=powergamers&highlightmode=1&action=search#M71689[/SIZE] [/FONT][SIZE=16]-          [/SIZE][SIZE=16]http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28298&posts=30&mid=179710&highlight=levelling&highlightmode=1&action=search#M179710[/SIZE] [/FONT][SIZE=16]-          [/SIZE][SIZE=16]http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28175&posts=1&start=1[/SIZE] [/FONT][SIZE=16]-          [/SIZE][SIZE=16]http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=27789&posts=12&mid=175890&highlight=levelling&highlightmode=1&action=search#M175890[/SIZE] [/FONT][SIZE=16]-          [/SIZE][SIZE=16]http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=13713&posts=12&mid=80489&highlight=levelling&highlightmode=1&action=search#M80489[/SIZE] [/FONT][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]So with all the ideas presented on this issue, and the many problems players have with it, what is the appropriate course of action in order to keep everyone happy?  You’ll note in these topics linked above, that the ideas go in all directions.  Some want things to speed up, some want things to slow down, some want defined rules, some think that it all lies in the players hands, some want regulated real-time based leveling, others think time investment is the only factor.  It goes all over the place.[/SIZE][SIZE=16][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=16][SIZE=16]  [SIZE=16]In my head, if progression is a concern to the community and the founders of this world, then a few contributing aspects could be entertained.  Everything above this was pretty much collected data to present to the community.  Everything below here are ideas I’ve heard or seen elsewhere or ones I’ve hatched on my own or with a few others.  So in other words, it’s just my opinion.  While I’m sure the staff is 22 steps ahead of me on these thoughts, maybe there’s something good in here, maybe not. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Curbing the Problems with Varying Playstyle: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]I’m going to address playstyle here without any real backup from any of the data above.  I was able to pick out a few examples of extremes on playstyle from the data, but it’s definitely not suitable to be posting about.  Suffice it to say that there are some individuals playing wild hours on here that level extremely slow, and some that play minimal hours that level fairly fast.  Likewise there are some that play wild hours that level quite fast.  The examples are limited, but they’re there.  Quite honestly, it’s not an intention here to point out right or wrong on that.  People play as they will and either integrate into the world or fade out, by their own hand or the community’s. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Right now, there seem to be both objective and subjective measures in place for the staff to evaluate.  LORE probably enables staff to objectively see the average real time and game time rate of progression for characters and can probably see the red flags.  GM’s can notice playstyles not in the spirit of the server and deal with it on an individual and more subjective basis. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]I don’t think anyone is ever really going to be able to define an exact playstyle where you should invest x hours towards this and x hours towards that.  In the few lessons I’ve learned, the magic rule is to add value to the world.  However you’re adding value, you’re probably doing it right.   [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]What I think is a deficit to the GM team is that they end up having to deal with this instead of having programs in place to define rates of progression that don’t adhere to the desirable playstyle.  This question mark also causes the playerbase to inherently distrust or be predisposed towards anyone who progresses ‘too quickly’. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Possible Solutions: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Orb Monitor [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=16]      o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]This system was successfully implemented on one gameworld I played on       o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]An inventory item or some sort of script tracks the player xp accrual as they are out adventuring       o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The orb is set to turn off xp accrual after x amount of experience is gained       o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The clock on the orb is perpetual, so slow adventuring will never hit that cap as the time counter is progressing faster then xp accrual       o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The orb then tracks a period of time where xp accrual is turned off, and after x amount of time, it allows experience to be gained again.       o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]In this particular system, the orb recognized ‘dead time’, or when the player had effectively sat in a corner to wait out the timeframe.  Thus you couldn’t just go out for lunch while the xp counter reset.       o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Players could continue doing whatever they felt like doing, including killing creatures, but xp would be turned off after that progression ceiling was hit.              §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Positives:                       ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Adventures designed solely for xp accrual at the maximum rate are effectively eliminated                       ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Abusive playstyles and powerleveling are mostly eliminated and the bar for what constitutes abusive is defined by the team                       ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Everyone’s on the same sheet of music for what their time investment yields as a percentage, regardless of playstyle                       ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The actual perception of adventure is reset, and people begin to pace for maximum enjoyment, as opposed to gain, since the benefit of ‘raging’ is no longer there.  The mentality is completely reset to do what is the most fun outside of simple experience gain.  Things tend to slow down and people play for the right reasons and in good spirit.                       ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The system can make sense in a roleplayed aspect.  “I’ve been at this too long, killing the same creature over and over, I’m tired, I’m doing the same thing over and over again, I’m not learning a darn thing”.              §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Negatives:                       ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Someone will always figure out a way to abuse this.  Such as taking a piece of chewing gum, splitting it in half after chewing it, sticking the pieces on the ‘w’ and ‘d’ keys, balancing two pencils in the gum, and weighting the keys with a leaning bag of potato chips balanced on the pencils, and having their character remain ‘moving’ as the character now runs in a circle that doesn’t allow the orb to recognize they’re away from the computer and outside mowing the lawn.  You just can’t stop people from doing exploitative things.  They get crazier and crazier.                       ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Workload to implement                       ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Implications of server strain with the scripts running [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Red Flagging [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=16]     o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Simply using the database already designed to calculate the xp per hour gained on each character and pinpointing abusive playstyles from this.  I’m betting it’s already done since LORE exists.             §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Positives:                      ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Uses existing programs to monitor this.  Less work             §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Negatives:                      ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Requires staff discussion, GM involvement and time, and the hassle of dealing with players and making judgment calls                      ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The community isn’t aware of who’s doing right and wrong, so playstyle speculation continues. [/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Curbing the Problems of Varying Time Investment: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]There are two schools on Layonara.  One school believes that the real-time calendar should dictate a rough medium for level progression.  The other school believes that your hourly investment should dictate a rough medium for level progression.  And obviously there are those that think it’s a mix.  I’ve seen the staff lean in both directions, and this is the single greatest object of angst on PW’s that I’ve seen.  It certainly isn’t crippling in any way, but it creates angst. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]I think some rough decision should be made in one direction or the other.  Real-time or game-time.  Or at least something everyone can read to strike a balance. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]There are arguments for both. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Real-time arguments: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          You have character level jumps that just don’t allow enough time to settle into the world enough to make that higher level presence apparent [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          There is no possible way to immerse a character gaining high levels within a few months as they will not have major quest-based impact [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          Characters that don’t make their mark over an extended period of real world time won’t make enough of an impact on the generations of characters and should not be perceived as ‘epic’ or important due to level [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          The majority of players on Layonara invest a lower number of hours to the game, and consequently the world should be geared towards a progression rate that flows with the status quo. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          The game calendar exists, events are changing the world on the timescale of the world calendar.  It is unrealistic and a detriment to the world to have people defying this with rapid advancement into the realm of the epic. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Game-time arguments: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          If I put in half my life to playing this game, I should be getting more then the person who plays one day a week. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          That individuals do value what they earn, and do not feel that their investment should be ‘taxed’ more to meet the status quo of those investing less.  Some individuals would compare this to ‘communism’.  Hooray for capitalism! [/SIZE][SIZE=16]-          Game mechanics allow a certain progression that defies any regulatory measure.  Even with the best playstyle and most contributing attitude ingame, the amount of experience given is far too great to play the game with any adventure given my time investment. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]I actually agree with almost all these points, which is why this topic is so riddled with confusion.  