A friendly reminder on luring and dragging...

[Tanman]

This is the page that you are after.

http://nwn.layonara.com/Player%20Rules

Under Exploiting. I think that is the closest you are going to get in terms of rules.

[Pseudonym]

Dorganath - 2/1/2007  11:28 AM    

lonnarin - 1/31/2007  4:54 PM
    Common Sense.

 Yes!

 *Pseudonym wonders how many posts, how many megabytes, how much wasted time might have been saved if those two words were stickied at the top of each and every forum category.*  Common sense and courtesy, they go a long way.  *Pseudonym fears he is turning into Stephen, unable to gaze upon a forum topic without passing comment or offering opinion.*

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

*Laughs heartily.* Honestly, I WAS going to stay away from this thread, but no, Pseudo, you had to entice me.

Anyhow, my thoughts are honestly mixed on the subject of luring... Dragging monsters to NPCs is just awful, though even I've done it once or twice in my time. (Three times, actually.)

Luring, though. I can understand reasons why it's both an unrealistic, exploitative tactic, as well as a perfectly reasonable, realistic one. On the one hand, creatures' perception radii aren't so realistic, considering that all it would take is "Grunt, grunt, I see a baddie!" to bring a whole string of monsters after the PC. On the other hand, if all a monster is supposedly noticing is something odd and unidentifiable, they could always wander off... Especially if the other monsters are all scattered out. Drawing out scouts is effectively just "luring" the monsters furthest away from a widely-scattered force, and vice versa.

I'm not sure if that all makes sense, but... It's been a long day.

I've never really seen anything particularly "wrong" with luring, but I'll keep it in mind to not do it. *Chuckles.*

[Frelinder]

An example of realistic tactic.

In many cases.. The spwan/group of enemies is guarding something, like a camp, house. Or maybe CNR like ore, deposits. If then PC gets some of the groups attention and make them follow him its make perfect sence that not the whole group would follow him and leave the Camp/ ore unguarded.. so if a group of 6-8 enemies standing there it is totaly okey to get 2-3 to follow you and kill them first and then take on the rest.

The argument that the enemies that decided to stay and guard the camp can hear the battle and come helping I don't buy.. this because distance in game and in reality and also time in game and reality is different things..

When luring a few monsters from the group to follow you, you get close enough for them to spot you.. that should be about 500-800 meters in reality in an open field.. atleast.. then you get them to follow you away from the group so they can't either hear you or spot you.. thats about 1000-1500 meters.. In game it looks like you are standing 10 meters away and having an hard battle.. But in fact there are 1000 meters away.

Atleast this is how I see the world of layo.. I mean when I travel from Prantz to Sauderia it takes 10 min and it looks like it could be about 3000 meters.. but in fact it takes a day to travell that distance and it is 10 miles.. not 3000 meters..

[Gulnyr]

Frelinder - 2/1/2007  9:15 AM

The argument that the enemies that decided to stay and guard the camp can hear the battle and come helping I don't buy.. this because distance in game and in reality and also time in game and reality is different things..

When luring a few monsters from the group to follow you, you get close enough for them to spot you.. that should be about 500-800 meters in reality in an open field.. atleast.. then you get them to follow you away from the group so they can't either hear you or spot you.. thats about 1000-1500 meters.. In game it looks like you are standing 10 meters away and having an hard battle.. But in fact there are 1000 meters away.

In the last thread on this (I think it was the last one, anyway), there were comments about the size of areas.  Ed said this in response to a post saying caves were supposed to be huge areas:

That's not correct. If we wanted to build huge caves, we'd use large areas and make them huge caves. Most caves are not thousands of feet, and on a side note, sounds carries and echoes very well underground so everyone would hear sounds of battle. It's just that NWN isn't programmed to handle that.

The thread continues later explaining some of the limitations of NWN on area sizes, so that some areas (like caves) are probably scaled correctly and are as big as they look, while other areas are not to scale (like some outdoor areas) because it's just not possible.  Some outdoor areas probably are to scale, and just represent a small patch of the land between points A and B.

So, your explanation of luring a few away only works sometimes in some places, and there's no particular way to know when it should or shouldn't apply.  It's probably a lot easier to stick with Dorganath's simple rules from above than try to over-think things and come up with explanations and/or excuses for every situation.  

