Author Topic: Rent for player housing in V3? (Read 3533 times)

Pen N Popper · « **on:** December 07, 2006, 05:12:34 PM »

What do you think of requiring house owners (or their representatives) to have to pay a fee every RL month for their housing?

Filatus · « **Reply #1 on:** December 07, 2006, 05:20:03 PM »

Does this include removing the price to buy it? Because in that case the houses will be obtained even quicker.

DMOE · « **Reply #2 on:** December 07, 2006, 05:20:06 PM »

Why? They already raised the funds to buy their houses and not everyone goes out to bash and earn lots of gold ever month.

Ravemore · « **Reply #3 on:** December 07, 2006, 05:40:55 PM »

No way... If you bought it, why would you want to pay a monthly fee?

Dorganath · « **Reply #4 on:** December 07, 2006, 06:00:44 PM »

Why?
Taxes...insurance...maintenance. *shrugs*

Laldiien · « **Reply #5 on:** December 07, 2006, 06:10:52 PM »

Layo is still a game right? The place you go to escape taxes, insurance and maintenance....

Gulnyr · « **Reply #6 on:** December 07, 2006, 06:15:10 PM »

I'm a fan of a realistic experience, and that includes taxes and maintenance costs and the like. If you buy a house, you should have to pay taxes and maintain it. The same goes for inns and guild halls and whatever other properties characters are allowed to own.

Every few months, there is a thread about prices and the economy. One of the underlying problems is that we don't have a good basis for the economy. It's way too easy to get money and there aren't many outlets for spending (or losing) money. More expenses, like housing taxes and weapon/armor repair, would help a lot. Yeah, taxes and fees and other things that take from our characters aren't a lot of fun. Think of it as paying for the wonderfully smooth roads that make getting around Mistone easier, or as the funds that pay for the soldiers that keep it safe. *shrug*

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #7 on:** December 07, 2006, 06:35:22 PM »

If you want all the benefits of life with money, without any of the hardships that go along with it, you're in the wrong fantasy world. *Chuckles.* Admittedly, the hardships here are, and will be, MUCH less... Well... Hard, than in RL, but if you want a stable economy, you'll want what has to go into a stable economy - a drain on surplus money.

Let's face it - the majority of people with houses have a reasonable amount of gold in their banks. This is especially true of the members of large guilds (though to be honest, I haven't seen this with my own eyes for anyone but Seteece), who get influx of cash from sales, and don't have all that much to spend it on; they've already got what they need.

We're already paying for Crafting Badges. The money there, in-game, goes toward upkeep of the public crafting facilities. What about your houses? Who does upkeep on them? Or the roads? Or the standing militia? Or the well in Hlint? ... Okay, so the well in Hlint probably has some rancid meat in there, along with some alchemical waste... But the other wells! Yeah.

I am a big fan of escapism, and a big fan of realism. I'm one of those nutty fellows who can combine the two - I could play in a world EXACTLY like ours, and still sate my escapist tendancies. After all, it's not my life.

Pyyran pays rent on his housing (and in fact I believe rent is due right about now). I like it that way. Not only does it keep me active with that character, so he can pay his rent, it also puts a drain on his bank account. Now, Pyyran is NOT rich. In fact, he usually scrapes the coin together for the things he has to pay for by the skin of his teeth. He's in debt to Armolas by four thousand True... But it's not a source of undue stress for me. It's motivation to keep Pyyran actually getting his hands on gold, and to continue adventuring, exploring, working on his crafts so getting that gold is easier... And it makes the character more realistic to play, which HELPS the immersion for me. The tax man cometh.

lonnarin · « **Reply #8 on:** December 07, 2006, 11:08:34 PM »

Could we set up a direct deposit account witht he World Bank of Layonara so that we don't get evicted for OOC reasons like having a computer die on you and needing several months to save up for a new on? If not, this system will produce more animosity than happy-fluffy feelings...

Eight-Bit · « **Reply #9 on:** December 07, 2006, 11:12:33 PM »

I'm pretty much entirely against it. Even as someone who never bothered to own a house. Taxes, insurance, repairs? That's the stuff in real life that drives me insane. I come here for fun, and if one less annoying aspect of life is in the game, then it's something I'm very much happy with.

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2006, 12:18:37 AM »

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lonnarin - 12/8/2006 12:08 AM

Could we set up a direct deposit account witht he World Bank of Layonara so that we don't get evicted for OOC reasons like having a computer die on you and needing several months to save up for a new on? If not, this system will produce more animosity than happy-fluffy feelings...

