Suggestion for Role Play Event Experience System

[SquareKnot]

From the many threads like this one and those cited in it, two things are clear to me. First, that people who get experience from bashing don't want a limit on that. And second, those that don't get experience from role playing wish they did. Talan Va'lash had a brilliant post in the above mentioned thread which I will quote, in part, here.  

I do not think any additional systems for -limiting- attainable xp/time ratios are necessary at this time (regardless of whether its game time or RL time.)   However, I -do- think that a way to reward non-bashing playstyles is neccessary. I think the system that I summarized briefly in PnP's thread (chongo linked to it above so I'll refrain from doing so again) is a good way to do this, as it does not allow the timed xp system and the bashing xp system to "stack" as it were.   Not having a system like this, I've seen, over the years, the people that get frusterated and leave about the leveling issue are some of the best RPers and often those that don't care to spend their game time in a way that may minimize their RP time even if they want to gain levels and that is the only way. Ironically, this is the play style that is supposed to be the goal of Layonara, insomuch as to say that RP is valued higher than xp for xp's sake.  

 From this, I conclude the obvious: We need a system to reward role play with experience points.   Actually, I think we need several methods to reward role play. GM's giving out RP XP is one part of the solution. I then set out to design another such a system and came up with these criteria:  
[/list]

• Must be fair -- available to everyone, uniformly applied, no sense of favoritism
• Must not cause system lag
• Must not be overly burdensome to GM team
• Must not be exploitable

 So, without further delay, my proposal.  [SIZE=+3]Role Play Experience Points for Running Player Events[/SIZE]  I propose that players who run role play events should be given experience points for running them. What constitues a "role play event?" An event which: [list=1]

• is scheduled on the player calendar at least 3 days in advance
• is open to all players who meet the published criteria (Toranites, undead hunters, rogues, halflings, characters under level 10, characters over level 15, whatever it may be for that event)
• lasts at least one real life hour
• has a higher purpose than just "we'll get together and kill stuff"
• does not involve the completion of NPC quests
• is attended by at least 2 people other than the organizer
• is given prior approval by the Role Play Events Approver
• has a log submitted to the Role Play Events Approver once the event is over
• has a sign-off from one attendee

