HiPS for Rangers

[twidget658]

At a certain level, for example 17, a ranger character receives a special item that gives Hide in Plain Sight.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Easier to award it as a feat for the level.

[IDii]

Or multiclass to shadowdancer at some point.

Rangers aren't any more stealth specialists than rogues. So if you give rangers a free HiPS, then rogues should get it too. And of course then no one would get a single shadowdancer ever because HiPS is what the class is about.

[Reventage]

The Hide in Plain Sight ability was given to a certain ranger on a successful completion of his ECDQ so I sincerely doubt it will be granted to all rangers as a standard ability. Such special perks are something you need to work hard towards.

[Rayenoir]

Despite that Rangers in the D&D 3.5 ruleset now gain the ability to hide in plain sight in natural surroundings, they also have a reduced hit die from d10 to d8.  That is a tradeoff that I don't believe can be made here.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

IDii - 2/1/2007 2:14 PM Or multiclass to shadowdancer at some point. Rangers aren't any more stealth specialists than rogues. So if you give rangers a free HiPS, then rogues should get it too. And of course then no one would get a single shadowdancer ever because HiPS is what the class is about.

 Pfft!!!

[IDii]

Lalaith Va'lash - 2/2/2007  2:18 AM    

IDii - 2/1/2007 2:14 PM Or multiclass to shadowdancer at some point. Rangers aren't any more stealth specialists than rogues. So if you give rangers a free HiPS, then rogues should get it too. And of course then no one would get a single shadowdancer ever because HiPS is what the class is about.

 Pfft!!!

  Sorry, I forgot you Lala... you're special.  Though I do recall you agreeing with me about the HiPS thing some while ago.  :p

[twidget658]

I know who got what item. But to not consider it for that reason seems a bit unfair. If this does come about, then perhaps the ranger can be reimbursed with another item.
  "Work hard for..." is too vague. Getting a ranger to level 17+ takes A LOT of hard work. And over level 21 is a complete miracle.
  “…granted to all rangers…”  You mean all FOUR of them that actually have made it to this level?
  For the ones that are less than deserving, which is subjective, “Such special perks…” will never be granted.
   “Or multiclass to shadowdancer at some point.”  ”Rangers aren't any more stealth specialists than rogues. So if you give rangers a free HiPS, then rogues should get it too. And of course then no one would get a single shadowdancer ever because HiPS is what the class is about.”
  Why can’t more than one class have a certain special ability? Everyone and their mother (monster wise) have sneak attack.
   I prefer to stay one class, but I will be multi-classing for RP reasons, not special feat reasons.
   Only reason to have a shadow dancer is for HiPS?

[Pen N Popper]

Yes, the only reason for shadowdancer is HiPS. That is the defining feat for the class. The summoned shadow is not a strong fighter companion (mine just stands around too). Shadow daze is a nice plus but is just 1/day. Shadow evade is sweet but short 3/day, increasing in sweetness with level. Everything else overlaps with rogue.  
  For rogues taking levels of SD, they loose the chance to put skill points into lockpicking and traps. The rogues also loose sneak attack progression. Rangers would loose animal empathy skill points and spell slots. All of these are significant losses, in my opinion, and make taking five levels of SD class a balanced tradeoff for those classes.
  If you add HiPS as an ability to ranger, you would certainly have to add it to rogue as well right? Compared to a 12/5 rogue/shadowdancer, a level 17 rogue would have +3d6 sneak attack, +5 to locks/traps. Compared to a 12/5 ranger/shadowdancer, a level 17 ranger level 4 spells (plus more lower level ones), +5 animal empathy, and another favored enemy.
  Given this, I really think that by requiring five levels in shadowdancer that HiPS usefulness is balanced against the other class' progression.
  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have HiPS as a level 17 pure rogue. Why would that add to RP, though, and not just make a more powerful base class?

[Lalaith Va'lash]

Pen N Popper - 2/2/2007 7:28 AM   Yes, the only reason for shadowdancer is HiPS. That is the defining feat for the class. The summoned shadow is not a strong fighter companion (mine just stands around too). Shadow daze is a nice plus but is just 1/day. Shadow evade is sweet but short 3/day, increasing in sweetness with level. Everything else overlaps with rogue.
  For rogues taking levels of SD, they loose the chance to put skill points into lockpicking and traps. The rogues also loose sneak attack progression. Rangers would loose animal empathy skill points and spell slots. All of these are significant losses, in my opinion, and make taking five levels of SD class a balanced tradeoff for those classes.
  If you add HiPS as an ability to ranger, you would certainly have to add it to rogue as well right? Compared to a 12/5 rogue/shadowdancer, a level 17 rogue would have +3d6 sneak attack, +5 to locks/traps. Compared to a 12/5 ranger/shadowdancer, a level 17 ranger level 4 spells (plus more lower level ones), +5 animal empathy, and another favored enemy.
  Given this, I really think that by requiring five levels in shadowdancer that HiPS usefulness is balanced against the other class' progression.
  Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have HiPS as a level 17 pure rogue. Why would that add to RP, though, and not just make a more powerful base class?
 

