Author Topic: Copyright/Ownership Policy Discussion (Read 446 times)

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **on:** October 27, 2006, 06:29:07 PM »

Well, if you haven't seen it, here's a link to the thread: http://layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=31395&posts=1&start=1

To cut straight to the point, I have a question.

Assuming that Character X becomes sole property of Dan Scott, what usage rights are retained by the original creator of Character X?

Leanthar · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2006, 06:49:23 PM »

Assuming that happens, and that happens only when the player says that it happens for that particular character the player would have no usage rights except for in world/community of Layonara. It would still be just like normal within Layonara. I want to be clear here. It is not an automatic thing and either I or staff will approach the player for permission to use the character in Layonara text (the copyright part of things). Once that happens (the player agrees in writing)it is a part of that copyright.
If a player doesn't like it then they don't agree and it is no problem at all. Pretty simple.
Please be sure to read the policy. http://www.layonaraonline.com/ownership_policy.asp

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2006, 07:11:54 PM »

Does this effect World Leader standing/ approval of any or all characters?

Leanthar · « **Reply #3 on:** October 27, 2006, 07:14:57 PM »

No. It affects if a character goes in to handbooks, history/lore, or any of the copyrighted stuff. World Leaders can still say they do not want to go down in text (copyrighted) and that is fine. It would be a little strange I personally think but it would still be fine. Not all WL's will go down in text anyways. WL's are really for IN GAME purposes and community support/helpbut a few may stand out for the text. Which is when I or staff would approach the player.

Acacea · « **Reply #4 on:** October 27, 2006, 07:57:55 PM »

Obviously the character thing is just someone playing their character like they do every day and it only comes up if the team decides to use it in stuff like the handbook or World Lore With Capital Letters, which is where they need to make sure it doesn't clash with stuff that is copyrighted by other people. Otherwise pretty much a non-issue; you just say no.

The part I am wondering about is:

Quote

Dan Scott will own the copyright to works created (i) by community members...staff or volunteers...that is defined for Layonara by any person in or outside of the Layonara community that is submitted and accepted...

Dan Scott may use any and all created and accepted works by contributors, either staff or volunteers, as either donated works or for sale and profit. Dan Scott's rights include the right to reproduce, distribute, perform, display, modify, transmit, sale, donate, and to prepare any derivative works based on submitted works."

Is this like, "from this point on," or everything ever made for Layonara, whose information and number of contributors I don't want to think about?

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #5 on:** October 27, 2006, 08:07:38 PM »

To clarify: If Character X became sole property of Dan Scott, would it be permissible to use said character in other, non-Layonaran campaigns, in terms of name, character background, etc.?

Also, assuming the character existed and was played prior to being played in Layonara, would the pre-Layonaran background of said character be considered sole property of Dan Scott, and therefore subject to the same restrictions of use as the rest?

Leanthar · « **Reply #6 on:** October 27, 2006, 08:11:00 PM »

Everybody that has given input and has that in the handbook already has given us permission to use it but I am giving them until the 15th of November to decide against it and we will pull it out. I don't think that will happen. This is for the handbook that is already released. If somebody has been on the team(s) and does not want us to use their submissions for whatever reason we will remove them from the handbook and all references that would fall in the copyright areas.

We are working on the new handbook with a ton of changes going in to it that has been done by the GM,project, and writing team for several months now (on this handbook update). If those team members (or any particualr team member) does not want their information in the copyright of Layonara it will be removed. Really, this new handbook has a ton of changes coming that clearly defines the world as a unique world and it is quite different from the current handbook.

If people do not want their information in the copyright material they need to let me know.

So to answer the question, it is everything ever made for Layonara, but we know who has done it--take a look at the current released handbook (list of credits). The new one that we are working on is that accurate as well. And the new one removes a significant portion of the old stuff (not change/changed it--completely removes it).

Leanthar · « **Reply #7 on:** October 27, 2006, 08:20:07 PM »

".....To clarify: If Character X became sole property of Dan Scott, would it be permissible to use said character in other, non-Layonaran campaigns, in terms of name, character background, etc.?...."