I'm not incredibly for or against (I'm in a beige mood right now) but it would drive me batty if I actually had to remember to log in and do it every X RL time interval, so I'm fine with it if there's something like this. Or if you can build a negative balance on which you're charged interest or something rather than your house just being poofed if you forget to log in for a day.

Honora · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2006, 03:21:39 AM »

Against it. Perhaps the perception is there that homeowners are rich, but as someone who is scraping up every gold she can to buy her house, and will be dead broke when she does, and spends much more time writing for the team than playing...

As others have said. It's a fantasy world. I have no desire to see taxes intrude here, or whatnot. Deal with that enough every day.

lonnarin · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2006, 05:59:44 AM »

I agree on that point. As an owner of a dead computer, I'm spending much more time approving characters these days from work, than playing online. We should base whether or not houses get recycled into the populace on whether or not the player logs in every 3-6 months or so. We paid for those houses, plus the real estate owner ALREADY added lies and taxes to the cost when we were buying them. (remember that tagline... oh yeah, well taxes came in and you pay 20k extra...) so yeah, we paid the taxes. Anything incremental will make us mental, and the CDQ will inevitably form where Blackford is stormed.

Nehetsrev · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2006, 07:27:53 AM »

I'd vote yes to maintenance cost of homes as long as it was fair for everyone. Say for example 2500 Trues/game-year regardless of the location of the home or it's initial value. I also think if such a system were implemented, it would work best if the funds were withdrawn directly from a character's bank account. Perhaps the system could be set up to scan for who holds keys for each house and divide the total due between all holders of a key.

For example, say Characters A, B, C, D, E decide to share Home 123 so Character A, whose name the home is in makes keys for B, C, D, and E, once annually the system scans their inventories for keys to Home 123 and then divides the 2500 Trues by the number of keys for Home 123 it finds, then charges each character directly the result, in this case they'd each pay 500. Now say Character B, and C also share a second Home 345, they'd also pay 1250 each at the annual date for that second home. If one or more key-holders don't have the funds in their acount to pay their share, their share is taken out of the home-owners account (for Home 123, that's Character A) and both the home-owner and the key-holder(s) who had insuficient funds receive a LORE message stating what has happened and why. If Character A's bank acount doesn't have enough in it to cover what the other users of the home can't pay for 2 consecutive game-years, the house gets foreclosed on and goes back on the market. This would make players think carefully about who they share their home with, as well as allow responsible groups to divide the burden of housing costs evenly among eachother. Obviously, if Character A wanted to be sure their home was never sold then they'd have to be sure to keep a minimum of 2500 Trues in their own account at all times. Since the scripting for this would only need to be run once each game-year, it shouldn't be too big a burden on system resources (in my thinking anyway, but I'm in no way an expert).

Weeblie · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2006, 07:42:28 AM »

Nehetsrev:

I have a few counterarguments to that, but... hehe... There is one main one that kills that idea: The whole key system has to be changed to keep track of who has the keys and who hasn't. The keys are in the inventory of the players and not available in the database. So, either you keep track of the keys together with the database (which would be a problem if the person in question tossed the key into a trashcan, dropped it on the ground, etc) or you would have to load every single character file on the server using some 3rd party script (like, the one used for LORE?) to see who has the key and who hasn't. By my thoughts for the moment, a "split the cost" system only based on keys isn't really feasible.

The other arguments was something along the line: "What about the people that you only give the key to to lend them a portal access?"

Nehetsrev · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2006, 08:17:22 AM »

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Weeblie - 12/8/2006 9:42 AM

Nehetsrev:

I have a few counterarguments to that, but... hehe... There is one main one that kills that idea: The whole key system has to be changed to keep track of who has the keys and who hasn't. The keys are in the inventory of the players and not available in the database. So, either you keep track of the keys together with the database (which would be a problem if the person in question tossed the key into a trashcan, dropped it on the ground, etc) or you would have to load every single character file on the server using some 3rd party script (like, the one used for LORE?) to see who has the key and who hasn't. By my thoughts for the moment, a "split the cost" system only based on keys isn't really feasible.

The other arguments was something along the line: "What about the people that you only give the key to to lend them a portal access?"

