Wood Foraging.

[Chnmmr]

Small suggestion here.  Wood foraging is limited by timer already (90 minutes infact) so can the requirement of search and spot be seriously considered being removed?  With that timer of 90 minutes and the need for search and spot (both cross class for druids) one can spend days trying to gather a single piece of wood and not get anything.

[Sab Kaylag]

i like the idea it'd probably help.  But what would it be replaced with a wisdom check or just a certain amount found?

[Falonthas]

wood foraging simply takes a campfire near teh tree
its part of the foraging prompts with the fire no spot or search needed that ive seen

[Dorganath]

Search and Spot do factor into foraging for wood. Having said that, someone with zero search or spot stands about a 25% chance of finding some wood each time.

[Chnmmr]

A person with an axe can go up to a bunch of trees and take all the wood from the trees in about 5 minutes.  Someone who has to forage gets one chance, and when you don't have spot or search as class skills that chance is 25%.  Failure is a 90 minute wait untill you can try again, meanwhile the wood would have respawned again and said lumberjack is cutting wood again, and again.

I'm suggesting something like....   d20 + Druid/Ranger level against a DC of 20.  Yes high level druids never fail... but they can only gather wood every 90 minutes (no matter where they go,) surely that is limiting enough?

As it stands, a Druid would need to wait -6- hours to succeed in wood foraging.  How many CNR respawns of Hickory, Oak, etc is that?

[Dorganath]

Wood gathering via foraging was never meant to be on the same level of production with someone chopping with an axe.  It was included as a compromise to allow Rangers and Druids to gather wood without breaking dogma/oaths, encouraging them to burn a feat in order to equip the hand axe or putting them in situations of questionable RP as  a result.
  Sometimes, the forest does not provide very much that would be suitable for use in crafting. Sure there are sticks and branches all over the forest, but only a select few would be suitable for making staves, bows, shields and so forth.
  I'm not entirely opposed to another way to check, but the current one was pretty well thought out before it was implemented, and the amount that a druid or ranger can forage is probably not going to increase in either case.
 

 As it stands, a Druid would need to wait -6- hours to succeed in wood foraging. How many CNR respawns of Hickory, Oak, etc is that?

 This is not accurate. It's possible, but it's also possible for less time...or more time. Again, the key thing to remember is that druids and rangers really shouldn't be hauling lots of wood from the forest.

[Chnmmr]

Well as it stands, Druids and Rangers which depend heavily on wood for their shields, staffs, arrows, bows, etc, can't craft their own as wood gathering is far too difficult for them and instead need to pay crafters to do so.  How is it within the druidic tenants to trade with people who -cut- trees down for their wood?

Druids can only use wooded weapons (except scimitars and sickles)

Druids can't gather wood easily at all

No wood, no crafting, no crafting, no equipment

Therefore we need to trade with those who defile the forest by chopping trees down to get our equipment?  How is that druidic at all?  I understand the rp aspects of it being harder, but I don't think its fair at all for a class that is really expected to be self sufficient to have -such- difficulty in gathering the basic raw materials to -be- self sufficient.

Besides, the very nature of the crafting system forces people to consume vast amounts of resources to get anywhere in the craft.

[Dorganath]

I would offer as a counter-argument that, at least in the case of druids, woodcrafting is perhaps not the best pursuit. Rather than contracting with someone who defiles the forest to obtain the wood, perhaps it is more fitting to contract with a woodcrafter to build the weapons in particular from wood that the druid would provide.
  Rangers don't have as great of a restriction, RP-wise, on the chopping of trees, so in terms of bows and arrows, it's well within their ability, as long as RP is maintained.
  There are several ways to RP this.  My druid character has actually interrogated a prospective crafter to make sure that said crafter had respect for the forest and was not wasteful in his/her craft. He also supplies his own materials whenever possible.  
  I'll say again but in a different way:  A lumberjack should be able to pull more usable wood out of a forest than someone walking around picking up fallen branches.
  I and the rest of the team are aware that foraging is not equitable to chopping, nor was it ever meant to be. We understand that not all crafts are appropriate for all character classes.
  Again...not opposed to a slightly different way of doing things, but it has to be balanced and in keeping with how the system was intended to be.

[Rayenoir]

Chnmmr - 12/15/2006  10:15 AM

Therefore we need to trade with those who defile the forest by chopping trees down to get our equipment?  How is that druidic at all?  I understand the rp aspects of it being harder, but I don't think its fair at all for a class that is really expected to be self sufficient to have -such- difficulty in gathering the basic raw materials to -be- self sufficient.

Why do you assume that anyone not-druid is going to be *defiling* a forest by chopping down trees?  If you have that thought in mind, then accompany people who you wish to have craft for you and RP that you are pointing out where and what to cut for proper pruning.

Or use the foraging system and... be patient.  

[Chnmmr]

at least in the case of druids, woodcrafting is perhaps not the best pursuit.

I do not wish to sound rude or anything like that, so please tell me what -is- the best pursuit for druids?

