Not particularly important

[laurabunny]

I decided not to post in the EVERYONE DISCUSS thread because I don't think what I have to say is really very important... but I would like to say it, and I figure there might be one or two who would be interested in hearing what I have to say.  There are a grand total of three things I don't like about Layonara.  Let's look at them one by one, shall we?  First... I think it's absolutely ridiculous to try and maintain an ESRB rating for a persistent world that is LOWER than the rating on the game itself.  I've been chastised for things that were well within the "Teen" rating, certainly, and even for saying things I wouldn't hesitate to say in front of young children and their parents.  Things milder than some of the things in the voice sets.  I keep reading that people "know of seven-year-olds" playing on Layonara.  I submit that this is completely irrelevant; parents who allow children that young to play online games clearly [CENSORED - controversial statement - even by the standards of this post].  Another thing: I'm too scared to have fun playing my Xeenite cleric because sexual innuendo is strictly forbidden.  Not that being strictly forbidden eliminates it; I still see it all the time.  This leads me to my second problem...  The rules are enforced in a strictly arbitrary fashion.  I would understand if it was a case of there being an insufficient number of DMs to police the entire population the entire time... but no.  There are instances of DMs breaking the "official" rules with abandon.  I'm not going to mention any names (under any circumstances whatsoever) because those are some of my favourite DMs.  Don't bother guessing, I have quite a few favourite DMs.  In any case, this can only lead to an almost universal lack of respect for the rules.  It is necessary either to pare back the rules until they can be consistently enforced, or fill the ranks of the GM team with [CENSORED - potentially offensive term] who will vindictively enforce ever single rule currently in place.  Finally... this last one is a toughie, because while it is something I don't like, it's also something I do like.  The inclusiveness of this server.  It's a wonderful thing, of course.  It appears to take a lot to get banned from the server.  Unfortunately this means that the [CENSORED - potentially offensive term], the [CENSORED - potentially offensive term], the [CENSORED - potentially offensive term], and even the [CENSORED - potentially offensive term], for whom I have a particularly low tolerance, are welcome.    Why don't I leave? The people, of course.  As you may have concluded from the previous paragraph, there are those whose presence I do not appreciate.  "Don't interact with them, then." Well, fine, except that this breaks immersion for me.  So I suffer through it anyway.  But there are also quite a few people who I would miss terribly if I did go.  So now, although I'm not even spending that much time in game, and spending almost no time outside of Hlint, I'm still around.  I won't try to name you all because I'd be sure to leave someone out... Suffice to say that if I speak, communicate, interact with you with any kind of enthusiasm, I like you.  Also, if I've told you that I like you, then I like you.  Because I do things like that.  I mean, honestly, pretty much everybody that I talk to I like, even if they're REALLY MEAN TO ME REDHAWK NEPP VGN ahem.

[Eight-Bit]

What's all the censored words, eh?

[LynnJuniper]

Did she get her own post or did someone else?

[Falonthas]

not edited she censored herself to keep within the guidelines but her point is seen which is what i think her intent is

[laurabunny]

Yes, thank you, Falonthas.

[Niles09]

I agree on the age question, in particular, I don't think the amount of violence in this game is suitable for kids under the official rating, and either are they experienced enough to play in online RPG's with so many other kinds of people around.

[Tanman]

I think that this post is quite relevant and does hightlight some interesting issues. One is that of playing a Xeenite. Please correct me if I am wrong but when Leanthar refers to sexual issues he refers to the *act* of it. . .

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23742&posts=2&start=1

This doesn't mean to say your Xeenite cleric cannot dress in a particular fashion. If the team or Leanthar did not want people to dress in a particular way, they would have removed that option of dress

Xeenites are that of pleasure and pain. I don't see why your Xeenite character cannot act amorously (being suggestive)...as long as you don't go and detail the act of having sex. I have RP with your cleric and I do not believe that you should be scared.