 Note that players who attend don't get experience points, just the organizer. This is like a CDQ -- no XP for those who attend, only the main person is rewarded. This could merit some discussion.  The advanced notice is to help people plan, and also to allow for GM's to be present if they choose (as NPCs or as invisible observers). However, no GM work is ever required with this system (except to give out the XP long after everything is over. This is just whatever GM is on when the player asks to "cash in" his or her XP. I can't think of a way around this...)  To get approval, the organizer sends a brief message (via forum PM) to the Role Play Events Approver in advance. It contains a brief summary of what you plan on doing. Something like, "I want to hold a chapel session for followers of Az'atta, where we will strengthen each other's faith." If it sounds straightforward, the approval will be given. If it sounds absurd, it will be rejected. The event can still be held, but no XP will be given. If it sounds like it might stray from canon or Layonara lore, then a more complete summary can be sent on to the appropriate staff member to look over before approval or denial.  The reason for at least two people is just so that these events aren't too exclusive. Also, it means that the organizer is motivated to get out there and advertise the event, increasing the immersiveness of the world.  Logs are submitted so that, should there be any question, they can be reviewed. They are easier to submit than an extensive write up of what happened and they provide some proof that the event happened as advertised. If the Role Play Events Approver wants to read every word, it's there. I imagine a quick skim is more than adequate in most cases.  The "sign-off" is a three sentence message saying something like "Yeah, I went to Joe's Fallen Paladin Therapy Session, and it was a lot of fun. I didn't know there were so many of us. Those &*#*^@ no-good Xeenites! Joe did a good job. I especially liked it when he ..." Not a big deal. If it takes more than 3 minutes you're not doing it right. The sign-offs could be posted on a public forum so that others could see what they missed and decide if they want to attend the next one -- or plan something better themselves.  Some additional rules might include limiting how many of these events a player can run per month.  The Role Play Events Approver could be a new position much like character approver. Since this person would never need to have GM access to the game, the training required is much lower. And since all work is done through PMs on the forums, there would never be a need for the requester and the approver to both be connected (or even awake) at the same time. The total work load for this position could be between 0 and 3 hours per month -- again, on the order of what a character approver puts in.  The beauty of this system is that it encourages everyone to think, "What would my character really be doing? Helping the sick? Studying spells? Performing bard songs in taverns? Training with weapons?" Whatever the answer is could be an event, and it could generate experience points. It would be possible to level just by teaching people monk meditation. Or the virtues of Our Lady of the Weave. Whatever. While the XP wouldn't be much, it could keep you moving forward.  I suggest the XP reward be set at something near what would be given for attending a GM quest for a like amount of time. Perhaps a little more or a little less. That's a balancing issue I'll leave to the pros. The XP alone wouldn't be worth all the time that would have to go into something like an event. But the RP is its own reward. The XP are just icing on the cake. The return on investment here is slim -- just getting in game and killing stuff would yield XP much faster. But it would give something to people who currently don't get anything due to their style of play. And it would create a more immersive world by encouraging groups of people seriously to role play their characters.  Obvious events would include running Storyteller's Night or an opening at the Arms with some guest performer or lecturer. Player runs quests, which can be done now using the tools like the Player Quest NPC and the treasure map system would probably qualify. "Let's cleanse the Dire Woods" probably would not -- unless the organizer added a layer on top of that somehow, perhaps by inviting an Undead Hunter to come along and teach the group around a fire before entering the Wood? Moving the role play up a notch is always a good thing. A look at some of the things on the player calendar would provide other ideas. Some other things could potentially be slipped into this system, such as "Publishing an issue of the Dragon's Whisper," though that doesn't exactly meet the requirements.  I'm tired, so I'll stop now. It's your turn. Any thoughts?

[Chongo]

Good thoughts.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I agree that such a system would have merrit. Perhaps even reward attending characters that are well RP'ed and active during the event an xp reward - after all that is what we reward here

[jrizz]

This is a great idea. It will open the door to some great online events. It will also solve the "I cant make any of the GM quests" issue, just make your own event. I think that the XP for RP rewards of such an event should be for all particpants, that will drive more players to be part of them. It will also help create deep RP happenings outside of Hlint. This invloves no code changes just the addtion of a new froum topic and a team from the community. I love this idea so much that I volunteer to be on the approver team and to work with the World team to create the guidelines for what makes a acceptable RP event and what the success criteria of a RP event is. Also to help handle the scheduling of events and scheduling of getting WLs or GMs and RP event participants together for rewards.

This is truly one of the best ideas I have seen suggested on this issue. I am sure that it has been looked at before and I am sure that we can work out any challenges to make this work.

[Talan Va'lash]

jrizz - 10/23/2006  11:29 AM
It will also solve the "I cant make any of the GM quests" issue

It will also help create deep RP happenings outside of Hlint.

Just highlighting some things in jrizz' post that I thought were important.

----

Some disorganized thoughts in response (have class in 15 minutes):

@ jrizz:
 Giving attendees XP as well on the basis or good RP would require someone there to be the judge of that... and I'm not sure creating a situation where players can circularly nominate themselves for xp without some form of checks and balances would be desirable. Also, putting this decision on the events approver wouldn't be good either, as that at least doubles the level of work in that position.
 Giving all attendees XP again creates the question of who decides whether the attendees attended "enough" or participated enough?

----

The thought this discussion is leading me to is a subclass of world leader, who is a character who can run these types of events, their character has an large impact on the world, though they aren't epic, and they might not even be a hero.

Well, I've gotta get going so I couldn't think up that many at the moment. But perhaps this could be a more fluid position, easier to get into (not needing a large quest requiring MUCH planning) and easy to fall out of.

----

I'm also thinking about Stragen1 doing the Cap'n Jake events and others who have run player run series. Player run series seem to me like good first candidates for testing out something like this.

