A friendly reminder on luring and dragging...

[Dorganath]

Guys...this comes up now and again, and it seems the time has come again.
  It is against the server's rules to lure monsters to pick them off one-by-one.
  It is against the server's rules to drag monsters and hostile NPCs back to towns and other PCs when your character gets in over his/her head so that someone else can take care of the creatures you cannot.
  Now, every time this comes up, some people respond with one or more of a number of reasons why they don't agree with this perspective. We've heard them all, trust me. Some of the top ones, and the list is by no means limited to these, are:
  * Why should my character stand around and die when he would and could run to safety? * Why should my character stand around and die when there's (some NPC) there who can kill the monster for me? * Spawns weren't where they were supposed to be. * They'd be too hard for my character to kill if I didn't lure them one at a time. * People should know that the world is dangerous and just be ready for it, even while sitting in town.
  The list goes on.
  The fact is, we ask you not to do it because it's selfish and does not take other players and their characters, and in many cases one's own alignment, into account. You may think there's no harm. Unfortunately, that's not true. Here are just a couple examples from yesterday alone:
  http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34138&posts=3&start=1
  and
  http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34143&posts=2
  The latter is a loss of items that probably represents many RL weeks of work in terms of gathering and crafting lost because someone brought hostile NPCs into what should be a safe area and distracted the AI by running near someone's ox. This clearly led to one very upset player.
  Be aware of the consequences of your actions.

[Zhofe]

On luring: Is it against the rules for a group of people to lure a group of enemies to a safer fighting spot, so as to not continue to spawn more enemies as the fight rages deeper into the area?

On Dragging: Is it alright to run around in circles area from entrances and exits in the hopes that some friendly PC will come and save you?


Not questioning the authority of the rules, but rather if these situations are violations. The first I think is a rather reasonable, (and RPable) tactic, but that is subject to the DM team.

The second is a bit of an abuse of the NWN engine ... but is a much better alternative to standing and dieing, or luring the enemies to places where other people could be endangered.

[darkwulf365]

*Has a response to this but will elucidate later*

[hawklen]

luring? You mean people dont just rush into 18 giants and fight them? *looks around confused*

[Praylor Falcus]

Well i hope some one makes this understandable this time. As from what i heard today DDC is the only allowable tactic that one can use.

[hawklen]

DDC(drunken dwarven charge)? *fond memories* I remember when beginning layo, coining that up. dont know if it was used before I came or not..

[Dorganath]

Praylor Falcus - 1/30/2007  11:35 PM  Well i hope some one makes this understandable this time. As from what i heard today DDC is the only allowable tactic that one can use.

 To quote myself:
 

 
  It is against the server's rules to lure monsters to pick them off one-by-one.
  It is against the server's rules to drag monsters and hostile NPCs back to towns and other PCs when your character gets in over his/her head so that someone else can take care of the creatures you cannot.

 Can I put this another, simpler way? Perhaps "If you cannot manage an entire spawn, consider not taking it on at all."
  or...
  If it cannot be handled safely alone without exploiting the AI and the relatively low perceptual range of the monsters, then do not attempt it solo.
  There is no realistic reason why one creature would not notice the sounds of battle nearby... yet this is exactly what happens when people intentionally lure from the edge of NPC perception.  
  Do mistakes happen? Sure. Do people stumble into a new area and find themselves face-to-face with more than they can handle? Sure. That's not the point, nor is it the problem.
  The problem comes when people knowingly exploit the holes in monster AI in order to artificially make the fight easier.
  The problem comes when people knowingly run back to some NPC or other friendly creature to have them manage what they could not.

[solarina]

when i was last on alot of the new folks were leading mobs into the town and not caring when told that these mobs can and do kill peoples oxens because of there actions. yes sadly some just dont care . I watch over my oxen and where i park her more carefully now.

[Dorganath]

Let me clarify one thing regarding luring...
  I'm not suggesting that one not use sound tactics in confronting monsters. By all means, use the most appropriate, realistic tactic. But when a group of 5 or 6 creatures are standing close together, and you inch forward just enough so that one of them sees you and the others do not, that strays beyond tactics and into exploitation.
  The so-called "DDC" is in fact not the only allowed tactic, but perhaps it may take some thought, preparation and an appropriate party to figure out what other tactics are available.
  And as a general statement:
  These requests we make aren't unreasonable. They're here to help protect the fun and spirit of the game world. When a few people exploit or abuse, everyone else has to deal with the fallout from it. We're asking only for respect of the game world and respect of your fellow players.