If the team has another view, I would love to hear an official word (from say L)to quickly clarify it. Thanks

[pejsaboy]

My opinions have been along these same lines from day one. Of course, I'll follow the rules because they're the rules, but I do think it's a little unreasonable to expect everyone to keep it more or less G- or PG-Rated when the engine is rated T for 13+ *shrugs* At the same time, I don't want to log on one day and have people RPing sexual encounters in the streets of Hlint.

[Filatus]

First... I think it's absolutely ridiculous to try and maintain an ESRB rating for a persistent world that is LOWER than the rating on the game itself.

On the contrary, it would be ridiculous to have a higher rating. The NWN rating is based on the original campaigns and the clothes you have there.

Layonara on the other hand is dynamic because the content is provided by the players themselves and this can lead a lot further than anything on the OC.

And then there is all the custom content in wardrobes. Let's just say I sometimes blink at the apparent priorities of the modding community, in the way what types of clothing are considered to add more the game.

I'm too scared to have fun playing my Xeenite cleric because sexual innuendo is strictly forbidden. Not that being strictly forbidden eliminates it; I still see it all the time.

As far as sexual innuendo is concerned, I agree that the line not to cross is a bit greyish, wide and wobbly. I'd say, if it's blatantly obvious and lacks any creativity, you're better off not saying it. Double meanings can be fun and add some spark to roleplay, but keep it original.

And of course, the everlasting guideline. If you might think you're crossing the line, just assume you are and don't do it.

Finally... this last one is a toughie, because while it is something I don't like, it's also something I do like. The inclusiveness of this server. It's a wonderful thing, of course. It appears to take a lot to get banned from the server. Unfortunately this means that the [CENSORED - potentially offensive term], the [CENSORED - potentially offensive term], the [CENSORED - potentially offensive term], and even the [CENSORED - potentially offensive term], for whom I have a particularly low tolerance, are welcome.

I hear what you're saying, but it's impossible to police new members, the recent darkchild post shows that. You can sometimes tell a lot about someone's posts for example in the way he addresses the team. But in no way could that be an outright reason to kick people of the server.

Layonara has such a high quality partly because of its consistancy in following up on the rules. If you look at people getting band, it's pretty obvious the layo team only acts on hard facts. Would we want anything less? Where would that end, it could end with a world where false accusations can get players banned and what not.

Concerning your tolerance, it's not that hard to keep players away, for whom you have 'less tolerance'. If you're bothered, send a tell. If they keep bothering, take screenshots. The team does act upon that.

[Leanthar]

Well stated Filatus. Everything you stated is pretty much spot on.

[Acacea]

There is a difference between the forums and in-game. The forum has an etiquette that is between players, expected to be kept clean and courteous--sometimes annoyingly so. The game's dialogue occurs between characters, that are expected to be in-character without being blatantly profane. No one should object to any character using words that appear in their own voicesets, and in all my time here I have never seen it happen except on the forums, which as I said is a different story.

If it has happened, perhaps it was a newer GM getting settled in their shoes. I'm sure everyone has had a teacher or other profession that is still a 'rookie,' and has yet to find out and understand that balance between "slack" and "stranglehold," making them quote from the book at all times even when what they're quoting might not have been meant to be taken out of context and applied indiscriminately. This occurs frequently here as well, especially because of what is a tendency of players to point fingers at everyone who may even appear to be breaking a rule, if they've ever been reminded themselves...usually without ever just sending a simple tell to ask what's up. This goes for any rule, and is often completely devoid of context and only further polarizes the community.

As an example, a group of epics takes a level 7 character to the Underdark. Whether or not they provide any assistance at all, there is little dialogue beyond "get the mages," or "ambush on the right." They are chided and warned against this kind of behavior.

The one warned of course will never believe he has done anything wrong; instead he will frequently harbour resentment about the incident, and because he feels that any similar level difference is immediately suspect, reports the level 17 character escorting the group of characters below level five around Mistone for two hours, telling stories and pointing out places of interest and fighting all of five encounters or something.