Oh, and please note, they're also good candidates for me to come do some incidental interactions or snipe people with RP XP

[jrizz]

Talan Va'lash - 10/23/2006  2:51 PM

@ jrizz:
 Giving attendees XP as well on the basis or good RP would require someone there to be the judge of that...

This is really one of the big challenges of this idea. One way to do it would be to log the event for review if a WL or GM were not available and then later review the log. This can be time consuming. Another way to deal with it is to have a new class of WL as you put it, although WL is not really the right nomenclature. This new team position would be solely for dealing with player run events and the rewarding of XP for good RP (there would need to be high level guide lines as to what good RP is). This creates two issues one is the perception of abuse and favoritism, the other is it creates the same bottle neck as not enough GMs in X time zone or such. Log review comes back around for me, couple this with a new team position and spot checks by WLs and GMs and we have a system that can work and has built in accountability.

and I'm not sure creating a situation where players can circularly nominate themselves for xp without some form of checks and balances would be desirable.

The log would be the check but I dont feel that player nomination will work very well. It would cause more debates.

Also, putting this decision on the events approver wouldn't be good either, as that at least doubles the level of work in that position.

It would still be less workload then a GM.

 Giving all attendees XP again creates the question of who decides whether the attendees attended "enough" or participated enough?

Another thing to look at is that these events will also provide opportunities to ding PCs that are stepping out of alignment or flat out ignoring check rolls (example: If PC A with a high Cha makes a really good roll on trying to persuade PC B of something then PC B has two choices 1. play it out as if you have been affected or 2. try a will check to beat it and play out the results). In this case neither a WL or "new position" have the power to ding (I think).

With all of this said we as palyers should just start to (as some already have) create RP events and see how it goes with the already in place XP for RP rewards.

Out of my last 153K XP 87K has been RP rewards, one quest and the rest random. This has already changed the things I check for when I get online. I even turned down an invite for what would have been a heavy XP hunt to stay with a RP thing I had going on and ended up getting a nice XP reward for it. We are moving in a great direction here and I am sure we can figure out a way to include player run events in the XP for RP system.

[OneST8]

I haven't read too deeply but perhaps a useful train of thought would be to devise a system that allows the players to nominate the XP rewards... maybe something like... Someone says/does something particularly RPishly good, another player who witnessed it (and is standing within X meters of the Someone) types in some private command like "/o C biowareName++". If that someone got some predefined number of those "++"'s in an hour each from different people the someone would get an instant XP bonus.

Granted, there'd be ways of exploiting such a system but we can talk and debate the idea. Who knows, we've got some brilliant minds around so maybe someone will pull a rabbit-of-an-idea out of their hat.

[Dorganath]