[Tanman]

Dorganath is right. There are strategies that involve the use of varied classes in parties. So for example clerics, mages (wizards and sorcerers) and fighters. Its not just a matter of a bunch of fighters, going "Hold, block, fight" Rinse and repeat. I have done many varied tactics with parties and it makes things so much easier when put to plan.

[Nehetsrev]

I'm almost hesitant to post his, but here are a couple tactics I've used or seen used myself that I suppose could also be considered exploitive of the poor AI in NWN.

1) The Run-by - this I've used to get past several large spawns at once, usually of Ogres.  How it works is you run past the spawn close enough to get the attention of all the Ogre, but because Ogre Berserkers spend a moment getting themselves worked up into a rage a few forget what is was they were getting angry about when you pass out of their sight, the rest will chase you down though, and this usually amounts to about half of the Ogres that were spawned.  Best tactic then is to find a corner, doorway, or stand in the narrow gap between a column and a wall where only 2-4 Ogres can reach you at once to fight these big fellows off.  In essence you're using their size against them, as well as their relative stupidity in the case of those 'forgetful' ones.  One bit of advice is that you better be sure you're not too low AC-wise or you'll get clobbered bad by even just one or two orges.

2) The Shooting Gallery - This one I've seen used in groups with more than one ranged attacker and at least a fighter or two.  Again, a whole spawn, or at least a large portion of a spawn is engaged by the fighter(s) first, then the ranged atackers alternate their firing pattern so that one fires, then the other, then the first again.  The AI gets confused trying to decide who to atack and will often run back and forth between the two sets of ranged attackers, never quite reaching one before being distracted by the other again.  Meanwhile the fighter also works in the middle to distract any in the spawn who might stray too close to the shooters.

Either way, these tactics shouldn't be used by inexperienced characters who cannot handle at least two or three of the creatures on their own, simply because they don't always work exactly the way you hope, but they usually do.  But at least they're not luring.

Personally I think it's just as much an exploit of the AI to memorize the exact locations, numbers, tactics, and spell-casting progressions of spawns and use that information to take them on as though your character(s) are pre-cognitive.  But that's likely something that's rather unavoidable to some extent if you travel the same areas many times.

[Hellblazer]

An other way is just to make shure that noe jsut one follow yo but you have at least 2-4, even giants you can do this if you find a suiteable spot to defend. Also Making sure you are not along when you do this takes away the danger but puts more danger as the spawn get taugher.
  The shooting galery as Nehetsreve said is a good tactics but by my experience with rain, both archer can fire at the same time if the ogre is dead in the middle of them he will just turn to each arrow that gets him. Warning, that tactics does not work with every monsters out there and not on all Ogres.

[lonnarin]

Ideally we should all drop our weapons on the ground, lagspawn into a frenzy and roll 1s vs the soul mother.  that's how Drizzt would do it.

[darkstorme]

Just my two coppers on tactics - choke points are your friends.

Edited for clarity:

A solid strategy is to have someone (preferably someone fast who can still take a hit or two from the creatures in question) enter the room with said creatures.  He or she may then attract the creatures' attention in whatever fashion suits their fancy (fireballs, arrows, Hammer of the Gods, obscene hand gestures...).  They then turn and run like the wind, down back through the doorway from whence they came.

The hapless (pick one) ogres/giants/halflings/renders/vampires/badgers follow, eager for blood... and run, one by one, into the pair of melee fighters arrayed on either side of the door, the pair of ranged (preferably rogue) fighters who already have their bows out, and a mage, cleric, or combinations thereof.  Monsters die, good triumphs, and it's Iron Hammer time!  As long as the first enemy (or two) block the rest from approaching, and the melee fighters can keep them pinned in the doorway, this strategy is generally sound.  (It can be wise to keep clerics next to your melee fighters, if there's serious risk of damage being dealt out.)

[Praylor Falcus]

OH, well that clears that up.   *rolls eyes*

[lonnarin]

Nehetsrev - 1/31/2007  5:54 AM

1) The Run-by - this I've used to get past several large spawns at once, usually of Ogres.  How it works is you run past the spawn close enough to get the attention of all the Ogre, but because Ogre Berserkers spend a moment getting themselves worked up into a rage a few forget what is was they were getting angry about when you pass out of their sight, the rest will chase you down though, and this usually amounts to about half of the Ogres that were spawned.  Best tactic then is to find a corner, doorway, or stand in the narrow gap between a column and a wall where only 2-4 Ogres can reach you at once to fight these big fellows off.  In essence you're using their size against them, as well as their relative stupidity in the case of those 'forgetful' ones.  One bit of advice is that you better be sure you're not too low AC-wise or you'll get clobbered bad by even just one or two orges.