This accomplishes several things. One, it has to be looked at, which is time that could have been spent elsewhere. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not, but still it needs to be. Two, regardless of outcome, it is unlikely that the high level player will repeat the roleplaying experience, solely because of the dislike of coming under investigation for trying to be involved and share history. Three, when it is explained that nothing was really wrong with it, the whole incident is used as an example of favoritism and unequal treatment, because the motivation behind the guideline is not understood, and bitterness is the only guide.

The same frequently goes for communications in-game. I've seen several Xeenite clerics manage their innuendo just fine. My character is a halfling rogue/bard, so innuendo and creative cursing is a stock trait for her as well, which has been played since the day she entered Hlint, long long before I attended a scheduled quest, before I knew which characters were DMs. I've never had a problem with it, nor have I ever given anyone else a problem with it. The choice to avoid the small-fry words that are heard constantly (via voiceset) for fear of reprisal is your own.

It feels like too many people point at the DMs instead of looking at the DMs when it comes to the standards. They're supposed to set it--do they always succeed in doing it well? No. Do they usually do it maliciously, set out to make your life miserable? Not really. Do they, for the most part, serve as a pretty good example of what will work on Layo? Yeah...they're selected from the playerbase. You realize that, right? Their characters often existed before they were DMs.

Seriously, this one is far easier if everyone just chills out and plays their characters without crossing the line into 'blatantly inappropriate.' Despite the harping about the need for specifics, no one really needs them. You know when you're making a remark that's really pushing it or directly breaking it. Have fun with your character and save the strong stuff for the people you know are comfortable with it, never going full out to 'having relations' in the corner or using the top 'bad words,' whether or not you feel there is such a thing as a word that is inherently bad (I don't), just because you are playing with such a wide sampling of people.

I really enjoyed the laid-back roleplaying that used to occur more often between characters, but those who are wronged or only feel they are wronged generally dislike seeing freedom had between others.

And yes, as a personal note, the habit of never asking about a policy and just waiting to let it all out in a rant in a day/month/year of rants is very tedious. Despite the fact that all of them usually loudly proclaim that everyone is just trying to have fun, the amount of fun the average player has in a game is inversely proportional to the amount of drama on its forums. Hope everyone else is having fun.

[Leanthar]

And well stated Acacea.

[Grid Blader]

I do like it the way it is, I have a daughter that has been watching me play and reading what I type and what others type.  She is young, and to be honest she has heard a lot of words come out of my mouth when working on the hunk of junk I call a truck.  The GM team does a great job.   The rules were put in place for the younger ones, and as adults we need to respect the rules as grown up's.  If you dont think the rule is fair, or dont want to follow the rules.   I dont know what to tell you, but there may be another server out there that you will find more to your likeing.

[Rowana]

@laurabunny- I'd like to point out that *many* of the rule concepts that are in place (and the ones you are speaking of right now in your post) are in place because the rules were much more flexible prior and people crossed the line multiple times, forcing L and the team to make the new rules more stringent. Had certain individuals that came before you not repeatedly broken the much more lenient rules, these present rules would be much more relaxed. If you read over the posts where L has stated the rule change you will see why he's made them, at least in general. It's very much a case of the few ruining it for the many. The few being those who just do what ever pleases them in spite of others feelings or requests, and the many, who are perfectly capable of following the rules as they had been priorly stated.

Keep in mind that there is a certain type of atmosphere that world creator has for his creation. This same man pays out thousands of dollars a year for your free entertainment. If he sets a rule because he doesn't have time to deal with the infractions being caused by the lack of the rule, it's really for the best. It gives him more time to work on the parts of the server that thrill us and amaze us, and give us enjoyment while he doesn't have to worry about people being made to feel completely uncomfortable on his server.