I'm going to just make a couple comments, playing the proverbial "wet blanket" as I am apt to do at times.
  Before I do, though, I just want it to be clear that I'm not making any sort of official statement here, nor will I say whether this is/is not a good idea, or any other sort of supporting or opposing comments.  I do, however, think that there are some things that bear noting with all this, as the idea itself is not a bad one, but implementation in a proper and meaningful way may prove to be much more than anyone considered.
  My one main personal concern is that while it may seem more player-driven and put less responsibility upon the GM Team, my initial view is quite the opposite on the latter point. Ultimately, it will be up to WLs and GMs to hand out the XP from such events, which is exactly what we have right now. Are there enough WLs and GMs to be everywhere there is RP worthy of reward?  No, surely not...nor will there ever be, and I think even with the proposed sub-WL or whatever, there won't be enough.  But at any rate, that GMs or WLs would review, approve and ultimately grant the XP for such events essentially adds more work to the staff.  
  Review of logs is a time-consuming process as well.  Anyone who's combed through their logs before the next session of a quest series knows what I'm talking about, and that's just a reminder of what you did yourself.  If I, for example, had to review the logs for a 4-hour event that I did not attend, it would take me about that long to sort through it.
  While the onus is on the players to organize such events, it is clearly not on the players to execute the rewards, verify the system is not abused, etc.  And yeah, there's tremendous potential for abuse here, and that too requires review to detect and prevent such abuses.
  I'm reminded of the time before we changed the CDQ rules.  At the time, anyone could request a CDQ for pretty much any purpose.  The result was that people (groups of people really) were requesting such things for any old reason...but essentially it was to get XP.  And to get around the time limit of 2 months, a group of people might intersperse their requests so that the group could go from one, to the next to the next and essentially have private quests.  The sheer numbers and the silliness of some of the request promted us to change the rules.  Now, CDQs give no XP and should only be used for actually developing one's character.  People still request them, but they're requested for the purpose for which they are intended. And for those requesting, the experience and result is the reward, not the increase of some number on a character record. This proposal reminds me of how CDQs were before, and I do fear that people will attempt to skirt the time limit rules. Ensuring people do not do so will require oversight,....and that means time.
  The discussion of this system so far has been rather idealistic with lots of excitement behind the concept, and the hidden challenges and complexities have, in my opinion, been largely glossed over without much more than a "this will be better" type of comment.  Unfortunately, for such a thing to ever have a chance of being brought into play, these types of things absolutely must be considered from the very first moment.  Attempts to do it after the fact will generally not be successful, and the system will collapse.
  Again, I am not stating these things to throw cold water on this or similar ideas.  I am only raising talking points so that these things are not ignored but rather made an integral part of further discussions.  
  And just for the record, I work full time, have a family with 2 children and for a little over a year I've been working on module updates for Layonara. I have two characters, one I play rarely and one I play as often as I can...which is not much.  I've had periods of weeks to months where I got no XP even though I played frequently (at the time) and RPed heavily during that time.  My primary character is now 23rd level and has taken nearly 25 months to reach that point. I am currently involved in 3 quests: A long-running series that has been going for nearly a year, the CDQ for another character (due to end this weekend) and my character's own WLDQ which will have its second session this weekend.  For all of these, I get up at unnatural hours on my days off.  It may sound like I am complaining, but I am not. I'm actually quite happy with my character's progression, and while there are days I'd like it to be faster, I really don't mind waiting at all.  The point is, it can be done, and I'd be just as happy at a lower level, because I've not spent 2 years developing a 23rd level character, I've spent 2 years developing Connor. The levels came along naturally in the process.

[SquareKnot]

I'd like to emphasize a key point here that's gotten lost, I think. This is a system for giving XP to an event organizer for running an event. Pause, sit back, and let that sink in. It's absolutely critical, and if understood largely makes many of the criticisms irrelevant.

What that statement means is that the event approver is approving an event, and afterward, confirming that the event happened. The event approver is not judging the role play that took place. Leanthar and others have made clear that it's impossible to define good role play, let alone judge it, in any manner that won't make some people feel wronged. I considered that when making this system. The event organizer is rewarded for creating an environment in which great role play can happen. Whether or not the people who show up perform top notch role play doesn't matter to the system. Which is why the event approver only has to skim the logs. There's no need to decide whether the paladin was sufficiently lawful, or whether the Shadonite was a shade too helpful. The approver only has to count how many people showed up, make sure they stuck around, check the beginning and ending time stamps, and call it good. If there's any question that the system is being abused, then the whole log is there in the interest of full disclosure.

However, since the participants don't get XP, only those who are interested in quality role play will attend. This will create great role play on the server and a more immersive world. And it will do so without creating an XP gravy train.

If the system is set up such that each player is allowed to run only one such event per week (which would help preserve quality and interest), and the experience points given are exactly equal to those given by quest attendance, then it would take about 3.5 real life months for a player to earn a single level off this system. And that's with running a three hour event each week. It's so much easier to get XP from bashing or attending a single quest series that no one would attempt to use the system to power level.