The world flow should be maintained, but at the same time there’s no way to compare these time investments.  So where to go?   [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Right now I would contend that the world is entirely game-time investment based.  There are no stoppers or blocks in place to control progression rate.  The only thing that balances towards real-time is GM action towards individuals progressing too quickly.  The problem arising here is the subjective reaction of GM’s and players.  The majority of us don’t have figures in front of us to see, nor can we see what a player is doing 100% of their time online.  What we get are soundbytes or random clips that we form our opinion off of.  A 10 minute evaluation on what a player or group of players is doing can sometimes become a basis for all opinion on that individual when coupled with a quick glance at how quickly they have leveled.  Adversely, the opposite is true.  An individual can become overly praised for that random clip and a quick glance at how slowly they’ve leveled.  I personally feel stung when a generic negative opinion is formed about me as a player due to a soundbyte or an uninformed glance at rate of progression.  Maybe a real-time-based system would keep more peace and help the world on the whole to maintain the flow of events more naturally. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Possible Real-time Based Solutions: [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Some of these ideas have been entertained by others, some seen on other servers, some I’ve hatched.  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Leveling Blocks [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=16]     o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Like we had at the epic block scale, you put massive level gaps at given level intervals, like 5, 10, 15, 20, etc.             §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Positives:  None that I can see             §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Negatives: This doesn’t really stop rate of progression by itself, and if it reverted to the GM system of passing into the next stage, it would require far too much GM work and interaction.  Very little bang for buck given the workload.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[/SIZE][/FONT]  [SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][SIZE=16]Guild Based or Community  Based Progression Blocks [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=16]     o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Form logical communities of characters to pass individuals into their next stage, let’s just say level blocks of 5 for now.      o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The community can be made up of similarly based PC’s.  This could branch off class, race, locale, anything that ties a population together.  For example, a mages guild, or a dwarven clan, or the citizens of a given kingdom.  Any sort of logical community.      o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]A character would be passed by that community council to advance in their training.  This could be forum based if in-game events were too difficult to organize.  That said, in-game events would be very exciting and would promote great roleplay events if these communities had rites of passage.  It would create excitement on gaining that passage, and promote a linked and healthy community.  Or a mix could occur, with lesser events or passages being a forum affair, while big jumps like level 10 to 11 or 20 to 21 could be a small event.      o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Ultimate oversight of this all could be GM based or WL based to confirm fair practice of this.      o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The decisions for rejecting or accepting passage could base on several factors, where the entire given community could see how much the player was playing, how long they’d been on the world, how they’d added value to the world, what events they’d played a role in, etc.             §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Positives:                     ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Community building and character awareness                     ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Little to no strain on GM workload once system was up and running                     ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Building healthy and sustainable communities would ensure an overall workload that would not place strain on people’s game-time                     ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Roleplay opportunities within these communities would add a lot of value in providing another medium to circle events around                     ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Natural community opinion would keep the overall peace for the majority of the server and provide a ‘natural selection’ to a certain extent                     ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The limitations on those players investing massive amounts of time into the game would be buffered by the natural desire to be a part of that given community and add value regardless of their status within            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Negatives:                     ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Significant shift in game for staff to implement                     ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Cliques inherent of the communities                     ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Unfair practices or blacklisting internal to the communities[/SIZE][/FONT]
  [SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Trainer Orbs [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=16]     o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Gaining a level requires a task or event completion      o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The staff sets general time limits on progressing at each level.  The given example with this suggestion was from an old server, this could be adapted to meet the general goals of Layonara, or the system could be set more flexibly for evaluation by the task giver:            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Levels 1-3 no limit            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Levels 4-6 every 2 days            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Levels 7-9 once a week            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Levels 10+ once a month      o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Task is set by a trainer, a WL type character.  The character completes the task and gets their orb click which allows them to progress to the next level.      o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Trainers go to GM’s or another trainer for their progression.            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Positives:                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Tasks create roleplay opportunities and a connection with a WL type character that is entrusted by the GM team and consequently represents a model for playstyle.  That type of interaction breeds community.                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Relatively low impact program as far as staff workload or world changes go            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Negatives:                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Reliability of trainers or their availability causing strain on those individuals in actually playing the game as they’d intended to play                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Limited supply of trainers creates a second tier GM team which will develop the same supply/demand/oversight problems that faces all groups that oversee a general population                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Favoritism possible [/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][/FONT]
  [SIZE=16]Casual Player Plus-ups as per PenNPopper’s suggestion:  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=30786&posts=35&start=1[/SIZE] [/FONT][SIZE=16]     o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]This system buffers casual players to keep up with status quo of server            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Positives:                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Allows casual players to maintain some progression in the world and see new things with gained levels                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]System could be adapted to meet needs of GM progression goals                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Players that choose not to adventure often or attend quests could still progress            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Negatives:                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Automatic level gains increase rate of leveling overall in community                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Assumption of the rule that playtime investment does not speak to aptitude towards roleplay or value added to the server                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Community backlash for not making fair consideration to player investment                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]GM workload                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]As per Pankoki’s response in that post[/SIZE][/FONT]
  [SIZE=16] [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Rules [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=16]     o        [/SIZE][SIZE=16]The Layonara Team defines exact timelines expected for level advancement for each level bracket.  These timelines are based on real world time, so that x number of days must pass during x to y level progression.            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Positives                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]World flow is maintained                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Everyone’s on the same sheet of music and no opinions can be formed based on leveling            §         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Negatives                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]System integration and workload of moderation                   ·         [/SIZE][SIZE=16]Possible backlash or loss of interest due to lack of return on investment for varying playtimes.  That said, there could be a flex-plan associated with this that would track character playtimes via the LORE DB and provide some sort of equation that would allow for some degree of time advancement based on a player time investment above the status quo. [/SIZE][SIZE=16] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[/FONT][SIZE=16][SIZE=16]  [SIZE=16]Anyhow, hopefully I did justice to people who’d provided suggestions in the past on this topic.  Moreover, hopefully the data at the top here provided some insight into the major differences in how much people play this game.  It’s important to know so that conclusions aren’t jumped to. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  [/SIZE][SIZE=16]And lastly, I truly hope this was productive.  I know the staff and GM team is miles ahead of me with ideas like these, but the original intent was community awareness so we can maintain the big happy family atmosphere that Layonara has done a great job maintaining. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]  Fun fun, and thanks for reading.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]