In terms of the same character? If you mean the same character name and the same background then no. Once it becomes a part of the Layonara lore/history (copyrighted stuff) it is a part of it at that time.

".....Also, assuming the character existed and was played prior to being played in Layonara, would the pre-Layonaran background of said character be considered sole property of Dan Scott, and therefore subject to the same restrictions of use as the rest?...."

No. Only the history of the character in Layonara would be considered copyrighted since clearly the player played it before playing it in Layonara. But going back to the first question, once the character is a part of the copyrighted information (if the player chooses to allow that) it should not be played in other settings.

I really do not want to take/steal/thieve or whatever you may want to call it here folks. I am trying to protect the IP and nothing more at all. I am going out on a limb here...

Take a look around... what other published/released game world out there allows players to change the world and have it recorded in history/lore in copyrighted material? There is a reason companies don't do that--its called lawsuits. I am trying to allow players to make a difference but in doing so I MUST protect the IP at all costs. If I can’t protect the IP then players will cease making a difference in the game world.

Leanthar · « **Reply #8 on:** October 27, 2006, 08:24:08 PM »

And I want to stress again. If a player does not want a character to be released to Layonara just say no when/if we approach with the question. Rather simple word and solution. If there is ANY doubt, just say no.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #9 on:** October 27, 2006, 08:44:41 PM »

*Nods.* Understood, I just wanted clarification on whether or not previous incarnations of essentially the same character could be used, legally. Not that I plan on making money off of any of my campaigns, anyhow.

You have every right to protect your intellectual property, and full power to you on that; lawsuits can be a NIGHTMARE. Thank you for the info. If the question's ever asked of me, the answer's "go right ahead."

Acacea · « **Reply #10 on:** October 27, 2006, 09:05:52 PM »

I'm not at all objecting or freaking out about being ripped off--I really have no content to take back, and even if I did I have no plans to leave Layonara, and have no history in any other worlds or PnP games to erase should it come up. I'm solely curious about how something like a removal would be handled and if it is really even possible beyond just hoping it is never necessary. I can totally understand if it IS just "I have no idea but I hope that doesn't happen," just interested if that is the case.

Would it just be a matter of removing it from the handbook stuff and not what is played here in the world? I assume you can't really do one without the other, so...

I'm just curious as to how that would even happen, I guess. I know it's a huge hypothetical jump, I just have a hard time imagining how that would be handled...Say a player had created Vorax, Katia, and Rofirein, and after reading the notice was leery of the uncertainty of her work ending up on Layonara-Sponsored Pantheon-Themed toilet paper, saying, ""Hey wait I don't like this, I just wanted to submit my own stuff for this world and I wouldn't have agreed to this had I known it was possible," what can you really do about it if it's already...there? Press the rewind button to take it all out or bully them into submission? Wipe?

I'm of course aware that that isn't the case and that it's a silly example, especially because someone who created something like that (though I don't think there is anything comparable) would I'm sure have no hesitations about including it 100%, and certainly would not be making a lawsuit--but if they really did say "no?" How do you remove something like that and could it even really be attempted?

Sorry for all the hypotheticals; I'm only curious about whether the world-impact of denials could be a potential concern with the in-game history or if this is just kind of a casual defensive thing about what gets protected in just the papers of the handbook, making it not really something to be examining all possible branches about and all that.

Heh, looking forward to the new handbook even more now, though! New stuff...

lonnarin · « **Reply #11 on:** October 27, 2006, 10:51:09 PM »

As a writer and a composer I furiously copywrite all of my ideas, characters and music as my own intellectual property. As such I'll have to categorically abstain from inclusion in the official trademarked campaign, as all I have written is already legally mine. Nothing against the server at all, I totally understand why this move is being made. Bad experiences with Yahoo music "buying" an entire album of mine when they siezed that old online band website made it so that I had to not only make a new band name (Id Runs Rampant -> Karma Virus) just to avoid them taking a cut of my proceeds upon publication, but I had to sit by and watch their profiting off of my work in advertizements without me seeing a single red cent for it. That's an entire album the public will NEVER be able to see because of Yahoo's monopolistic and evil tactics.