Am I saying you are wrong to feel the way you do? Absolutely not. All I am saying to you is that, there are reasons that we enforce the rule to the degree it is at. It's publicly posted on the forums if you care to take a peek and see what those reasons are. If you are indeed seeing a GM do something on their PC that you have been reprimanded for, please, by all means call it to our attention. When you have so many people working together sometimes there are accidental inconsistencies. Help us make this place as constant as possible instead of just bottling it up.

There really isn't a fine line between something the staff considers a waste of time and a very real problem. If you have logs of yourself saying something that was considered out of line, only to turn around and see a GM doing it as well (and have logs it's helpful) Please turn this in to some of the staff. If your uncomfortable, we do anonymous reporting too. Send your issue to any one of the staff and request anonymity. While the issue will be discussed with the staff as a whole your name gets kept out.

~row

[Acacea]

Please, no more calling to attention... I don't think I can take it. How about we just ask the person doing it instead, before ringing the alarm bell?

[laurabunny]

When I posted this I half-expected to be flamed, but mostly I just hoped I would feel better getting this stuff off my chest.  Well, neither happened.  I guess that's half-good, half-bad.  But the sense I'm getting from the powers that be is that, while of COURSE any concerns I have are relevant and will be soberly and sincerely considered, nothing will change.  From the less-than-high-ups, I'm apparently not grown-up enough to accept kid-friendly rules.  I shall remember that as I continue to work towards my calling... as an elementary school teacher.

Anyway, that's fine - it just means that the server clearly isn't for me.  So thanks for a pretty good first online gaming experience.  I will no longer be reading the forums, I will not see any further responses in this thread.  IDii has my contact information if anyone wants it.

[Redhawk]

@laurabunny.
Darlin' if i'm pokin' fun atchya, it's cus i like ya. And I do hope that if I be stupid enough to meta game that into my character and your characters interactions you'll smack me upside the head.

Sheesh, people we getting so serious round here, gonna need to have the Shadonites over for dinner again.

[Acacea]

No one said, "your concerns are  valid and we will be sure to thoroughly consider them and let you know, thank you for your time" nor "you really are terrible at being kid-friendly." I'm pretty sure most of the responses fell more in the line of "actually it's not MEANT to be as you paint it, those things are NOT strictly forbidden and are being misrepresented." I don't understand where that was turned into "yes it's forbidden and some will continue to break the rules, just deal with it."

Shadonites are sounding like a good idea, heh.

[Talan Va'lash]

Interpreting this rule isn't all that difficult, though I see the problem players that didn't witness the events that caused the rule to be made have in interpreting it.

The instances that forced this rule to be made were PATENTLY VULGAR or PORNOGRAPHIC.

Those two things and derrogatory language used to grief someone are the only items that fall under this rule that are on the scale of a bannable offense (temporary ban usually for first offense.)

----

People's opinions of what is or is not "acceptable" varies widely but generally a group of people can get together and unanimously decide what is patently vulgar or pornographic or not. The fact that this stuff was occuring in a manner that lacked any iota of taste is what forced this rule.

Basically, if you're not doing that, you're not the target of this rule.

[Dorganath]

Talan Va'lash - 12/12/2006  4:35 AM  
  The instances that forced this rule to be made were PATENTLY VULGAR or PORNOGRAPHIC.

 That's putting it mildly.
  @laurabunny: I know there are and have been several successful Xeenites who play up the dogma quite effectively without crossing the line into impropriety. It can be done, and with a pretty high degree of freedom too, I might add.
  But, if the limits we have in place here are not suitable to your playing style, then there's no sense in you trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. As I said in another thread, some of the rules are in place for very good reasons and are currently immutable because that is how Leanthar wants them to be. If you were around when the current "no sex" rule was put into place, you might understand more why the rule was made. The "RP" was simply pushed way too far, went far beyond the boundaries of good taste and completely shattered the spirit of the previous guidelines in that regard. It is one more case of a few spoiling things for the many.
  There are other factors, but the key ones here were that prior policies and guidelines were abused, stomped upon and or ignored completely, which is sadly the case in most of our more restrictive and absolute policies.