[Chongo]

And yes, I'm terrible at converting a word document into posts.  Sorry.  

[Grid Blader]

you put alot of time and effort in to this.

[Tobias]

I never saw a problem with with the things are now.  *shrugs*  That is me though.  

Since my three years here I have seen this alot, people "duscussing" about lvling  and really is there any fair way? I don't see it and with your post of positives and negatives proves  that there isn't any fair way.

Most people do not have time to go on quest or live in the wrong time zone.  So the resort to Rp'ing a little and adventuring alot.  I have always felt that you can  have a good time Rping and adventuring.  

 It is up to the players to watch what they are doing. Not the GM's. Most have stuck to the spirit of the community and RP their butts off and in time they do get rewarded for it.  The GM's and L are doiing all they can (taking in there free time mind you) and trying to make this play enjoyable for the people that play 9 hours a week to those that play 9 hours a day.

People have different lifestyles and Layonara I think fits all of them. People come here and in a month time know what they have stepped into. This is a RP community but as a community that knows this is a game and half the fun of a game is also fighting, taking that risk in battle.

I know that part of this gmae is lvling and will not say that there is more to it because I would sound like a *edit* because I have two lvl 20 chars.  But put the time that you can in to this game and do not get worked up if some one jumps 17 lvls in a months time. that he/she is not a great Rp'er  or that a lvl 7 player that has been here for 2 years is weak a useless.  

just my two cents

[Yllyrryon]

At it's core, this and related issues involve players looking at other players and feeling jealous or deprived in some way - i.e., "Player B has all these great items and I don't have any; Player C gets to spend x hours on the server but because of my job I can't even spend one-fourth of that time." It is human nature to be aware of others and compare oneself to them in some way; comparing each others' characters and in-game experience is merely an extension of that in this community.
  No one here candeny that leveling theircharacters and getting loot is not a significant aspect of their over all experience in Layo, to some degree, which in turn is based on personal preference.But to place limits on this activity is simply draconian and, in my opinion, intolerable.The present system works well in this regard.In your post, above, Chongo, younoted statistics compiled by a program used here. The gm's have this and other informationregarding game play; and almost around the clock, some gm isin-game some where watching us do what we do. If powergaming is an issue with any playerwhohas a high level character and seeks World Leader status - I have no doubt that issue would be raised and considered in that application process -perhaps even as a basis for denyingtheWlcdq privilege if that player had taken it too far.
  This leads into my next point, that this balance between gaming and roleplaying is a personal choice that cannot be defined by formulaeand enforced by rules. To do so would be overkill; to do so would be wrong and would likely stifle the community. Each player must make this choice for herself or himself - and it's a personal decision that cannot be infringed upon. However, the Team is not blind to abuses, and I am sure they take action if they perceive some one has gone too far. Recently I began organizing expeditions on East. At first, joining these was based on role play alone. But the team did an excellent job of calling to my attention their concerns regarding the level of characters who participated - and educating me on what they deemed proper. I cite this example for two reasons. First, the Team is aware of this issue and is not passive regarding it; we simply don't hear about all that they do.
  Secondly, I, myself, am one of these players who spends a great deal of time on Layo. This is my own life decision based on rl factors that allow me to do this.I would be deeply concerned if any of these superficial constraints were place upon me. Since I am devoted to the Layo community, I would "give it a try", staying in Layo for a while to see how such a system works. But at the same time, because I feel strongly enough that such rules area needlessly superficial overkill, I would begin my search for another server.
  Respectfully,
  Yllyrryon