The obvious concern comes up around buddy triangles. A group of people get together and attend each others events. Well, if they do that, I say more power to them. There is a stipulation that the events be open to the general public and that no qualified character be turned away. Remember, each event has to be approved in advance and advertised to the public. If A, B, and C want to get together to participate in something that's been approved, and on occasion characters T and J come along too, I don't see the problem. If it is a problem, it's something that's made obvious very quickly. And no matter how much you collude with your friends, you're not leveling faster than 1 level every 3.5 months. If you have 2 buddies and want to level fast, you'd be far better off spending your time in game killing giants than preparing for an event.

If the quest approver were given a WL XP wand (to be used only for this purpose), then he or she could give out the XP to the event organizers. This would completely eliminate the need for GM or WL involvement. All the event XP from a month or two could be given at once. If it was impossible for the organizer and the event approver to get together in game, then perhaps a GM in a compatible time zone could step in and deliver the XP. All uses of the WL XP wand are logged, making abuse here relatively easy to detect.

I'm really not seeing the tremendous potential for abuse or the crushing load on the team. The hidden challenges and complexities are escaping me. Maybe someone with more experience can clarify things. I think this could work.

[Dorganath]

Again, I was not criticizing, merely pointing out potential issues. Your point of only the organizer getting XP was not lost on me, at least, and it is an important feature no doubt. My statements were more generalized and attempting to reach all points, not only your original suggestion. Also, as often happens with such things, the original idea may not always be what gets put into place, and so if such a system is pursued, it will undoubtedly morph into some similar but different form, and in that form, one or more potential pitfalls may arise that were not originally conceived.
  If I may take a moment to specifically address things from a slightly different perspective...and the next few statements are directed specifically at a couple of your key statements...again, not a criticism in any way.
  What this boils down to (please correct me if I am incorrect) is a way to encourage RP by presenting the opportunity for players to possibly gain XP by setting up an RP event of some kind. In a sense, this already exists. A while back, we added a Player-led Events calendar, and it's been used quite heavily for setting up and coordinating player-driven events since that time. It has not happened in all cases, but GMs have, can and do observe these events and even reward them with something perhaps a bit different than was expected.
  We currently have some instances where players are conducting tasks that were previously the domain of GMs. The most visible and obvious one that comes to mind are the character approvers. This has actually worked out very well so far, and so in at least this respect, a group of "Approvers" for such things as you describe does have precedent for working out. However, GMs still review their work, and we can, and do, override them as necessary. A very similar oversight would be needed for this, and as this would be a new function of the world, it does add work. I would not go so far as to say "crushing" but it's an additional load. Assuming a WL XP wand was given to such characters, the fact that they are logged does help stem the potential for abuse, but it still requires verification, and that takes time. Can this be minimized? Perhaps. My point is not to say, "Oh this won't work because it will add load" but rather to say that for it to work, we must be honest and thoughtful about what, exactly, that load is likely to be.
  Lastly, and I did not mention this above, but I keep coming back to it's shadow, as it has been (and probably will be again in the future) a point of contention among some, and it is absolutely critical to bear such things in mind with something like this. That issue is favoritism, or even the very perception of favoritism....or even the opposite, that being the perception of hostility. In the context of this system, what I mean here is people will invariably wonder why Player A got to be an Approver and they did not....or why Player B's event got approved and theirs did not...or why they can never go on events with Player C. The true reasons may have nothing to do with any personal preferences or prejudices, but the problem always lies with perceptions, not realities. To divert briefly to another similar topic, it's reasons like these why GMs in general cut way back on doing spontaneous events. If someone felt excluded for whatever reason, the perception was favoritism. If something bad happened (character death, loss of something, etc.) then there was anger (i.e. "Why did you mess up my perfectly cookie-cutter trip to Haven Mines...I only wanted two ox-loads of iron ore and those creatures don't belong down there..." and so forth). Simply put, the hassle and frustration caused by trying to break the status quo for players was getting to be not worth the effort of doing so. Now clearly, what can and cannot happen on a purely player-driven event will not be the same as GM-enhanced events, but it is still worthwhile to keep the impact of perceptions in mind always.
  Alright...this is really enough for one night. I'm likely to begin saying things that make no sense whatsoever.  
  In closing, and to reiterate, I'm not leveling any criticism at this idea. In fact, if it grows into a tight, simple and low-maintenance kind of thing, then all the better. But to repeat myself, while it's possible to overcome such issues as I raised, it cannot be simply assumed that we will or that they're as minor as they may seem. Of everything I mentioned, perceptions are the biggest killer, and they absolutely have to be taken seriously.
  Anyway...just some things to keep in mind.
  *steps off his "RP is its own reward" soapbox*