 Well said.

[Reventage]

twidget658 - 2/2/2007  6:27 AM
"Work hard for..."[/i] is too vague.

Let me be clearer then: Such perks are a well deserved consequence of a completed ECDQ or a World leader quest. This is something everyone has an equal shot at, regardless of the class.

Unrelated to this, I get the impression that you consider the ranger class to be somehow inferior to the other classes power wise. That is not true. Furthermore rangers have a number of special abilities, a good portion of which are limited to that particular class only.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Allow me to go ahead and chip this in....

I always hated 3.0 Rangers SO much. It seemed to me that every powergamer would always have a couple levels in Ranger for Dual-wield, and then would just twink their character out the rest of the way with magic items and feats that made them the uber-killer. Then grab an animal companion like a juvenile silver dragon or some tripe.

That was in D&D. This is NWN. And while the raw power of the class is somewhat diminished in NWN, and the players of Layonara don't powerbuild like that, the Ranger class is still a very powerful class.

A Ranger's raw strength in combat is comparable to a Fighter's. When you factor in spellcasting, they exceed their nonmagical compatriots by quite a bit. They get Ambidex and Two-Weapon for free*, and then can get Focus, Imp. Crit, etc. as they like, and still have spells and an animal companion at their side.

When you also consider the number of skill points they get, it's a fine class to take. Not underpowered at all. Why add HiPS?

Now, for clarity's sake, I'll go ahead and say that the Rangers I've seen played on Layo haven't exactly fit the OMGPOWER-gamers that originally gave me my impression of the class, back in my early P&P days.

The reason 3.5 Rangers got so much more nifty stuff was because they were dialed back as a combat class, though Combat Styles are pretty sweet.

*Dual-Wield is only a TEENY bit worse than Ambidex and Two-Weapon, as you have to be in Light Armor.

[Talan Va'lash]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/2/2007  8:08 AM

Allow me to go ahead and chip this in....

I always hated 3.0 Rangers SO much. It seemed to me that every powergamer would always have a couple levels in Ranger for Dual-wield, and then would just twink their character out the rest of the way with magic items and feats that made them the uber-killer. Then grab an animal companion like a juvenile silver dragon or some tripe.

That was in D&D. This is NWN. And while the raw power of the class is somewhat diminished in NWN, and the players of Layonara don't powerbuild like that, the Ranger class is still a very powerful class.

A Ranger's raw strength in combat is comparable to a Fighter's. When you factor in spellcasting, they exceed their nonmagical compatriots by quite a bit. They get Ambidex and Two-Weapon for free*, and then can get Focus, Imp. Crit, etc. as they like, and still have spells and an animal companion at their side.

When you also consider the number of skill points they get, it's a fine class to take. Not underpowered at all. Why add HiPS?

Now, for clarity's sake, I'll go ahead and say that the Rangers I've seen played on Layo haven't exactly fit the OMGPOWER-gamers that originally gave me my impression of the class, back in my early P&P days.

The reason 3.5 Rangers got so much more nifty stuff was because they were dialed back as a combat class, though Combat Styles are pretty sweet.

*Dual-Wield is only a TEENY bit worse than Ambidex and Two-Weapon, as you have to be in Light Armor.

This is a pretty inaccurate post about the relative power of the ranger. Come on SV ;P

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Twidget, really, you can't persuade people by giving one line with no argument or content or reason why your idea is a good idea and then just rebut other peoples responses.

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Also, this is not 3.5. Rangers get hips at level 17 in 3.5. It's a different ruleset than 3.0 which is what we are using. Rogues also get hips in 3.5.

The NWN implementation of hips is NOTHING like the PnP rules for hips. The HiPS that rangers and rogues get is NOWHERE near as powerful was the HiPS in NWN, nor the HiPS + special related abilities that a shadowdancer gets.

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The NWN version of hips is a supernatural ability and there is no good reason IC or balance wise that it should be given as a class feature to the NWN Ranger.

[Rayenoir]

Two corrections, Talan:

the base Rogue class does not get HiPS in 3.5.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm
You may be thinking of the Assassin PrC
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm

HiPS works in PnP exactly as it does in NWN, save for the requirement of being within 10 feet of a shadow.  (Stealth mode forces 1/2 speed, thus removing any potential penalty at all toward the skill check):
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm

[twidget658]

Talan Va'lash - 2/2/2007  1:25 PM

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Twidget, really, you can't persuade people by giving one line with no argument or content or reason why your idea is a good idea and then just rebut other peoples responses.