[Eight-Bit]

Ket, you're a critical thinker. I read that a few times. I really hope the Team is able to get a lot out of this.

Three cheers, ye ugly git!

[SuperMunch]

I like shorter posts, you lost me somewhere between line 1 and 2, I skimmed the rest and just read 8bit's reply.  

I'll try to read it this weekend or next week.

[OneST8]

While LORE itself does not provide us with all the information at this time, orth does periodically compile some interesting statistics from the world server db and these are used in GM discussions regarding world-balancing issues.

A future feature of LORE will be per-character statistics presented in some graph-table-form (plotted charts, pie graphs, whatever makes sense to represent the data). A couple more general stat index pages would be included to provide the "bigger picture" views of the Layonara community as a whole.

While I cannot forecast when these features will be implemented, at least I can say that "it's on the list of cool things to do"!

Edit: I just want to clarify that there are no plans for massive re-balancing or any world-system paradigm shifts in-game. As Yllyrryon stated above, the current system does work [to at the least an acceptable degree] with minimal complexity and server overhead.

[Yllyrryon]

Well. As you saw above, I feel strongly about this. And I'll raise my hand here, I am a player who, when I prioritize it, can put alot of time into the game to advance my character in level, both thru adventuring in areas and questing. But I'm always roleplaying as well and developing my character.
  One point for making this additional post at this time: I predict that in this debate, the lines will materialize primarily between interest groups: 1. those of us who are willing and able to put timeas much time into the game aswe do - and as a result, our characters advance more rapidly than others; 2. thosewithwhom this (namely, thepersonal choices of group 1, which in turn areportrayed by some as power gaming, etc) is an issue, and who now are seeking to limit the choices of group 1.
  Secondly, I doubt any of those in the second group will come forward and state their motives, examples of which I provided in my postabove. Earnestly, I hope I'm proved wrong on this point. The motives are clear: "These others have something I don't; these others can do something I can't; so lets try to limit them through these rules we propose."
  Third. I trust in the fairness of Leanthar and the Team. Regardless of whether anychange arises from this, likely we will hear about the reasoning behind it and everyone will feel they have been treated fairly.
  Fourth, you can't use rules to force roleplay. Heres an excerpt of points I made in a recent tell discussion in-game:
 

Ael Rynthien : [Tell] next thing you know they will be combing thru our inventories removing stuff under some rule that you can only get one item of such and such power per month Ael Rynthien : [Tell] all they need to do with people like... is tell them they are power leveling and start deducting xp ...[Tell] easier said then done, L wants to have clear rules for everything Ael Rynthien : [Tell] i mean...we have enough rules....and we're getting close to overkill here Ael Rynthien : [Tell] i understand L's point...but we're getting close to overkill if such rules are adopted Ael Rynthien : [Tell] if i'm willing to spend 80 hours per week thru the end of the year so i get to max level it's my prerogative.....my reputation in the community would be affected....and i honestly think the team would step in to get me back on the right track (emphasis added) Ael Rynthien : [Tell] what i'm saying is that the system we have works...the gm's are on top of this and won't let any abuses happen
  ...
  Ael Rynthien : [Tell] well....ael is high enough this will have marginal impact on me.....but one my real life areas of expertise is Economics....a fundamental premise is that laws/rules at best modify behavior....never can they force a specific outcome (emphasis added) ...
  [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Oct 20 20:01:05] Ael Rynthien : [Tell] so....people will continue adventuring as they are to get tons of loot and gold....spend tons of time crafting to become master crafters [CHAT WINDOW TEXT] [Fri Oct 20 20:01:22] Ael Rynthien : [Tell] you can't force rp

 Fifth. Regarding the remark in my quote about 80 hour weeks in-game and my reputation. Part of the present system involves intangible reinforcement-for instance, most of us value our reputation in the community, what other players think about us. Add to this what I've already said about the great work the Team does behind the scenes. The system works as it is.
  Sixth. I reiterate my remark in the quote above that rules will only modify behavior. Realistically, under a leveling limitations scheme, peoples' "gaming instincts" will merely be redirected into getting tons of gold and loot, and becoming master craftsworkers. You can't force roleplay.
  Seventh. Personally, I learned from the "drow problem" thread to make my voice heard when any issue like this arises. I held my breath while I read through the new rules for drow for the next Layo version. But I was happy with how that issue was addressed there. So I emphasize what I've stated elsewhere: I have confidence that L and the Team will fairly consider everything constructive that is offered here. Any changes will be fair and well explained. And this will be yet another growing experience for our comminity, making Layo an even better place to be.