Dorganath - 1/31/2007 12:46 AM

"If you cannot manage an entire spawn, consider not taking it on at all."

or...

If it cannot be handled safely alone without exploiting the AI and the relatively low perceptual range of the monsters, then do not attempt it solo.  

I'd repost the common sense one, but the only thing common about it is that everyone has his own definition of "sense."  That's why we need the occasional friendly reminder on luring and dragging.

[Frelinder]

I totaly agree about that some places are in fact as big as they are meant to be... and some supposed to be alot bigger.. But for example the forest of mists is not just a few trees.. is an large forrest.. if getting a few giants attention and make them follow you and then kill them out of sight from the others they can't hear you either.. When a PC is standing infront of a spawn and they can't see, and probably not hear him either..thats because he is to far away, and not because of that all creatures are near sighted.. so even the game mecanisms do infact proclaim that the distance are longer then it actually appears.

I'm not arguing about this to justify luring.. I just wan't to point out that it do make sence and that its not unrealistic to kill a group out of sight from other enemies without them notice it."
Dorganath - 1/31/2007 12:46 AM

I also agree about this and one should use common sence..

"If you cannot manage an entire spawn, consider not taking it on at all."

or...

If it cannot be handled safely alone without exploiting the AI and the relatively low perceptual range of the monsters, then do not attempt it solo. "

[Dorganath]

By all rights, a giant would be able to see farther than a person on the ground. But as you approach a giant spawn, you can see all of them before any of them can see you.
  Therein lies the key to this whole mess.
  The perception range of most creatures in-game is artificially short, which is why one creature in a spawn may be able to see an approaching person or party while the others in the spawn may not, even if there are no physical obstructions to their line-of-sight and they are all relatively clustered around the same point.

[ycleption]

I am extremely confused. . .
obviously, given the variety of responses and opinions here the "common sense" rubric is less effective than it should be.
The dragging issue I think is fairly clear. I did this once, and immediately (both IC and OOC) realized how idiotic it was, and I will not repeat it.
The luring issue I think is extremely fuzzy. For instance, a few levels ago, I would go into the Hlint crypts, and I would kill zombies by using a ranged weapon, running away any time they got close. I never thought this was inappropriate; zombies are slow, so that seemed the best tactic. Is this considered exploitative? it's certainly luring, but I don't see it as a game exploit. What about against creatures such as spiders, that don't reveal themselves until you get close? I have made a habit of killing creatures around spiders with a ranged weapon, so as not to upset the spiders, before rushing in. From what I've read here, this would be considered an exploit, is that correct?
I've read the server rules, and I thought I was applying common sense. I realize that you can't create rules that will apply to all situations, but perhaps if you could give a few examples it would be helpful, especially to those of us who are rather new.

[Dorganath]

Luring is fuzzy, you're right. As I said above, there's a fine line between luring and good tactics.
  The examples you give, in my own personal opinion, do not constitute luring. They are tactical. If you're using a ranged weapon and the enemy gets too close, of course you're going to run away a bit so that your weapon is more effective, etc.
  Getting the attention of a group, bringing them back to a better fighting spot, or perhaps across a trap, tricking them to go through the crossfire of archers, adding distance between you and an enemy to keep from getting hit...these are all tactics that make RP sense and logical sense.
  Moving toward a group of creatures just close enough for one of them to see you (and not the other that is standing next to him), bringing that creature to you and fighting just out of visual range of any others makes absolutely no RP or logical sense. It's meta-gaming at the very least, because you, the player, knows you can do that. Your character should assume differently.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Running ahead of slow creatures is called Kiting, (like the kite that you fly), actually, and isn't against server rules, as Dorg said.

A question, though... Or, rather, a scenario to run past which doesn't work with Pyyran any longer.

Mr. Stealth sneaks up to a group of monsters, in Stealth Mode. Now, his H/MS ranks are pretty high, and it would take a nice, lucky roll from one of those monsters to see him. Mr. Stealth waits until one of the monsters does roll that lucky Spot, and sneaks back to his group of DOOMDEATHDESTRUCTION fighters, trailing the curious/angry monster behind. The others stay where they are, having not spotted the curiosity that Mr. Stealth presented.