Jerry Yang will recieve a whooping if I ever see him in person.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #12 on:** October 28, 2006, 12:45:45 AM »

an other way to do this L would be to write in the copyright section that all characters name and history included in the hands book are the property of the players/owner that has created them on this server and have given the permission for Layonara to publicise the character as part of the Layonara history.
This way you still have the authorisation to use the name of the character but the characthers still belongs to the person that created them.
Of course a singned document would be ideal to approve that.

lonnarin · « **Reply #13 on:** October 28, 2006, 12:52:15 AM »

An ammendium...

If we can hash out some form of "free usage" policy in which said character copywrites who are involved in the campaign Lore still retain rights to write about them in other settings, ie: if Farros Galdor and Bjornigar Ironguts, characters xyz... etc. could be mutually used and profitable for both parties involved assuming seperate settings and/or campaigns, I'd be totally for the server and Dan Scott profiting off my works so long as I still get to publish works of said characters in my own works of fiction. I just don't want there to be a day when one of my characters is added to the campaign lore, only to be stricken from being used in my own attempts to become a fantasy writer, or visa versa where the campaign gets published and some character included wants a cut of the other party's proceeds. If we can hash that out clearly and legally, then by all means you may use my characters in your own publishing.

I'm just very wary of the whole "signing over" prospects of all-inclusive copywrite agreements and the inevitable court battles I've already had to wage on other materials. (3 of my songs were used in Yahoo pop-up comercials without my actual permission and I was threatened with legal action trying to publish my own bloody work that they flat out stole from me, so you can see where I'm coming from on this) If I become the next RA Salvatore or Layonara becomes the next Eberron, I have no problem on friends helping friends become established. Just no Microsofting from either side involved.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #14 on:** October 28, 2006, 01:02:01 AM »

if what I have given in my preceding post is added to the copyright section of the hand book (you can also add a web pag link in the copy right where it would show each players (alias and full name) and their characters) then it would give permission to Layonara to use the name and history of your character without prohibiting you the creator to use you creation as you see fit in the future.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #15 on:** October 28, 2006, 01:12:11 AM »

Quote

lonnarin - 10/28/2006 3:52 AM (3 of my songs were used in Yahoo pop-up comercials without my actual permission and I was threatened with legal action trying to publish my own bloody work that they flat out stole from me, so you can see where I'm coming from on this) If I become the next RA Salvatore or Layonara becomes the next Eberron, I have no problem on friends helping friends become established. Just no Microsofting from either side involved.

did you have any recording of that song copyrighted 1, 2 in a cealed envoloped that you posted to yourself without ever opening it? 3 in a scealed envelope stamped by a lawer as to the date of the envelope scealed. There is many other way to have you're things copyrighted that are valide in court. If by anychance on of the above was done, you would stand a good chance in court against them for copyright infragment. You only have to prove that the song they used without your permision was recorded prior to the plushing they did of it.
Even though the internet is not fully reglemented, most of the copyright must still be obeyed. Some diference comes into mind for some countries as to when P2P sharing breaks the law, but beside that most other copyright are valide even on the web.
I just remembered of an example for you. About two years ago, the cbc channel ( canadian broadcasting channel) was sued in court by the children of the woman who composed the anthem of the hockey night in canada (cbc intro song for the hockey games) eventhough no contract was ever singed with her, because she was the creator of the song, in canada it is automaticaly copyrighted, they owed the woman around 50 milion in back payment for the use of the song. Now the woman had died about 10 years previous to the law suite and the family found out the original score in her things while cleaning the addict. When they discovered it they went to a lawer who imidiatly began the procedings. What I am saying is that you only have to prove you are the one who produce the song and when, and Yaho would get it in the teeths.

lonnarin · « **Reply #16 on:** October 28, 2006, 01:26:24 AM »

Yes, that was actually insufficient in the eyes of the court and arbitration proceedings. The "poor man's copywrite" is a good concept, but one must submit 45 USD to the Library of Congress or any legal team of a multi-million-dollar corporation destroys the original author of a work unless the true official copywrite laws and proceedings are followed. As such, I submit a backup CD 2x/year to Congress and have all the mp3 data and original Reason 3/cubase files on it as well.

http://www.copyright.gov/prereg/ is a treasure-trove of said procedures. Now I don't even upload/preregester anything unless I already have a deal in the works with a client. I also don't EVER give a publicist my actual audio data to "review" anything I create, instead scheduling interviews/auditions face-to-face and not ever giving them anything to hold onto in order to use for their own means until there's a contract written up.