[Talan Va'lash]

Yllyrryon - 10/20/2006  9:47 PM
Regarding the remark in my quote about 80 hour weeks in-game and my reputation.  Part of the present system involves intangible reinforcement - for instance, most of us value our reputation in the community, what other players think about us.

Every culture places negative sanctions upon members that engage in behaviour that the culture defines as deviant.

However, heh, many of the negative sanctions that are given out are in the form of dirty looks and body language which are absent in this medium.

----

I do not think any additional systems for -limiting- attainable xp/time ratios are neccessary at this time (regardless of whether its game time or RL time.)

However, I -do- think that a way to reward non-bashing playstyles is neccessary. I think the system that I summarized briefly in PnP's thread (chongo linked to it above so I'll refrain from doing so again) is a good way to do this, as it does not allow the timed xp system and the bashing xp system to "stack" as it were.

Not having a system like this, I've seen, over the years, the people that get frusterated and leave about the leveling issue are some of the best RPers and often those that don't care to spend their game time in a way that may minimize their RP time even if they want to gain levels and that is the only way. Ironically, this is the play style that is supposed to be the goal of Layonara, insomuch as to say that RP is valued higher than xp for xp's sake.

Since this issue has come up so prominently lately (differing playing styles) one of the things I've been trying to do with my GM time (which is fairly limited right now) is to reward xp to characters who I see exhibiting a low-xp playstyle along with good RP. However, even if my time weren't as limited as it is now, I would not be able to get everyone that deserves such rewards nor would I be able to do it 100% evenly/fairly simply because of the times of day I am able to be on, and that I just can't be on at other times of day.

Support TV and his campaign to put his XP wand where his mouth is... or something.

[lonnarin]

Well, I've been registered over two years now, 10/08/04 and it never ceases to amaze me how folk here half the time I've been complain loudest about other people being too fast of a powerleveller.  Honestly, as one who cares more about the road than the destination, such people shouldn't bother them so much, with their steweing and their green eyes of envy.  If somebody levels quickly, good for them, bravo.  Usually it means they get bored with the server and leave shortly thereafter.  Now those with staying power who keep trucking it after level 24 or 25... all the power to them.  Just don't any of them scowl at me for helping newcomers with their intro Hlint quests and getting them orientated the 1st few weeks.  I did the same for them less than a year ago, and oh how quickly they forget how it was somehow ok for their characters then, while now with other characters its some big fuss.  How do fast levelling characters affect you, the player?  Not a heckofalot, if you're enlightnened enough to just have fun for its own sake.  That's why I have a lvl 18 after two years, and a lvl 9, 10, 11, 13.  I just like playing with people in general and helping others out getting accustomed to the world instead of crunching xp.  That's just me though.  If I'm not worried about others levelling faster than me; I'm too busy having fun.

Honestly the best move on this server in a long time was seperating world leader status from just being above lvl 21.  If somebody wants to be a super-powerful hermit off by themselves and not get involved too much in the plot, all the power to them.  If somebody wants political character status and prestige, then they can submit for that when the time comes.  It cut out a whole lot of frazzled lvl 20s waiting months and months and MONTHS for their ECDQs while everybody and their mother was flooding the request threads with minor CDQs just to take a class.  Such mandatory stipulations had the GM workforce spread too thin, to the frustration of the common player.

[Ar7]

I am a firm believer in two things, based on them I fully agree with Yllyrryon about the raised issues.

A) People should receive only what they have earned!

If a person can dedicate more time to play online it is only just that he receives more benefits, denying this or resticting this ability would cause many players to leave. People play to gain, to win so to say, if you continually restrict their ability to "win" you cause the game to loose its purpose and appeal.

Based on this I disagree with all sorts of Xp restrictions or system which allow people to level without actually playing.

B) Normative rules make matters only worse!

The most efficient rules are the non enforced ones. When people themselves are interested in regulating the world, those are the so called bad looks and question like "How did you level so fast?" They actually do work, people get shunned if they are labelled a powergamer and as such try to avoid abusive behaviour on their own.

If you apply a bunch of enforced normative rules then the people will simply find ways to avoid them, as it is not in their interest to follow the said rules. So this will result in a number of conflicts and a large number of tied up GMs, who instead could be running quests.

It is true what has been said earlier, the system we have now works. People are quite aware of what happens in the world and they regulate themselves while playing, I mean how many powerlevelers are there actually? The same thing can be said in regards to those struggling to get passed a certain level. They are exceptions and there always will be exceptions, enforcing a number of restrictive rules only based on these exceptions is a wrong course.

[jan]

lonnarin - 10/21/2006  10:39 AM


Honestly the best move on this server in a long time was seperating world leader status from just being above lvl 21.  If somebody wants to be a super-powerful hermit off by themselves and not get involved too much in the plot, all the power to them.  If somebody wants political character status and prestige, then they can submit for that when the time comes.  It cut out a whole lot of frazzled lvl 20s waiting months and months and MONTHS for their ECDQs while everybody and their mother was flooding the request threads with minor CDQs just to take a class.  Such mandatory stipulations had the GM workforce spread too thin, to the frustration of the common player.