The question is, yea or nae?

[darkstorme]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/1/2007  1:58 PM

Running ahead of slow creatures is called Kiting, (like the kite that you fly), actually, and isn't against server rules, as Dorg said.

A question, though... Or, rather, a scenario to run past which doesn't work with Pyyran any longer.

Mr. Stealth sneaks up to a group of monsters, in Stealth Mode. Now, his H/MS ranks are pretty high, and it would take a nice, lucky roll from one of those monsters to see him. Mr. Stealth waits until one of the monsters does roll that lucky Spot, and sneaks back to his group of DOOMDEATHDESTRUCTION fighters, trailing the curious/angry monster behind. The others stay where they are, having not spotted the curiosity that Mr. Stealth presented.

The question is, yea or nae?

Myself, I would say that's dependent on the INT of the enemies in question.  For kobolds, goblins, ogre magi, and the like (anything with a decent INT score), the curious monster who spotted Mr. Stealth would say "Oh, look, fellows, an adventurer trying to sneak around.  Let's kill him!"

If it were, however, a stag beetle, or a zombie, or anything suitably mindless and uncommunicative, I'd say that's fair game, rather than an exploit.

Ogres are a maybe.

[Gulnyr]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/1/2007  1:58 PM

The question is, yea or nae?

Turn it around.

Mr. Stealthy Enemy sneaks up to a group of characters, in Stealth Mode. Now, his H/MS ranks are pretty high, and it would take a nice, lucky roll from one of those characters to see him. Mr. Enemy waits until one of the characters does roll that lucky Spot, and sneaks back to his group of...  Wait a minute.  

Even the dumbest half giant has a good chance to ask, "Who dat?" if he spots someone sneaking about.  The enemies our characters fight aren't utterly stupid, and aren't likely to just wander off after somebody without giving out a cry of alarm or excitement, even though NWN makes dumb stuff like that happen.  This scenario sounds like abuse of the game to me.

[LightlyFrosted]

While not vindicating the idea of luring or dragging, I should like to point out that there are a number of times/locations where the spawning mechanism acts to the detriment of players as well.  The example springing most readilly to my mind is that of the group of ogres/trolls/even inconveniently placed goblins that are 'invisible' until a party member crosses a certain threshhold.  Playing a mage, I can easily take out a group of goblins - provided of course that I see them before I'm a mage-shaped pincushion.    While I recognize that spawn triggers are finitely manipulable, I should also like to point out that if one seeks true 'realism', one must remember that the flaws in the system work both ways.

While this is not, as previously mentioned, an excuse to lure, drag, or otherwise manipulate the system in such a way as to reduce the 'realism' of the world or to endanger other Player Characters (or exploit the setting), things like the 'clumping' of monsters are simply a part of the game engine.  Whether or not there is a reasonable ooc explanation for them all standing in a neat little bunch, there is only so much that this can be avoided - and a throng of monsters moving towards you to kill you can be just as lethal against you as a well-placed fireball against them.

[Dorganath]

LightlyFrosted - 2/1/2007  2:08 PM  While not vindicating the idea of luring or dragging, I should like to point out that there are a number of times/locations where the spawning mechanism acts to the detriment of players as well.  The example springing most readilly to my mind is that of the group of ogres/trolls/even inconveniently placed goblins that are 'invisible' until a party member crosses a certain threshhold.

 Ever hear of an ambush?
  I'm not sure why you think that spawns are supposed to be purely beneficial to the players/characters, but that is surely not the case. We do try and keep things fair and try to make sure that they don't spawn directly on top of a person or party, but really, the monsters are out to kill you, not stand around and play pat-a-cake until you poke enough holes in them that they fall over dead.
  Spawns are not meant to be beneficial. They're meant to be a challenge. If you meet that challenge and prevail, you get a positive reward. If not, you don't, and sometimes you get a negative reward. That's the nature of things.
  Nowhere did we ever say that any one person should be able to beat any one spawn of appropriate CR at any time. The world is a dangerous place...be prepared.

[Tanman]

It is against the server's rules to drag monsters and hostile NPCs back to towns and other PCs when your character gets in over his/her head so that someone else can take care of the creatures you cannot.