2) The Shooting Gallery - This one I've seen used in groups with more than one ranged attacker and at least a fighter or two.  Again, a whole spawn, or at least a large portion of a spawn is engaged by the fighter(s) first, then the ranged atackers alternate their firing pattern so that one fires, then the other, then the first again.  The AI gets confused trying to decide who to atack and will often run back and forth between the two sets of ranged attackers, never quite reaching one before being distracted by the other again.  Meanwhile the fighter also works in the middle to distract any in the spawn who might stray too close to the shooters.

Both tactics assume the AI to be -3.  Case one: the ogres are just getting VERY angry and standing still a while hyperventilating.  Case two: the ogres have such bad Attention Deficit Disorder that they remember only the last arrow in their hide.

Honestly, luring one, two or 3 monsters off is no different RP-wise than being a sneaky killer ala any number of games that use "stealth kills".  The flip-side of Dorg's argument that no monster would NOT hear an ally die nearby is contradicted by the assumption that there is absolutely no way to kill a man without him screaming loud enough for his friends to hear.  Snap a neck, slit a throat, sap to the back of the head and all you have are a few gurgles and a plop.  NWN as it stands simply does not factor these in, making every rogue character SCREAM at the top of his lungs every time he performs a sneak attack, alerting every monster in a half mile radius.  That's equally as "bad RP" as luring one at a time that strays from the group, thought he AI cant help metagaming its perception of PCs in an area radius.

I agree luring one at a time is cheap, but as stated numerous times in a plethora of threads on the same topic before, two or three at a time is fine, so long as you're not luring to the extent that EVERY battle is a pushover with your character suffering zero damage.  The difference being that if you do the same thing over and over with no challenge for the same xp, it's cheap, whereas skinofthe teeth pacing and chokeholds is fair game.

By pacing I mean lure one or two, and specifically advance so that as you kill them, you get a steady stream of one or two more joining in the battle as you go along.  Also killing things around the corner so that they DO scream and alert a few friends to join is good too.  Keep a good pace like you're running a gauntlet vs having a one on one duel with the whole tribe and time enough to heal up in between each bout.

Common Sense.

[stragen]

There is another technique well suited to mage and magical parties, that is to hit the entire spawn with an area affect spell that will stun or trap them, and use area damage such as fireball to quickly turn the creatures into Ash.  Again this is explotive of the AI and the spawn.  Would and entire tribe of ogres/monsters be standing so close together?  So we have at least five tactics, all of which make use of the AI and spawn location.

1) Luring and picking off. Perhaps favoured by rogues and craven backstabbers party.
2) Running past and using a choke point.  The method of fighters with a shield (for ac).
3) Arrows from two sides.  The method of an archer party.
4) Pacing, which is a variation of 1, where the party continues to move forward to bring more into the fight.
5) Stun and Explode.  Sometimes just explode with a powerful enough Magi.  The arcane and divine party.

All of these exploit the AI and spawn location.

Some of this could reduced at the sacrifice of saftey on the roads (and maybe increased server load).

Make the triggers for spawns out of line of sight of the spawn location, and have the monsters wander.  Static monsters are probably the biggest reason that tactic (1) is unrealistic.  Where the characters inch forward.  If the monsters wander around then  picking off monsters one at a time would require more skill and stealth.  I fear however that this is not practical in the world of Layonara or it would aready exist.

Just some thoughts.

[Dorganath]

Most spawn points are already out of the line of sight, so that one does not normally see them spawn in. There are exceptions to this, but as a general rule it holds.
  Wandering is already done by spawned encounters. Statically placed creatures do not wander. The reason for the difference is that spawned encounters eventually time out, whereas placed creatures do not. Wandering makes for an AI/pathfinding hit even when the area is empty (read: more lag). So you are correct...there are reasons things are the way they are.

[Dorganath]

lonnarin - 1/31/2007  4:54 PM
    Common Sense.

 Yes!

[wooley sluggs]

As a "noob" (ahem) about to submit a rogue type I am extremely confused by this discussion.  What, exactly, are the stealth tactics that are allowed (if any?)  I'm not trying to be contrary in a discussion  about a PW I don't know much about but this is kind of scaring me off.

Also, is there a place besides here (and a few other threads I found) where the exact rules as to what is considered cheating and what isn't can be found?  In short I'm used to PnP and, for example, having a rogue "distract" a few monsters to get them to leave the group, or backstabbing the sentry without alerting the pack is not only allowable but pretty much standard. After all even a high level rogue will usually lose in a fair fight.

Thanks.