The seperation was probably one of the good things ,but has a big disadvantage the way it works in the comunity now.
I'll explain :
The same powerleveller that doesnt care about the plot on their way to lvll 20 and up DOES take up the place of a player that does care about that in the quests for example .
I never heard or saw any dm telling a powerleveller that he/she couldnt come along because the plot clearly didnt interest them before .
This ofcourse results in throwing dice and disapointment to players that have taken an interested in the quests.
I think that the system works ,but also know that players ( with lots of help from others ) DO powerlevell and get advantages that way that are NOT fair to others .
Layonara in my eyes was set up to be a rp comunity and strives for teamwork .
Going out alone doesnt ( for most ) give you the ability to get higher lvll's fast simply because ALONE your not strong enough to kill alot.
Therefore the problem doesnt lie with the powerleveller alone,it also lies with the players that take then ( yes TAKE THEM) along and allow them to harvest experiance.
This behavior isnt treated the same for all players ( that is my impresion and NOT aimed at anyone)
I can recall running around central with a sea elf that couldnt talk common ,my character took her along and while we travelt tried to teach her that ,this resulted in her levelling fast to lvll 12 and she got reprimanded and the char even disapeared for a while because of the "powerlevelling"sticker that the player got pinned on.
On the other hand i see characters that levell fast and never get talked too( or dont respond to those talks) .
Makes you ( ME in any case) wonder if all are treated the same or that there are people that simply avoid the times there are lots of dm's on to pull this off .
I read above how Ael talked about his expeditions east and the REPRIMAND we got for having lowlevell characters along( i might add that NONE of the characters leaned back and ALL did a marvelous job on the trip)
Just a few weeks after we were reprimanded a dm writes out a quest on east and for that quest lowers the rules for lvll's on east .(lvll 13 and up)
We were told that under lvll 17 you shouldnt be on east (with good rp the lower lvlls we had along :cleric lvll14 and cleric lvll 15 i think could go to east once in a three weeks timeframe RL if i remember correctly)
To me it gets weird if the rules are changed at will by others,specialy if the one changing the rules is one of those that spoke to our group and told us it was NOT right to take along those lowerlevells.

I know that all the dm's do a lot of work and that the team as a whole gives us a lot of time (unpayed) to develop this world and giving us a wonderfull place to play in and we cant thank them enough for that.
 All i( and others ) are asking is that the rules are made clear for ALL the players and implemented for ALL the characters out there.
Maybe a way could be found to eliminate powerlevellers from participating in quest , leaving more room for the people that do spend hours trying to find out what is happening in the world and express their concerns about it in char in talks with others .( with others i mean lots of diferent players and NOT the few you go out with on a dayly base)
For those of us that seem to live in the wrong timezone it gets quite annoying to see characters you never even met before take in the space you could have on a quest simply because they are lucky with the dice.

[s0ulz]

Ar7 - 10/21/2006  12:40 PM

I am a firm believer in two things, based on them I fully agree with Yllyrryon about the raised issues.

A) People should receive only what they have earned!

If a person can dedicate more time to play online it is only just that he receives more benefits, denying this or resticting this ability would cause many players to leave. People play to gain, to win so to say, if you continually restrict their ability to "win" you cause the game to loose its purpose and appeal.

Based on this I disagree with all sorts of Xp restrictions or system which allow people to level without actually playing.

B) Normative rules make matters only worse!

The most efficient rules are the non enforced ones. When people themselves are interested in regulating the world, those are the so called bad looks and question like "How did you level so fast?" They actually do work, people get shunned if they are labelled a powergamer and as such try to avoid abusive behaviour on their own.

If you apply a bunch of enforced normative rules then the people will simply find ways to avoid them, as it is not in their interest to follow the said rules. So this will result in a number of conflicts and a large number of tied up GMs, who instead could be running quests.

It is true what has been said earlier, the system we have now works. People are quite aware of what happens in the world and they regulate themselves while playing, I mean how many powerlevelers are there actually? The same thing can be said in regards to those struggling to get passed a certain level. They are exceptions and there always will be exceptions, enforcing a number of restrictive rules only based on these exceptions is a wrong course.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Leanthar]

"...Just a few weeks after we were reprimanded a dm writes out a quest on east and for that quest lowers the rules for lvll's on east .(lvll 13 and up)...."

Come on now Jan. You know that when GM's run quests we need to use servers that have specific areas that meet with that given quest. NwN modules/servers are limited in area/module size (totally understandable) and as such we need to use what we have on any given server. If you want to tie our hands about having xyz levels on abc server during GM run events/quests I can guarantee you that the quests that are run will quit being as imaginative and enjoyable as they are at this time. That is getting a little out of hand and is clearly being nit-picky because you feel like you (or your friends or whatever) are being picked on, sorry you feel that way as it is not the case.

When we run quests we are asked by the community to not limit it to specific levels, to allow everybody to attend, to spread it out across servers so that there is less lag, use the servers/areas to add spice/variety, use the quests/events to show other parts of the world, help new players, help everyday players, help high level players—and then we are asked for exactly the opposite of all I stated here by others in the community. There is a ton of criteria we try to work within on gm run events, I am sorry you do not feel that we are doing it the way you think we should but the team does the best with what we have.

[jan]

Leanthar - 10/21/2006  4:16 PM

"...Just a few weeks after we were reprimanded a dm writes out a quest on east and for that quest lowers the rules for lvll's on east .(lvll 13 and up)...."

Come on now Jan. You know that when GM's run quests we need to use servers that have specific areas that meet with that given quest. NwN modules/servers are limited in area/module size (totally understandable) and as such we need to use what we have on any given server. If you want to tie our hands about having xyz levels on abc server during GM run events/quests I can guarantee you that the quests that are run will quit being as imaginative and enjoyable as they are at this time. That is getting a little out of hand and is clearly being nit-picky because you feel like you (or your friends or whatever) are being picked on, sorry you feel that way as it is not the case.