Smithing? No
Wood gathering? No.. or rather very poor at it.
Tailoring? If a druids can get themself to kill many animals?  I suppose...
Alchemy? All those plants we need to pick, all the gems we need to mine to get the dusts.  Seems very destructive to me.
Cooking? Killing animals for their meat, picking plants -yet- again to cook, and do the many many hours of practice to get anywhere.
Scribing? Needs wood for the paper.  Plants and animal products for the ink.
Fishing? Killing animals... admitedly for food.
Carpentry?  Needs wood again.

I don't think I need to go on really, its enough to make my point.  Lets also remember this sentence from the Folian S'pae section:

Folian approves of those resourceful enough to carve – often literally – their weapons out of what nature gives them.

But again, because of the very nature of the crafting system you -have- to use up a lot of resources.  And when wood is hard to gather you're in trouble...

Followers of Katia usually use large wooden staves, which are actually strong, almost straight straight branches “given” by trees. They also often use longbows.

Again its essentially saying 'be self suffient', not 'gather wood and give it to someone else to craft for you'.

Rely not on others for your survival. Live free.

Kithairien quote.  Again, self sufficiency, not 'find a crafter to make it for you'.

And so... druids of those faiths are expected to be selfsufficient.  And thats very hard to do when the crafting system is resource heavy and druids can only attempt to gather wood every 90 minutes with a low chance of success.

[Dorganath]

Trust me, I understand what you're saying.
  In my personal opinion, and I've played druids in both PnP and NWN for 25 or so years (yes, really), including one druid who follows Folian here on Layonara, druids don't have to be all about "don't kill the animals". Let me cite some very real-world examples:
  * Hunting of animals by humans (i.e. deer) is considered actually healthy to the populations of said animals to keep them from overpopulating. * Forest fires, generally demonized when people cause them due to negligence or arson, are actually good for the forests, as they clear out the deadwood and make room for new growth. Nature does this all on its own using things like lightning strikes. * There is a significant difference between someone who hunts an animal for one particular resource provided by that animal and leaves the rest to rot. One can make use of the skins/pelts, the meat provided from the muscles, the bones, the horns (if present), the internal organs and probably a few things I've forgotten, which is a very efficient use of a creature that has been killed. Contrast that with poachers who may hunt an animal for only one of those things, leaving the rest to waste. *While this is not a commonly-accepted concept, people are creatures of nature as much as insects and birds and cows and bears and fish. A huge section of the animal/insect kingdom survives by consuming other animals/insects. Some are omnivores and others are herbivores, but the point is: Nature consumes nature. People are no different.
  On the last one, druids are people, and they need to eat. They eat what nature provides, be it a bag full of nuts and roots, a handful of berries, or a shank of pork. A druid would not, for example, go and kill every boar in a particular area in one go, but he would perhaps kill one and use its resources as best he could.
  Now, regarding what crafts a druid can do: It's true that options are limited for druids, however several can be justified pretty easily both through RP and without violating dogma at all. And with respect, don't really agree with the idea you put forth that druids cannot pick plants. Remember that what is seen and can be harvested in-game is a small representation of what is ready to be picked. One is not, for example, clearing the High Forest of Aloe each time he/she goes to pick it. Those are just the places where it is most ready to be picked. Due to game mechanics reasons, they just appear in the same place every time.
  * Cooking: I don't see how it's wasteful to pick plants and convert them into food. One can also become a very accomplished food crafter without killing a single animal.  * Fishing: Why not? As long as the extras are not discarded. Fish too are subject to over-population, and druids need to eat. * Alchemy: Why not? The flours come from food crafting, the plants grow back if not over-harvested, gems are just another one of nature's bounties. Again, the druid could craft these things out of need rather than advancement in a craft. * Enchanting: Don't see why this wouldn't be possible * Infusing: Don't see why this wouldn't be possible
  Druids, in my opinion, are among the most restricted classes in the game, and that's true for D&D in general. Yet in these restrictions are some very interesting possibilities for RP.

[CHAzz]

Something else to think about in terms of wood, most dead wood would be unsuitable for crafting into weapons and armor.  It can be carved into a neat knickknack for your living room, but having already dried in an uncontrolled environment, with no curing whatsoever, would make it brittle and weak, you need to take green wood and then treat it to make sturdy weapons and shields.  And as Dorgonath said, to quote Tool "This is necessary...Life feeds on life", its about living in balance with nature, not trying to remove yourself from all connections with it on the offchance you might accidentally swallow a bug.

[Faldred]

Dorganath - 12/15/2006  11:40 AM
One can also become a very accomplished food crafter without killing a single animal.

From my experience, you have to be a pretty decent level cook before you can even think about trying a roast, anyway.