[SquareKnot]

After getting some sleep and thinking about this a bit more, I see that it is doomed. The idea as I presented it carefully avoids many problems, is very tight, and could be implemented. The only problem is that it's not what people want and no one would use it. Or at least not enough people to make it worth doing.

However, if the idea were changed in any of the ways that people have suggested, it would be far more to people's tastes and would be popular. Only it would very, very quickly stray into the problem territory Dorganath has outlined. As such, it would not be possible or sensible to do.

There really isn't much middle ground. At least, not that I have found or that the community has brought up to my knowledge. I think this is because most players in Layonara fall into one of two categories -- they either bash for XP and aren't really invested in this issue, or they role play and feel that role play is it's own reward. I suspect that a few months into Layonara V3 some people may reconsider their positions, but that's a topic for a different day and thread.

I appreciate everyone's professionalism in this thread. I'm in the very, very tiny but passionate minority here, and passion and sleep deprivation never bring out the best in me. Thanks for considering the idea, but it's clearly a non-starter.

[hawklen]

I love XP and RP both. Its nice being able to face off monsters, and great to RP in general. I mostly do more RP than XP. It was a pretty interesting idea, and i wouldnt mind joing something like that

[jrizz]

I hate to see this idea die before we even got our heads together to make a proposal to find a way to make it work and meet that desires of the community. SquareKnot, I will work with you on a proposal of you are willing to. My read from the team members that gave feedback is that while there are possible challenges with this idea there is also a willingness to see if a way can be found to make it work. SquareKnot my email address is jrizzo1@gmail.com if you are still into it lets give this a run and see what we can come up with.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I'm right up there with Jrizz, SquareKnot. pinballdude2000@gmail.com

This sounds like a great idea, and if we can figure out a few ways to minimize the problems Dorg has stated, this can work.

[SquareKnot]

I appreciate the support here. I've written up several pages of notes about this idea since my last comments. However, I won't post them. Instead, let me just leave these opinions.

1) If this idea is discussed, it should be done here, in the forums, in public.

2) I think every concern people have with the idea could be addressed, and many suggested improvements could be made.

3) My picture of the "average Layonara player" (statistically speaking) has changed in the past two weeks. I now think the percentage of the Layonara community that would benefit from this system is much, much smaller than I originally thought.

4) If someone else wants to pick this up and run with it, please go ahead.

[Masterjack]

I think the idea is great. Why do alot of people need to benefit from this system? I don't think I would be able to start a RP event.  I'm really bad a RPing. I would still go to one of these events just to try and improve RP. Get to know people outside of Bashing and CNR. If giving those people that organise those events EXP, then that is good incentive.  It is very easy to organise a bashing event. I do them all the time at the spurr of the moment.  To organise a RP event I would be very scared and intimidated. If this system created just a little more RP then I think it is good and worth it.

Oh and by the way I'll be back playing Beli by Christmas.

[LordCove]

Whilst I do think this is a great idea....I also see a few problems with it, which I wont post because I still think its good.

But I must point out.....that aside from the XP rewards, this already goes on. I've been on several Player led event's where GM's have interacted and thrown weird and wonderful stuff at us for RP. Hell, just wandering the High Forest by myself I got into a little RP with a GM druid and got a nice XP reward for it. A quick history chat with Rhizome did the same ( not the Oak quest ).

And I'd feel a little weird organising Explorers of Mistone events, and only myself receiving XP for it.....when Im probably the worst RPer out of them.

RP rewards are already out there....cause lets face it, you never know when the GM's are watching.

( Come on back Beli!!! )