Well, point one, I'm no scripter/coder, that's for certain, but it seemed to me that since keys are required to access locked homes, it seemed the best way to track who's sharing a home. It also seemed to me that LORE does have the capability of seeing what characters are carrying (at least what they have equipped) and as I said the script need only run once annually each game year. So, if say Characters B, C, D, and E, all got rid of thier keys before the script ran, Character A is still left with the full cost of the annual fees/maintenance of the home. He'll then know not to trust Characters B, C, D, and E and thus not issue them replacement keys since he'll be hit with the full cost himself.

Point two, Portal Access is one of the main reasons many Players have Characters who own homes, thus I feel if you have a key you should pay for that convenience. Players are still free to allow open access to their homes by leaving the door unlocked if they want others to be able to use the portal within without having to pay a share of the annual upkeep, and players who choose to do so I'm sure are aware of the risk that doing so entails. And conversely, why shouldn't Character A get some compensation for allowing other characters access to the conveniece of their portal if they wish to keep it more or less private? That compensation would come in form of reduced cost to Character A so long as those he shares keys with are trustworthy and don't drop the keys prior to the running of said annual script, or become negligent that they don't keep funds in their accounts to pay their share.

Yes this system does assume that most Players are going to be honest in their dealings, even if their Characters are rogues. And yes, there are ways it could be abused to the home-owners disadvantage, but there again the home-owner ultimately learns who can and cannot be trusted with access to the home they worked hard to purchase and upkeep. Once that is known, steps can be taken both in and out of character to revoke said access to untrustworthy individuals. We have a community here at Layonara Online that is founded on Trust, and though there will always be a few who prove untrustworthy, we have a great team of DM's & GM's who can and will weed out those who are dishonest to the point of stealing from other players. Yet it is not often, relatively speaking, that such individuals are found here, and I can only think of 3 or 4 instances of theft on Layonara that have been brought to the attention of the community since I began playing here back in March/April 2006. I'd say that's a great track-record.

Weeblie · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2006, 10:06:22 AM »

What I meant is simply that while it is (most probably) possible to make such a system, the time spent would (most probably) be very huge and the reliability uncertain. For the moment (and from what I know), who has the key to which house isn't tracked (except for the house owner, of course) and to track that in itself might or might not be an easy thing (yes, LORE can read the item name, reading the "house ID/keyset ID" from the key, or something, is a different thing, though).

The process of updating the characters in LORE is not stable, as a lot of people have noticed. I heard OneST8 mention that the windows scheduler sometimes doing weird thing like skipping the updates, and so on. I would imagine some people would start to fill in "Huh? I lost X amount of gold from my bank but I don't have any keys anymore!"-request for the dispute forum if this isn't a 100% reliable system. There might of course exist workarounds for this.

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And conversely, why shouldn't Character A get some compensation for allowing other characters access to the conveniece of their portal if they wish to keep it more or less private?

Character A maybe doesn't want the compensation? If I was a house owner, I surely would not want my room-mates to pay for the upkeep too. If I wanted money... Well... I would require rent for my room-mates instead (Leilon Inn style?)!

Whether it's a good or bad idea, I stand relative neutral. Even though, I'm rather fond of a taxing system myself. Taxes, taxes, taxes!

But, just saying that a "shared cost house tax system" feels like something that will cost (more to write) than it will taste. A pure "house owner pay the tax system" though, wouldn't require the same amount of time.

Lilswanwillow · « **Reply #17 on:** December 08, 2006, 10:25:39 AM »

I tenatively voted yes

BUT I have a different type of idea: rental units. Forget saving up money for a house. ya rent it for 200-1000 true/month, depending on location, size, etc.
slum lords, etc. Maybe even a town just for renting houses, instead of a house here, ten there... I'd rent a slum lord house for 200 true with someone else that way!

for the people that already have houses: I don't know what the plans are for V3. But I think letting them keep thier houses, and then adding places for rental units would be great!

you don't pay for 2 months, your kicked out, and get a rl e-mail tellin ya you have 1 rl week to get everything out, or your stuff is gone. That way, you might beable to figure out a way to get it out. maybe withdraw from bank first, if there is lack of funding, a letter, and you can directly pay your land-lord.

Niles09 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 08, 2006, 10:49:47 AM »

Against it... what about the players who doesnt have the time to play that much every month? How would they ever afford a house?

Vyris · « **Reply #19 on:** December 08, 2006, 10:56:55 AM »

Consider it property taxes, If you think you really own your home even in RL you're mistaken. Your responsible for it, but if you don't pay your taxes watch how fast the government asserts their ownership.

Vyris