 .

As i am a complete nerd concerning computers i didnt know the limitations that the servers have and that therefor the dm's need to use different servers for their quests,so sorry for that .
I used this example because it was the first that came to mind and i think that without examples you cant argue about things clearly because it clears up the kind of things you mean.
The complete post was more about the limiting the fastlevellers and the illusion that i have( dont know about others so cant speak for them )about the rules differently implied for different characters.
When i entered the marvelous world the team has created i accepted the rules that are in place and tried to live up to those rules as good as i can .
Seeing others ignoring those rules for parts and seeing that the team doesnt have time to act on everything concearning that,(understandable when i try to imagen the workload) sometimes gets on my nerves and i try to explain that in posts that express that,doing my best staying away from using names and events (failing in that sometimes and i'm sorry for that) .
I have accepted a long time ago that i'm in a wrong timezone for the bulk of the quests run and tried to work around that rping a lot with other characters ,helping them set up things and showing them around .
I found my pleasure in that and realy dont mind if i cant get into quests that are "worldchanging"with out loosing too much sleep.
How ever , that doesnt mean that i dont have my thoughts about things and try to think with the rest of the players and the team about improvements .

Been put in my place again ( and rightly so) about the things i dont have an idear about how they work ,i still think that the people who levell faster then normaly possible should be penelised in some way ( or turn it around and say that those who do it in the way that was mend when the world was set up should be rewarded for that).
The time on line does explain a little bit about people levelling fast but it isnt the main reason they levell , its the people that give them the chance to go to places they get much exp that explains that.( ofcourse i understand that friends help eachother out with their new characters, but they should do that with another lowlevell char instead of their highlevell one)
Turning them away for quests and in that way prevent them from taking places that rightfully should go to others that play in the spirit of the wolrd seems to me a nice way to show the bulk of the players that it is beeing watched and is worked on .
As this is another idear from someone that doesnt have insight in how things on computers work , i dont have a clou if this is even possible .
But i think that with common sence we all can tell who is powerlevelling and who isnt .
Just my thoughts on things .

Jan

[jrizz]

Holy cow
Highest Time Played by a Single Layonara Character During this Time:
60675 minutes = 1011 hours = 126 work days = 53% of waking hours
whoever this is..... fast leveling is the least of their issues. I hope it was not me

By the way I just wanted to say that at least 4 times in the recent past I have recieved XP for good RP. Having the WLs and GMs out there rewarding good RP randomly will change the way people use their time on Layo. Bashing is fun and needed, we all need gold to get stuff, but RP is always more fun.

[lonnarin]

Just think of how many girlfriends were lost to the lvl 9 speedbump, lol!

[Chongo]

Jrizz, the point of that figure was not to point fingers at anyone's lifestyle, it was to point out that there are many many players investing hours that are many multiples beyond the server average.  This impressive time difference illustrates that many predispositions towards 'fast levelers' are based on watching their levels rise at a rate 100's of times faster then another person's.  And these predispositions or assumptions are many times false.

The character A and character B example shows this.  You simply can not assume a person's playstyle by their rate of levelling.  You would need a ratio of hours played per levels earned to actually form a a logical conclusion.  *Or*, you would need to watch that suspected individual for significant percentage of their time online to form a sound opinion.  This often falls unfortunately on GM's, and I feel as though it is impossible for them to come to a fair conclusion without investing ridiculous numbers of hours.  And the GM team has much more important things to do for this server.  And I fear sometimes opinions are formed by the aforementioned soundbyte or short clip.  Some of the punitive actions telling a player to slow down in their rate of levelling by GM's recently target individuals who have leveled at an incredible realtime rate.  But, some of these selected individuals that I know of who have been told to slow down or stop hunting have minutes online in the 120 day period of 34120 or 46125.  This is 30-40% of their waking hours.  I honestly don't have the data to show what sort of realtime rate this would equate to, but I'm going to make the bold assumption that it is close to the server average.  And these aren't 'poor' roleplayers or abusive characters.

Now, don't get me wrong, the GM's do a marvelous job and are experienced enough to make decisions that are fair and balanced.  That's why they were hired onto this team that I will confidently say is the most experienced and well staffed of any persistant world in NWN.  But the angst that falls on them and the community may want to be evaluated, and the decision made on whether it is a realtime factor or the game calender factor that dictates these decisions.

I think a slight misunderstanding was made at one point.  I'm drawing undue attention onto myself here and I'm pretty sure I'm going to slap myself for it later.  But...this perspective is of one who has attained level 20 in a very short period of time.  Now when I look at my minutes online, and regard my own playstyle, I kind of shrug at the notion.  I also shrug at the notion of not making a mark on the community around me, as I know that I and several other individuals like me really do make their mark.  I am confident every day that value is added to the server and the atmosphere is made better by what I'm doing with my time online.  Yes, I can look at some individuals that I respect moreso for what they are bringing to the table and how much time and effort they put into adding value without the tangible gain that I've gotten.  They are something to aspire to and I often try to pay attention to what they're doing.  That's how we get better at this whole thing.

But, I look at the number of quests I've been able to attend and my impact on the events of the world and I question my status as someone 'epic'.  I secondguess the way things should be.  I sure as heck am earning what I get, but it's just not flowing right.  I know that my ratio of hours to experience is more then fair... but again, it just doesn't flow right.  I simply have not had the calender time to actually be anything close to a world leader, and while I love the interaction that I have with other players and the environment we create, it feels like the fact that I'm able to play 6 hours a day isn't the right reason.