I agree, Talan. I was actually trying to throw an idea out to get a discussion going. I prefer a "both sides of the coin" discussion, but it turned out one sided. I was trying to balance it out.

[IceDragonDuvessa]

I think that it should be mentioned as well that if the rangers were (which is extremely unlikely) given the NwN version of HiPS it would be significantly better than the DnD version rangers get as in DnD they are only allowed to use it in natural terrain where shadow dancers can do it anywhere there is shadow. If we were to give something comparative to rangers than a secondary HiPS feat would need to be made that recognizes the check box marked when the area was created.

[Talan Va'lash]

the base Rogue class does not get HiPS in 3.5.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm
You may be thinking of the Assassin PrC
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm

Granted

HiPS works in PnP exactly as it does in NWN, save for the requirement of being within 10 feet of a shadow.  (Stealth mode forces 1/2 speed, thus removing any potential penalty at all toward the skill check):
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm

The shadow requirement prevents hips spamming in the middle of a battle, that and no PnP DM would allow HiPS spamming of the sort that is possible in NWN.

[Desicardo]

As a player of a semi-well known ranger I will chime in on this from my experience.

First, in combat, a ranger is nowhere near the powerhouse that a fighter of the same level is.  At level 14, if I get into close combat, I die without some significant arcane buff assistance.  Light armor is a major major disadvantage in close combat.  One on one with a single enemy, rangers rock, but against a group of two or three, rangers die quick as they can't take the hits without the AC.   Coupled with the fact that rangers get two spell slots per spell level and those levels come rather slow (only 4 spell levels) the magical protections offered are minimal.  In my experience, the three strengths a ranger has are stealth, his ability with a bow, and his summons.  Level 3 summons rocks, but doesn't come until level 11 or 12 depending on wisdom so a ranger early on is limited.  Dual wield is nice but comes at the expense of AC in using a shield which again greatly shortens lifespan.  Even at level 14 I find that if I have to pull my swords, I am in a world of trouble especially if I don't have a summons close.  

Animal companions are nice but limited in power as well.  My wolf companion is nowhere near the strength of the level 3 summons and I would put it somewhere between level 1 and 2 in actual combat ability.  Couple that with the fact that when summons are used XP goes way down, parties often complain about their use so I seldom call on him unless I am alone and in trouble.  Granted, he can make an effective door stop to allow an escape, but how does a Folianite ranger RP sacrificing a wolf to effect his own escape?

Stealth mode limits a character to walking so if I go stealth I find I am way behind the rest of the party unlike mages that can go invis and run and keep up.  The one advantage I have is I can go pretty much anywhere and unless an enemy has truesight, I am able to sneak past.  It has been suggested before that at a certian level of hide and move silent, the character be able to stealth run which would make it worth putting a lot of points into those skills but for now, stealth is a skill with a lot of limitations as well as advantages.

All this said, rangers are powerful though class wise, but most parties on Layo I have been with don't know how to or won't use the ranger to his strengths.  Most parties don't take advantage of scouts as most know the terrain and what to expect in an area so the scout isn't needed.  We are reduced to air support and able to only target one enemy with our bow rather than a group like a mage, my experience is that rangers are often overlooked in party formation.  Even at lvl 14, I have a hard time finding parties that are anxious to use the skills of a ranger effectively.

Disclaimer: these are my opinions and not necessarily those of management.  Your milage may vary. See dealer for details. Offer void where prohibited.

[twidget658]

This thread is getting off topic, however there is some good thoughts here that may be lost.

Please, repost or post further comments about rangers here:

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34014&posts=18&mid=219148&highlight=what+ranger&highlightmode=1&action=search#M219148

or here:

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18646&posts=23&mid=112815&highlight=what+ranger&highlightmode=1&action=search#M112815

[Polak76]

In my opinion I think rangers are a little hard done by.

If we could somehow convert the Ranger to 3.5 ruleset many great opportunities open up, usually encouraging players to stick the ranger class than multiclass to better builds.

In the 'Ultimate Ranger'base class, I believe the character gains a few bonus feats are specific levels, all chosen from a limited array. From this list they can chose to stick with archery or aim for melee, dual weapon..etc.
Secondly after lvl 15 they gain Special Abilities every so often which are also chosen from a limited list.  THese include things like sneak attack 3d6, HIPS, Immunity to poisons (totem), Haste (totem)..etc.
They do not get spells to my knowledge but I could be wrong here.

Anyway as was previously stated, none of these things will aid your characters RP value, just the ability to shine in combat.

cheers,
Polak76

I've trialed this base class on another NWN world and had a lot of fun with it.