To give an example of being inconsiderate or breaking server rules, when my character logged into the server I got started  into the safe area of the Goblin wastelands. The place where the campfire is. Instantly my character was besieged by dwarven mercenaries. Heaven knows where they come from...the only place that I know where they come from is in the forests near the Haven's. If they can be dragged *that* far....thats certainly breaking the rules. Thankfully I survived and had no DTs

[darkstorme]

The nearest Dwarven Mercenaries are next to the Road to Fort Llast.  The dragging is still inexcusable, but at least it was only one AT.

[ColtCommando]

Okay I havent read every respose in this thread, so my question may have been answered in some way previously, and that is the case, sorry for wasting youre time with this
 
 
 Anyhow I think my question revolves around a piece of this puzzle that hasent been discussed....
 
 
 Okay here is my probelm. On the East server Ft. Mirtix is like, the main central hub for adventurers. Most times everyone either meets up in Mirtix to head out adventuring, or the party dissbands in Mirtix, and everyone logs off there.
 
 Now the only way that I know back to Central or West from Mirtix, is by way of Arnax. Now if you have a high enough Hide/MS, or if you have the ability to cast invisibility (or something similar) you can go between Mirtix and Arnax mostly withought a care in the world. But I dont have either luxury.
 
 
 There are only two area on the way that you absolutly have NO CHOICE but to run within an enemy spawns perceptual range. This would the Landalise plains (heading North, after you cross the river, there is no way to get to the next AT withought running within the spawns perceptual range). And the other would be the next area (if heading north), the Cloven Mountain (after you cross the bridge there is no way to get down the stairs witch will eventaly lead to the next AT withough running within the giants perceptual range).
 
 So my problem arrises when I adventure with a party all night long and everyone is so tired that once we get back to Mirtix everyone just rests then logs. Then I come back on the next day, there is no one on and I am stuck in Mirtix.
 
 
 Now I guess the argument could be made that I should have had a caster hit me with an Invis before they logged, when the party was dissbanding the night before. But there is not always a caster still with us when everyone is ready to go (like they had to leave in the middle of a dungeon, or on the way back to mirtix for some RL issue) witch happens ALOT on my trips through east. Suffice to say sometimes (not all the time) I end up stuck in Mirtix withought a single other soul on the server.
 
 Now I see myself as having three options:
 
 1. Use a different charector of mine to log into west or central, and find a player I know that is willing to come invis to Mirtix, and then escort me back.
 Obviously this will not always be a viable option.
 
 2. Use a different char to find a GM logged into one of the servers and/or use IRC to find a GM that is available to just port me back to Arnax, or whatever. Obviously this is not always a viable option.
 
 3. Use my super duper monk speed, coupled with a good suply of aquisition belts to just run back. When running back I will end up having at least one Elite Giant Crusher of whatever clan (a particularly nasty casting giant if any party running through east were to get jumped at a transition by it, while traveling comepletely unbuffeed and unprepared) follow me to the North AT on the Landalise plains. Fortunatly there is a river on the plains so that neither the Bloodstone Forces spawn that I have to pass, nor the giant that may still be following me can cross, and after that im home free, no more spawns I have to run within perceptual range of.
 
 
 Now my question is this:
 
 If both option one, and two are unavailable, can I execute option three?
 
 Or am I in clear violation of server rules, and I should NEVER attempt option three?
 
 In witch case I cannot do anything until the former two options become available...
 
 
 Anyhow, looking forward to youre input....

[LynnJuniper]

This brings up an interesting point.I would vote for Option 4:

Place a 1000 True Portal in Miritix that leads to either Arnax or Wayfare.

[Chongo]

Bear in mind that with the many changes to the landscape in the next update, travel points are changing somewhat... so... don't sweat it.

[darkstorme]

The rule I go by is if I'm left stranded, I either send a bird to a friend of my character's and ask for help out of the jam, or have Kell/Therise do his/her level best to get by whatever's blocking the way.

The understanding I've operated under since I joined the server is that dragging is never acceptable under any circumstances, to avoid complications later when someone says "Well, if X could run past a spawn he knows will follow him, why can't Y run away from a spawn that proved too powerful for him?"

(This is also why Kell keeps a Stardust of Shadon on him at all times. )