And I think the disparity creates angst.  And I'm starting to think there's something to evaluating it.

So if come v3 of Layonara someone were to say to me that the progression of individuals on this server was to be curbed more towards a game-calender time rate... I'd probably be excited at a fair way of doing this.  Sure, I'm with folks like Ar7 and Ael on it being fair to keep what you earn, but I don't like the feeling that I'm warping the scope of time on the server.  But it'd have to be something extremely well thought out and extremely fair for everyone, as I don't feel that the method of bad apple picking is fair to either the players or the staff.  It is angst ridden and I fear often misinformed.

There's a fair bit of confusion on the subject, and I wonder if it would not be better if something like the kingdom/ rite of passage system was put in place.  I see quotes from individuals I respect stating that the character that levels in 5 months to level 20 just isn't going to get out of the server what the person that puts in 15 months to do the same.  And when I regard this on a day to day impact... this is just plain false.  However, when I look at this from a questing point of view, a calender impact and actual stamp on the events of the world, I'm starting to agree despite my own convictions on my world impact and value added.  I just haven't been able to do what I deem I should have done to gain due respect in the events of the world.  Someone called my character a hero of the lands the other day and I was really guilty.  I'm just not.  I play in that direction as much as I can, but what's substantiating it outside of my day to day impact?  I haven't saved the world, and at my rate of progression which is indeed fair on the average ratio of hours to experience, I fear I will be an unsubstantiated level before that world history mark is made.  So maybe it is indeed something to think over.  I don't think 'benching' myself is a legitimate conclusion however, as I'm sticking to my guns that the playstyle is adding what I want to add to the server.  I don't feel that I should be shorted what I earn, nor anyone else.  Nor should I be a target to be docked experience.  But what if the server as a whole was set up to maintain some flow with the world calender, so that it was fair and balanced for everyone?

Again, these are just thoughts I've been having, and a fair bit of introspection at my time here and what value ends up really being added.  There's no argument here, just a lot of thought.  Which I hope is helpful to anyone reading.

[Talan Va'lash]

Chongo - 10/22/2006  3:39 PM
I think a slight misunderstanding was made at one point.  I'm drawing undue attention onto myself here and I'm pretty sure I'm going to slap myself for it later.  But...this perspective is of one who has attained level 20 in a very short period of time.  Now when I look at my minutes online, and regard my own playstyle, I kind of shrug at the notion.  I also shrug at the notion of not making a mark on the community around me, as I know that I and several other individuals like me really do make their mark.  I am confident every day that value is added to the server and the atmosphere is made better by what I'm doing with my time online.  Yes, I can look at some individuals that I respect moreso for what they are bringing to the table and how much time and effort they put into adding value without the tangible gain that I've gotten.  They are something to aspire to and I often try to pay attention to what they're doing.  That's how we get better at this whole thing.

But, I look at the number of quests I've been able to attend and my impact on the events of the world and I question my status as someone 'epic'.  I secondguess the way things should be.  I sure as heck am earning what I get, but it's just not flowing right.  I know that my ratio of hours to experience is more then fair... but again, it just doesn't flow right.  I simply have not had the calender time to actually be anything close to a world leader, and while I love the interaction that I have with other players and the environment we create, it feels like the fact that I'm able to play 6 hours a day isn't the right reason.

And I think the disparity creates angst.  And I'm starting to think there's something to evaluating it.

So if come v3 of Layonara someone were to say to me that the progression of individuals on this server was to be curbed more towards a game-calender time rate... I'd probably be excited at a fair way of doing this.  Sure, I'm with folks like Ar7 and Ael on it being fair to keep what you earn, but I don't like the feeling that I'm warping the scope of time on the server.  But it'd have to be something extremely well thought out and extremely fair for everyone, as I don't feel that the method of bad apple picking is fair to either the players or the staff.  It is angst ridden and I fear often misinformed.

There's a fair bit of confusion on the subject, and I wonder if it would not be better if something like the kingdom/ rite of passage system was put in place.  I see quotes from individuals I respect stating that the character that levels in 5 months to level 20 just isn't going to get out of the server what the person that puts in 15 months to do the same.  And when I regard this on a day to day impact... this is just plain false.  However, when I look at this from a questing point of view, a calender impact and actual stamp on the events of the world, I'm starting to agree despite my own convictions on my world impact and value added.  I just haven't been able to do what I deem I should have done to gain due respect in the events of the world.  Someone called my character a hero of the lands the other day and I was really guilty.  I'm just not.  I play in that direction as much as I can, but what's substantiating it outside of my day to day impact?  I haven't saved the world, and at my rate of progression which is indeed fair on the average ratio of hours to experience, I fear I will be an unsubstantiated level before that world history mark is made.  So maybe it is indeed something to think over.  I don't think 'benching' myself is a legitimate conclusion however, as I'm sticking to my guns that the playstyle is adding what I want to add to the server.  I don't feel that I should be shorted what I earn, nor anyone else.  Nor should I be a target to be docked experience.  But what if the server as a whole was set up to maintain some flow with the world calender, so that it was fair and balanced for everyone?

Again, these are just thoughts I've been having, and a fair bit of introspection at my time here and what value ends up really being added.  There's no argument here, just a lot of thought.  Which I hope is helpful to anyone reading.

Good thoughts.