[Falonthas]

hmmm time to respond
for armor i have drogo provide what is needed to his tailor friend, hides silk cotton what is needed but not excess
for food he hunts or forages and cooks over a fire or picks fruit or berries or fishes and cooks them
or sometimes he has them raw doesnt matter hes wild anyway
his staff was found and shaped by his own hands he traded for the magic to go on it when he had found something someone else wanted
his other items he either gathered the parts to create them and had his friends make them who are all some sort of crafter or for his magic ones he used the coin he earned from helping

some things come from when you least expect them too


he still has coin saved on leaves rolled up and hidden in the bank and the man inside makes surethey stay safe

for him to be called less then druid or having violated his oaths not hardly

to tend the forest and protect the fragile harmony of the wilds you have to be able to counteract what poachers and hunters and other enemies may bring in their goals of destruction

they will use magic and spells and fancy armor and weapons
i use what my oaths allow and then augment them with my skills to protect those under my care

am i a tank to kill everything
no
but im a cheetah with shocking claws and teeth that is very hard to hit in a toe to toe conflict

we gather and forage
are we as good as choppers and miners
perhaps perhaps not

but we are druids so why does it matter

[Chnmmr]

Very well then, I shall take more advantage of the bounty of nature since it is an essentially infintisimal resource (ignoring the fact that the clounds are always covering the sky, the sun is blocked out and it is often quite dark and providing poor growing conditions for everything.)

you need to take green wood and then treat it to make sturdy weapons and shields. And as Dorgonath said, to quote Tool "This is necessary...Life feeds on life", its about living in balance with nature, not trying to remove yourself from all connections with it on the offchance you might accidentally swallow a bug.

 If I was capable of gathering wood I would.  2 days I've been foraging for wood, about 10 attempts... no successes so far.

Alright.. alright... you made your points.  I don't agree with them at all, I think its adjusting druids to fit with the server as it stands, but meh.  I shall gather more gems, take more plants, kill more fish, more animals knowing that its alright for druids to do so here... acting in a way I think is -very- undruid like.

A druid would not, for example, go and kill every boar in a particular area in one go, but he would perhaps kill one and use its resources as best he could.

Sadly to get anywhere in crafting you have to do just that.

Druids, in my opinion, are among the most restricted classes in the game, and that's true for D&D in general.  Yet in these restrictions are some very interesting possibilities for RP.

No... Druids in D&D are not anywhere as restricted as they are here.  Druids in D&D can wear metal armour if they follow certain faiths, they have a multitude of spells that have been removed from their spell list that clerics and mages still have.  In D&D druids are -the most powerful class, here they are nowhere near.

I don't want druids to be powerful, I don't -want- to be powerful.  I just want to be able to make my own staff... or even better like the Katian section says: A staff is 'given' to me.  As it stands its not really possible unless one is willing to spend days in the hopes of getting a bit of wood.

Whatever happened t nature 'watching' over its guardians?  Providing for its guardians?  It doesnt.  Druids are so heavily restricted that one could be a better druid (defender of nature) by playing a cleric of a nature diety.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Chnmmr - 12/15/2006  6:11 PM

I don't agree with them at all, I think its adjusting druids to fit with the server as it stands, but meh.

Respectfully, that's their job.

[Dorganath]

I think you misunderstand me.
  I'm not telling you to play against the way you feel is "correct" to RP your druid. I'm only offering possible alternatives. But if you don't feel they're right, then please do not RP in that manner. Though understand that RP and IC choices will ultimately affect what your character will and will not do. If you want to limit your druid to not consuming plants and not killing any animals for any reasons, then that is your call.
  My own druid character has a few ranks in food crafting and even fewer in gem craftng...that's about it. I doubt he'll ever be much of a crafter ever.
  One last note on game mechanics....
  There's only so much we can do within NWN. And while the skies are filled with clouds, it would take a huge effort for us to go through and tweak all of CNR appropriately to reflect that.

[darkstorme]

Dorganath - 12/15/2006  6:28 PM
...it would take a huge effort for us to go through and tweak all of CNR appropriately to reflect that.

And also, the cries of "Unfair" would probably resound server-wide.  

My suggestion would be that if you're a druid, crafting isn't the way to go (though you could probably gemcraft and stay in character.  Druids respect nature, and the method of mineral extraction used in Layo is non-invasive.)  Druids are highly restrictive, even in their background given in the Handbook.  You knew that coming in.

[trillex]

My character wears and crafts armors made from animals. I do, however, roleplay it. It would be a waste to just let an animal rot since the meat and skin can provide food and warmth for people as well as animals.

[Praylor Falcus]

Hmmm druids complaining about not being able to use natures bounty.........most interesting


As any druid that spews this fuzzy dogma, and has one scrape of leather, one splinter of wood or one speck of metal or gems on thier person are pretend druids........oh wait this is a game and this stuff is not real..........so take what you can, and if you see one of these fuzzy druids givin a fella a hard time in game ....by all means walk up and point out they are wearing dead animal hides and carrying dead wood from trees and they are eating the very nature they are trying to brow beat some poor person about ....druids like it when you point out thier hypocritical nature, It helps them grow and become one with the maddness