Orlando/MGM/Universal/Yahoo are all cut-throat entities and must be treated as such. Contingency is key in order to survive, and I gauruntee that 90% of the commercial art out there was outright stolen from the original artist through legal mumbo-jumbo. The same goes for script-writers, who at most recieve 10k for 600,000,000 dollar profit films/commercials based upong their original effort.

On that note Leanthar, make for darn certain that you actually copywrite all campaign materials according to the books and not just mail it to yourself. If Wizards of the Coast wants to steal your ideas for their own, they will unless you have congressional backing to verify your own ownership of your own dream. It stinks tha the law operates as such, but it REALLY does in the end, unless you already have a couple million dollars to throw into a legal team. Take it from somebody who was screwed hardcore in their youth, and will never be so again. heh.

EdTheKet · « **Reply #17 on:** October 28, 2006, 01:37:39 AM »

Acacea:

Quote

Say a player had created Vorax, Katia, and Rofirein, and after reading the notice was leery of the uncertainty of her work ending up on Layonara-Sponsored Pantheon-Themed toilet paper, saying, ""Hey wait I don't like this, I just wanted to submit my own stuff for this world and I wouldn't have agreed to this had I known it was possible," what can you really do about it if it's already...there?

That's why we're doing the pantheonic overhaul so that the deities in the upcoming incarnation of the handbook can be copyrighted with the permission of the people who did the overhauling.

Hellblazer/Lonn could you please continue your discussion on music in a separate thread so that we can keep this one on topic? Thank you.

lonnarin · « **Reply #18 on:** October 28, 2006, 01:41:22 AM »

This is totally on topic. I don't want to be ripped off, and you don't want to be ripped off, so lets all agree and PREPARE not to be ripped off on all creative content that we, the originators and the artists bled, wept and sweated for. The very same copyright protection laws account for all individual/community works, whether they be audio, visual, written, theatrical, film, software coding, invention patent or anything else that is produced from somebody's vision here in the US.

I'm not talking about which bands are "cool" or "trendy" in the modern era. I'm talking about legal proceedings that I've already wasted tme and effort into. Consider this free legal advice to guard every angle possible, else you WILL be ripped off.

If there's a buck to be made with somebody else's effort, then capitalism dictates it is a purely profitable venture and MUST be exploited as such. Sad but true.

Leanthar · « **Reply #19 on:** October 28, 2006, 06:29:58 AM »

".... I just don't want there to be a day when one of my characters is added to the campaign lore, only to be stricken from being used in my own attempts to become a fantasy writer, or visa versa where the campaign gets published and some character included wants a cut of the other party's proceeds...."

Then my suggestion is that if we ever approach you to have one of your characters in the handbook that you say no. If you say no it is not any skin off our back as we are just approaching somebody and if you say no that is your choice. If you say yes then you need to stick with it.

If you say no you get to use whatever you want whenever you want. I don't see how that is a difficult thing to do or say and it is clearly your (or others) choice.

"...On that note Leanthar, make for darn certain that you actually copywrite all campaign materials according to the books and not just mail it to yourself. If Wizards of the Coast wants to steal your ideas for their own, they will unless you have congressional backing to verify your own ownership of your own dream. It stinks tha the law operates as such, but it REALLY does in the end, unless you already have a couple million dollars to throw into a legal team. Take it from somebody who was screwed hardcore in their youth, and will never be so again. heh...."

Yeah I know. And it is a legit copyright, not a poor mans. As is the trademark.